SAITO 220
06-14-2005, 02:57 PM
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SAITO 220
Has anybody heard an actual relese date for this new Saito 220? It was supposed to be last month but they set it back to the end of this month. I really hope they dont postpone it again! I have been waiting for this engine for months.(I heard about it on RCU before Horizon even knew about it.)
Marc
Marc
06-27-2005, 01:05 PM
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RE: SAITO 220
And you didnt buy it yet?!?!?! What are you nuts? I have one on order at my LHS and I'm really excited because horizon said they're read to ship. I'll be waiting for tach. readings and flight reports. Can you imagine a lightweight single cylinder four stroke that compare's to the moki 210!?? I can't wait.
Marc
Marc
06-28-2005, 12:50 AM
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RE: SAITO 220
ORIGINAL: tIANci
The 180 is a gas guzzler ...
The 180 is a gas guzzler ...
Have always read two things about this engines:
Shakes the plane to pieces and is a gas guzzler. Have many Saito's myself and did not find any disproportional behaviour with this one, I just love it. If the 220 is anything like the 180 I will find a place for it.
06-28-2005, 04:44 AM
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RE: SAITO 220
well, the 180 "guzzles" more fuel than a 150, a 150 "guzzles" more fuel than a 120, a 120 "guzzles" more fuel than a 91.... etc, etc, etc....
[:-]
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06-28-2005, 08:38 AM
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RE: SAITO 220
*Some* of Saitos are known for their high fuel consumption and vibration for the displacement. The 82 and 180 are the 2 prime suspects. Notice what's in common with these two engines? These two are the most bored-out engines that Saito has come out with. If you noticed, the Saito 82 (29mm bore x 20.4 mm stroke) has the same bore as the Saito 100. The Saito 180 (36mm bore x 28.6mm stroke), as you know it, is also a design of extreme bore-out-ism. What this means for 4-strokes is that the overhead intake/exhaust port can be much larger, hence more power for a given casing, and more fuel consumption. I have a Saito 91 (28.2mm bore x 24mm stroke), and it drinks less fuel than my Saito 82.
Now, the Zeus 220, (38mm bore x 32mm stroke) is only slightly 5% larger in bore than the Saito 180. It's not another bore-out of the 120 casing. So fuel consumption should be just 5% higher if both peak at the same rpm. However, you'll most likely run the Zeus w/ a larger prop at much lower rpm than the 180, say, by about 1000 rpm lower. So real-life fuel consumption may actually be less for all you know.
Regarding vibration, I think it's safe to say that for 4-strokes, he who has the strongest torque-to-weight ratio has the strongest apparent vibration, for a given airframe. Additionally, airframe really matters for vibration perceived. If you put a high torque 4-stroke onto a smaller (and usually lighter and softer) airframe, the entire plane will seem to vibrate more than if you place the same engine onto a larger, heavier, and stiffer airframe. So, Hans' Saito 180 may be on a 13-lb Extra and not vibrate too badly; but Joe's Saito 180 on Funtana 90 will seem to tear it apart.
Now, the Zeus 220, (38mm bore x 32mm stroke) is only slightly 5% larger in bore than the Saito 180. It's not another bore-out of the 120 casing. So fuel consumption should be just 5% higher if both peak at the same rpm. However, you'll most likely run the Zeus w/ a larger prop at much lower rpm than the 180, say, by about 1000 rpm lower. So real-life fuel consumption may actually be less for all you know.
Regarding vibration, I think it's safe to say that for 4-strokes, he who has the strongest torque-to-weight ratio has the strongest apparent vibration, for a given airframe. Additionally, airframe really matters for vibration perceived. If you put a high torque 4-stroke onto a smaller (and usually lighter and softer) airframe, the entire plane will seem to vibrate more than if you place the same engine onto a larger, heavier, and stiffer airframe. So, Hans' Saito 180 may be on a 13-lb Extra and not vibrate too badly; but Joe's Saito 180 on Funtana 90 will seem to tear it apart.
06-28-2005, 08:58 AM
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RE: SAITO 220
ORIGINAL: seanychen
So, Hans' Saito 180 may be on a 13-lb Extra and not vibrate too badly; but Joe's Saito 180 on Funtana 90 will seem to tear it apart.
So, Hans' Saito 180 may be on a 13-lb Extra and not vibrate too badly; but Joe's Saito 180 on Funtana 90 will seem to tear it apart.
BTW it is mounted on a DUBRO mount.
First
Renovations:
Stab in top of fuse to eliminate the rudder-pitch coupling
Put in anhedral to eliminate the rudder-roll coupling
Replaced the TT PRO by the Saito
06-28-2005, 09:25 AM
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RE: SAITO 220
ORIGINAL: seanychen
The Saito 180 (36mm bore x 28.6mm stroke), as you know it, is also a design of extreme bore-out-ism.
The Saito 180 (36mm bore x 28.6mm stroke), as you know it, is also a design of extreme bore-out-ism.
type / bore / stroke
FA-120S 32 24.8 (bore / divided by stroke) = 1,29
FA-150H 34 27.6 (bore / divided by stroke) = 1,23
FA-180H 36 28.6 (bore / divided by stroke) = 1,26
The 1.20 has the highest bore/stroke ratio
06-28-2005, 10:40 AM
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RE: SAITO 220
I never owned the 120, and I've heard 120 is very good at fuel economy. Maybe the 120 just doesn't have maximized intake/exhaust ports above its big bore, like its bored-out brother?
