Glow Engines Discuss RC glow engines

glow engines are fading away

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Old 09-18-2017, 10:07 AM
  #26
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I would have expected more from the Novarossi, as we use a 8-6 on a .25 and get #s only slightly less. But , ya, Foras rock.
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Old 09-18-2017, 10:22 AM
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Standard mufflers often suck the life out of an engine. Using a tuned muffler makes them breathe like they should. My Jett .35 uses a tuned muffler. I'd expect the 8x6 to peak a bit over 20,000rpm when the engine finally breaks in and drops its nuts. 19k is respectable for a new engine set fairly rich. I should get it back on the bench and test it out again. I need to get my 56LX on the bench to find where it peaks before putting it into a model and getting it ripping.
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Old 09-20-2017, 07:31 AM
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I have glow, gas and electric. Gas is great until you get down below 20cc and then the extra weight of the engine and ignition become an issue. Yes, I know there are glow gas engines, but I prefer to have an ignition system to ensure there are no flameouts at low throttle.

Electric is OK, but I think anyone that goes that route stating the economy of electric is better isn't looking at the full picture. Batteries will need to be replaced every 2-3 years and then there is the need to handle LiPos very carefully. Don't drop a pack or put it away with a full charge. You may find a puffed pack or even a fire on your return. Relatively speaking, electric is high maintenance when compared with internal combustion engines. It surely has it's place, but all of us have to decide for ourselves where we want to spend our hard-earned $$$.

I doubt glow will die in the next decade.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ma_mulcahy View Post
I have glow, gas and electric. Gas is great until you get down below 20cc and then the extra weight of the engine and ignition become an issue. Yes, I know there are glow gas engines, but I prefer to have an ignition system to ensure there are no flameouts at low throttle.

Electric is OK, but I think anyone that goes that route stating the economy of electric is better isn't looking at the full picture. Batteries will need to be replaced every 2-3 years and then there is the need to handle LiPos very carefully. Don't drop a pack or put it away with a full charge. You may find a puffed pack or even a fire on your return. Relatively speaking, electric is high maintenance when compared with internal combustion engines. It surely has it's place, but all of us have to decide for ourselves where we want to spend our hard-earned $$$.

I doubt glow will die in the next decade.
I'm with you. All those things you said are accurate. I prefer electric because it's not messy like nitro nor anywhere near as expensive. I don't know how many flights I'll get out of a $25.00 gallon of glow fuel and maybe you can help me out with the math but if I get 15 minutes of flight every pint, I will fly for 2 hours on that gallon bottle until it's gone. I can't stand glow and I'm glad I don't use it.. now.... the gas engines are a huge benefit because from what I heard they are extremely efficient. If I wanted to fly for an hour, I can do that with one pint and a couple drops of oil in the tank. If I ever go back to ignition based flight I would definitely go that route..

With a battery, I can find deals on 3s 2200's for as little as four packs for 60 bucks. that's just over the cost of two gallons of nitro so even if I buy 12 packs and they only last me two years, assuming I don't crash I come out ahead in the game with the batteries because I'll get a boatload of flights out of them, however I will not even come close to competing with the efficiency of a true unleaded engine. I'm not getting an hour in the air no matter what. I do think glow engines are probably headed to the museums sooner than later, in favor of gasoline efficiency but before they're lost to our memories and the AMA museum of old stuff we used to use, those gas engines have to come down in price. Can anyone tell me the difference in price between say an OS Max .40 nitro engine and an equivalent sized gas one?


And even if I switch to gas, and I haven't done the math yet, I still think in three years I'll spend less on batteries than I do on gasoline, of course, that is subjective based on how many times you put your bird in the air.

I own about 50 packs and I take them all to the field with me. I fly all day and never have to stop to charge. I just do it when I get home.

One year in and they're all doing well thanks to the storage charge.

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Old 09-20-2017, 11:44 AM
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I have a Saito 4 stroke FG-11 gas engine that will fly for an hour on 8 ounces of gas. In two years of flying I have used 1 gallon of gas in the one plane. Can't say the same for glow, 15 minutes on the same 8 ounces on a similar sized glow 4 stroke. When you get into bigger planes, the 100CC and up, Gas 2 strokes are the only way to go. To get the same flight times from a quart of gas, you would need several large 6S or more packs of 5000 mah or better. Last I checked, those are in the area of $100 or more, each. They take quite some time to recharge correctly, sure you can fast charge them, but that reduces the pack life too. At even $3 a gallon, $100 buys a LOT of gas.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychron View Post
I'm with you. All those things you said are accurate. I prefer electric because it's not messy like nitro nor anywhere near as expensive. I don't know how many flights I'll get out of a $25.00 gallon of glow fuel and maybe you can help me out with the math but if I get 15 minutes of flight every pint, I will fly for 2 hours on that gallon bottle until it's gone. I can't stand glow and I'm glad I don't use it.. now.... the gas engines are a huge benefit because from what I heard they are extremely efficient. If I wanted to fly for an hour, I can do that with one pint and a couple drops of oil in the tank. If I ever go back to ignition based flight I would definitely go that route..

With a battery, I can find deals on 3s 2200's for as little as four packs for 60 bucks. that's just over the cost of two gallons of nitro so even if I buy 12 packs and they only last me two years, assuming I don't crash I come out ahead in the game with the batteries because I'll get a boatload of flights out of them, however I will not even come close to competing with the efficiency of a true unleaded engine. I'm not getting an hour in the air no matter what. I do think glow engines are probably headed to the museums sooner than later, in favor of gasoline efficiency but before they're lost to our memories and the AMA museum of old stuff we used to use, those gas engines have to come down in price. Can anyone tell me the difference in price between say an OS Max .40 nitro engine and an equivalent sized gas one?


And even if I switch to gas, and I haven't done the math yet, I still think in three years I'll spend less on batteries than I do on gasoline, of course, that is subjective based on how many times you put your bird in the air.

I own about 50 packs and I take them all to the field with me. I fly all day and never have to stop to charge. I just do it when I get home.

One year in and they're all doing well thanks to the storage charge.
I can see a few flaws here. A 2200 mah battery will give the power of about a .10 or .15 glow engine. They will sip fuel from a 4 oz. tank for 10 - 15 minutes with 1/3 left over. I can fly most of a year on a half gallon. So $12. I can even splurge on 20% fuel at that consumption. A glow .40 can not be compared to any gas engine, as none are made less than a .60 size. The weight of electronics make this less than ideal anyway. A normal .40 to .60 will use a bit less than an oz. per minute. There is a Norvel .40 gas/glow, but that is a different unproven animal. You have to remember the price of a charger. Mine was $150, batteries are $20, motors are about $20, as well as ESCs. So $60 per small plane. I can get a nice ASP or AP .15 for about $50, and a $5 servo and $5 tank that will last longer than a battery, and likely not get fried if it runs out. I would sum up to say that for me, anything up to a .25 is a wash comparing glow to electric. A .40 to maybe .90 I would definately go glow (for me even the smaller ones but that may just be me) mostly because you need two battery packs at $100 each to go out flying, and waste a couple hours before you want to go out, and then the wind will pick up. For a .90 and up, gas is the way. It is not my thing because of the room the planes take up, but the gas stuff is pretty nice lately. I would not make a decision on fuel prices for glow, as it is negligible when comparing to electric. The main price is the gas getting the bigger planes to the field in the van, maybe with a trailer, or even just the car. We pay $1.20 for a little litre of gasoline. Mix that with oil for even a gas plane, and the price is up there too. All in all it is smiles per gallon. I will still go glow, as I have way too many in the basement, and can get more at swap meets for $10. A new glow .40 to .60 is about $75 unless you want an OS. Gas stuff is about $200 and up. I only have a few electrics, mostly indoor. I could go on, maybe later.

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Old 09-22-2017, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
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I can see a few flaws here. A 2200 mah battery will give the power of about a .10 or .15 glow engine. They will sip fuel from a 4 oz. tank for 10 - 15 minutes with 1/3 left over. I can fly most of a year on a half gallon. So $12. I can even splurge on 20% fuel at that consumption. A glow .40 can not be compared to any gas engine, as none are made less than a .60 size. The weight of electronics make this less than ideal anyway. A normal .40 to .60 will use a bit less than an oz. per minute. There is a Norvel .40 gas/glow, but that is a different unproven animal. You have to remember the price of a charger. Mine was $150, batteries are $20, motors are about $20, as well as ESCs. So $60 per small plane. I can get a nice ASP or AP .15 for about $50, and a $5 servo and $5 tank that will last longer than a battery, and likely not get fried if it runs out. I would sum up to say that for me, anything up to a .25 is a wash comparing glow to electric. A .40 to maybe .90 I would definately go glow (for me even the smaller ones but that may just be me) mostly because you need two battery packs at $100 each to go out flying, and waste a couple hours before you want to go out, and then the wind will pick up. For a .90 and up, gas is the way. It is not my thing because of the room the planes take up, but the gas stuff is pretty nice lately. I would not make a decision on fuel prices for glow, as it is negligible when comparing to electric. The main price is the gas getting the bigger planes to the field in the van, maybe with a trailer, or even just the car. We pay $1.20 for a little litre of gasoline. Mix that with oil for even a gas plane, and the price is up there too. All in all it is smiles per gallon. I will still go glow, as I have way too many in the basement, and can get more at swap meets for $10. A new glow .40 to .60 is about $75 unless you want an OS. Gas stuff is about $200 and up. I only have a few electrics, mostly indoor. I could go on, maybe later.
So I want you to know I got hit with the 5 post a day limit when I thought things through and did some math assuming you ran the tank dry each flight.So here goes:

What I came up with was, if you're only using half a gallon a year, I am going to do everything I can to get you out there flying more because at 4 oz per flight you're using a half gallon every 16 flights. I spent $180 on 12 batteries that will last me, conservatively with storage charging as part of the ritual, 3 years maybe more but let's pretend. Based on the fact that I fly 16 times each trip to the field, recharging 4 to keep me going, at about 12-15 minutes per flight, (I actually fly more than that but lets just focus on the 2200's) if I were burning nitro, I'd be at about half a gallon each time I go out too. so $13. Assuming now that you do the same and spend 13 each time you go out, and we're flying buddies and do it all the time, and we go to the field 16 times per year, and fly 16 times each visit, the fuel costs are $25 a gallon and that comes to 8 gallons cause you burn a half gallon each visit to the field.

So that's $200 in nitro costs for the year comes to $600 over three years compared to my $180 in batteries and pennies for recharges until I have to find 4-pack deals again. . So I break even the first year, the second year is free flying, and the third year I hope I've saved enough to buy a whole new set of lipo's after some of them tank.

Even if I factor in the 1/3 tank or 1.2oz you come home with after every flight, I still break even early in the second year and then end up in the same place year three.

But I digress, and agree with you wholeheartedly. This hobby costs more getting to and from the field in the monster trucks we have to drive to carry our passion in, than anything else.

Smiles per gallon/watt hour indeed my friend. Here's to hoping every landing is a three point spectacular.


More to the point of the thread though, do I think the glow engines are fading away, I say, slowly. They're on a long slow inevitable march to being relegated to the shelves of the AMA and OS factory museums. As soon as this high efficiency petrol engines run great at all sizes and provide an hour of flight per tank, I believe we'll start to see a move toward them, eventually displacing the glow engine all but entirely. But you know the drill.. as long as someone is willing to buy glow engines, they'll still produce them even if they've got their own line of brand new shiny gas engines waiting to take their place.

I'm 44.. I don't expect to see it in my lifetime.Maybe my son's but he has no interest in the hobby yet.. occasionally he'll watch me fly and enjoy it, but it's rare.
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Old 09-22-2017, 03:53 AM
  #33
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If it's about money, you're in the wrong hobby.

RC is expensive. It's also about having fun, and having preferences in equipment.

It's not about proving that one method of power is superior to another.

I'm taking a glow model, along with an electric, to the field today. Tomorrow, I plan to maiden a gasser.

It's all good. Have fun, and relax.
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Old 09-22-2017, 04:39 AM
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If it's about money, you're in the wrong hobby.

Agreed. But then everything fun costs money. Even bowling lol. Still, I think even you shop for the best deal right? I think it's really about finding the balance between what you can afford and what's going to provide the most fun. And honestly I don't think any of us think about how much that gas or those batteries cost when we're tearing up the sky.

RC is expensive. It's also about having fun, and having preferences in equipment.

Agreed. I try to mix it up. I built a hovercraft with some spare motors and 6040 props and some foam board for days when I can't fly but I still use all my air radio equipment.. I've got a thread out there that covers the thing and some videos to show off. I'd like to build an airboat next I think. And then a scratch glider. I'm just not sure how to do the long wingspan low profile wing with dollar tree foam board. I'll get there I'm sure.

It's not about proving that one method of power is superior to another.

Agreed, each has its merits, however, it's hard to debate that the most efficient power plants right now are the ones using unleaded gas with a little 2 stroke oil mixed in. When I started in the 80's I think the only thing you could get was a nitro engine. Batteries would keep you in the air for a 90 seconds and they'd weigh 20 lbs. Things have changed quite a bit. I never thought I'd see batteries keep up with nitro as far as flight times go, but that requires the right combo of prop and motor.

I'm taking a glow model, along with an electric, to the field today. Tomorrow, I plan to maiden a gasser.

Super jealous you have all three and on both counts.

It's all good. Have fun, and relax.
For sure. That's what it's all about right? I hope all your flights are successful and if I can shake whatever is ailing me right now, I'm going to try to get out tomorrow morning also. Found a new club with a field closer to home. Get 6 free guest flights until they require registration and my current membership runs out end of December.
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Old 09-22-2017, 07:19 AM
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I just figured $0.55 a flight if I use it up. Lekkie batteries last about 50 to 100 flights if you are lucky. I am not because I don't use them enough. I find that I get bored after 3 flights on a plane any given day. I have a few .049 and .06 planes that might be 2 bits ($.25) a flight, and are just as much fun if it is not windy. They are about equal to a 1200 mah battery type plane. Actually I will be working on a leckie today about that size. But will not doom my glows yet. You are in Warren, not really far. Bit over an hour if the border isn't busy.
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:24 AM
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I just figured $0.55 a flight if I use it up. Lekkie batteries last about 50 to 100 flights if you are lucky. I am not because I don't use them enough. I find that I get bored after 3 flights on a plane any given day. I have a few .049 and .06 planes that might be 2 bits ($.25) a flight, and are just as much fun if it is not windy. They are about equal to a 1200 mah battery type plane. Actually I will be working on a leckie today about that size. But will not doom my glows yet. You are in Warren, not really far. Bit over an hour if the border isn't busy.

Oh heck, no. You're right, just about an hour away unless the crossings are jammed. I hear Maddy Maroon has the ok to buld the new span from both sides. We'll see how that goes..

I hope I never get bored. I'm kind of a junkie, and I bring like 6 aircraft to the field with me. 4 that'll fly on 2200s and one or two that fly on an 800mah 3s. When I go I'm usually there to look like a lobster when I leave. I can't pry myself away.

My next build is going to be a glider that will fit a 2200 carry a 600mah video transmitter a mobius cam and the wire to connect it to the video TX, and fly on an 1806 motor. I built the pun jet and it doesn't agree with me so I'll reclaim those parts. Can't fly it to save my life anyway, so I'm looking at fpv alternatives that'll stay up for an hour where I can do wide angle fpv videos. I'd love to do that kind of thing.

I'm concerned about what to expect. I'm going to shoot for 80" so I'm concerned about if I need carbon fiber rods and whatnot.
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:48 AM
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A cheap 2 meter glider like a Gentle Lady sounds good with an electric motor on the nose. Carbon fibre is overkill at those speeds. Not sure about one hour flights unless the thermal gods are on your side. I still fly my Amptique with a brushed motor and two A123 batteries if it is dead calm out. A 3 cell LiPo melted the first motor, and the original 7 cell sub C pack was a stone. The first fire of the LiPo kept me away from them for a while. The A123 is surprisingly good with that plane. Maybe only 7 minute flights though. They are a little heavier than LiPo. I do lie the elctric for gliders rather than a glow power pod. You can go up a few times.
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Old 09-22-2017, 09:06 AM
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A cheap 2 meter glider like a Gentle Lady sounds good with an electric motor on the nose. Carbon fibre is overkill at those speeds. Not sure about one hour flights unless the thermal gods are on your side. I still fly my Amptique with a brushed motor and two A123 batteries if it is dead calm out. A 3 cell LiPo melted the first motor, and the original 7 cell sub C pack was a stone. The first fire of the LiPo kept me away from them for a while. The A123 is surprisingly good with that plane. Maybe only 7 minute flights though. They are a little heavier than LiPo. I do lie the elctric for gliders rather than a glow power pod. You can go up a few times.
yeah the sub c packs are rough and there's like 20 lbs of steel in each one isnt there? lol


So we've got dollar tree here in the states and they sell Adams Reddi Board... something to that name. We all call it dollar tree foam board. That'll be my medium and liberal applications of hot glue so I hope you're right about the spar. I've kind of fallen in love with the method. It's strong enough (most of the time) and it takes the hot glue well and heck..nothing beats building something sweet with $5.00 worth of 20x30" paper coated foam board.

one regret.. I can't mount a nitro on it.
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Old 09-22-2017, 09:24 AM
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Oh, the foam will need some sort of spar. I use the blue fan fold stuff for little foamies. (FFF) A little stronger. Lowes doesn't always carry it any more.
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Old 09-22-2017, 09:59 AM
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I went to gas for 4 years land got tired of the smell of raw gas and gas exhaust, gas engine exhaust makes me sick, I decided to go back to glow, I tried electric and did not like at all so now am back into 4 stroke glow and am loving that glow exhaust smell again and loving it.
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Old 09-22-2017, 05:15 PM
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Oh, the foam will need some sort of spar. I use the blue fan fold stuff for little foamies. (FFF) A little stronger. Lowes doesn't always carry it any more.
I've seen something similar in pink at home depot, but I'm not feeling the pink aircraft lol. I have seen fanfold at lowes still, difference is it's perforated and doesn't have the properties of the original fanfold. I hear the pink stuff does though.... I've been tempted a few times.

And I agree about the smell of nitro. It really is a pleasant smell.
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Old 09-22-2017, 06:01 PM
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I kind'na like knowing what is going on inside an engine when doing a fast fly by, and the Aaaaaaaaaarrr I hear as it goes by, you can't get that with E-power

Jim
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Old 09-22-2017, 06:04 PM
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I kind'na like knowing what is going on inside an engine when doing a fast fly by, and the Aaaaaaaaaarrr I hear as it goes by, you can't get that with E-power

Jim
Sounds a little like this right?


Ahh I can almost smell it now....
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Old 09-22-2017, 06:12 PM
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well yyeeaa, but with a bit more zip, like this

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Old 09-22-2017, 06:25 PM
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well yyeeaa, but with a bit more zip, like this

https://youtu.be/NSTapqDT_ns?t=72
That's some pretty fine flying there and I knew that's what they were supposed to sound like! lol

Every time I go the club, one of the older guys fires up their nitro and it sounds like it's running too rich so I tell em "hey guy, I think you're running a little rich there. I think that needle valve could use some tweaking"

Then I get a look like I'm some kind of jerk with a bunch of electrics telling him how to tune his engine and so I let em get 5 minutes out of a tank instead of what they should be getting. I should send your video over to the club.. play it at one of the meetings "all you guys with gassers, listen up" then without saying a word, play that video. "did you hear that? your engines should all sound like that. Find your needle valves!"
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Old 09-22-2017, 06:38 PM
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I have the same plane, a GP 60 size ShoeString, mine has the OS 61FX (looks like I had the same Pittes muffler too) and mine is not as fast as the one in the video, I am wondering if the one in the video has a Heli engine in it or some other higher powered engine in it

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Old 09-22-2017, 06:57 PM
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Maybe some high pitch prop selection would help on a clean plane like that. Like a 10-10, 11-10" Not sure what a .61 needs, but something like that.
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Old 09-22-2017, 07:25 PM
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I had an APC 11X8 on my OS 61FX, with the pitts muffler and burning 20% Nitro it turned only 11,800,, I had to replaced the bearings, the Liner and Piston was in great shape.. once rebuilt I welded up an Exhaust Manifold and mounted a 50 size Century Heli pipe on it and it turned 13,800 Peaked on the 20%,,, but I can not get a constant tuning-setting,, I have found the Remote Needle needs new gaskets, I will order them and rebuild the assembly,, once I get it to keep a constant setting she will be fun to fly, but I think I will need a bigger boat, I mean bigger Fuel Tank

Jim

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Old 09-22-2017, 07:51 PM
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Works out to 110 mph on paper with 8" pitch and 13,800 rpm. YMMV
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Old 09-23-2017, 07:46 AM
  #50
acdii
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Capron, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychron View Post
That's some pretty fine flying there and I knew that's what they were supposed to sound like! lol

Every time I go the club, one of the older guys fires up their nitro and it sounds like it's running too rich so I tell em "hey guy, I think you're running a little rich there. I think that needle valve could use some tweaking"

Then I get a look like I'm some kind of jerk with a bunch of electrics telling him how to tune his engine and so I let em get 5 minutes out of a tank instead of what they should be getting. I should send your video over to the club.. play it at one of the meetings "all you guys with gassers, listen up" then without saying a word, play that video. "did you hear that? your engines should all sound like that. Find your needle valves!"
Get one plane with a popper on it, tune it like you mean it, and fly that every so often just to show them you do know how. There is nothing sweeter than a well tuned Saito. I have one on my Somethin Xtra, and always get compliments on how smooth it runs.
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