06-28-2005, 02:12 PM
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RE: SAITO 220
I don't know much about the bore/stroke ritio's but I have a Saito 120 and it's the best engine i've ever owned. If the Saito 220 is anything like the 120 It will be a winner!! The 120 is on a 65" OMP yak profile and at 7 1/2 lbs. It's awsome! The 120 runs very smooth and bearly shakes this very light airframe. I think it has a lot to do with the idle mixture. I fly this plane with a 12 oz. tank and get 15 min. flights with fuel to spare. Fly around at 1/4 throttle, hover about 1/2 throttle, vertical pullout of hover at full throttle like a rocket!! Sips fuel. I think you get the idea. I think the 220 with it's original case design will be great.
Marc 540
Marc 540
06-28-2005, 02:59 PM
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RE: SAITO 220
ORIGINAL: marc 540
I don't know much about the bore/stroke ritio's but I have a Saito 120 and it's the best engine i've ever owned. If the Saito 220 is anything like the 120 It will be a winner!! The 120 is on a 65" OMP yak profile and at 7 1/2 lbs. It's awsome! The 120 runs very smooth and bearly shakes this very light airframe. I think it has a lot to do with the idle mixture. I fly this plane with a 12 oz. tank and get 15 min. flights with fuel to spare. Fly around at 1/4 throttle, hover about 1/2 throttle, vertical pullout of hover at full throttle like a rocket!! Sips fuel. I think you get the idea. I think the 220 with it's original case design will be great.
Marc 540
I don't know much about the bore/stroke ritio's but I have a Saito 120 and it's the best engine i've ever owned. If the Saito 220 is anything like the 120 It will be a winner!! The 120 is on a 65" OMP yak profile and at 7 1/2 lbs. It's awsome! The 120 runs very smooth and bearly shakes this very light airframe. I think it has a lot to do with the idle mixture. I fly this plane with a 12 oz. tank and get 15 min. flights with fuel to spare. Fly around at 1/4 throttle, hover about 1/2 throttle, vertical pullout of hover at full throttle like a rocket!! Sips fuel. I think you get the idea. I think the 220 with it's original case design will be great.
Marc 540
The newer ones with the rectangular intake pipe are very fuel thirsty with not much torque.
Stelios
06-28-2005, 09:45 PM
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RE: SAITO 220
Which Saito? My personal favorite is the FA-120, more specifically the ABC version. It's heavier, but it's just a sweet engine. I have two ABCs, and one AAC. I can't tell any real difference in the way they run or the available power, I just like the larger fins on the ABC, I think it looks better.
Stelios:
The FA-120 with the curved pipe was not the older or newer version, it was an interim engine. The first really hot FA-120. It was the first "FA-120S" engine.Not only did it have the smoothly curved intake pipe, it had a lot hotter cam than the others, and a free flow muffler. It did not stay in production very long, the few people who got one either loved it or hated it. It was a fuel hungry engine, but it gave the power to match the fuel rate. It was also pretty loud with the stock muffler, and it would never idle well because of the hot cam.
The earlier and later engines all have what you called the "Rectangular" intake. Properly adjusted the fuel rate is not at all high.
First picture attached is the ABC 120 cylinder on the left, the AAC "S" type cylinder on the right. The difference in fin size is easily seen, and you can see the different intake pipes.
Second and third pictures are an ABC FA-120 on my Ultra Stick, it is to be replaced with the AAC engine, the ABC 130 is going on a twin.
Stelios:
The FA-120 with the curved pipe was not the older or newer version, it was an interim engine. The first really hot FA-120. It was the first "FA-120S" engine.Not only did it have the smoothly curved intake pipe, it had a lot hotter cam than the others, and a free flow muffler. It did not stay in production very long, the few people who got one either loved it or hated it. It was a fuel hungry engine, but it gave the power to match the fuel rate. It was also pretty loud with the stock muffler, and it would never idle well because of the hot cam.
The earlier and later engines all have what you called the "Rectangular" intake. Properly adjusted the fuel rate is not at all high.
First picture attached is the ABC 120 cylinder on the left, the AAC "S" type cylinder on the right. The difference in fin size is easily seen, and you can see the different intake pipes.
Second and third pictures are an ABC FA-120 on my Ultra Stick, it is to be replaced with the AAC engine, the ABC 130 is going on a twin.
06-29-2005, 04:48 AM
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RE: SAITO 220
William Robinson... the top of your 120S ABC looks like the top of my 150S...
(and I'm surprised you haven't weighed in on my Saito 180 Higher Compression thread!! [
]....)
[:-]
(and I'm surprised you haven't weighed in on my Saito 180 Higher Compression thread!! [
]....)[:-]
06-29-2005, 07:53 AM
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RE: SAITO 220
To William:
All I said about FA-120s with curved intake pipe was just what I saw a couple of weeks ago when I saw one in the club swinging APC 16x7 at 8,700, idling at 1,900 and "drinking" less than mine.
Not to mention its attractive stock muffler.
I would easily exchange mine with this one.
Stelios
06-29-2005, 10:03 AM
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RE: SAITO 220
Stelios:
With a 16x7 prop the FA-120S is not going to turn any great rpm, and with the lower rpm and big prop keeping it out of its high power band the fuel rate will stay low also. Try it with a 15x6 - you'll see the power climb greatly, and the fuel rate will go up along with the power.
Magnet:
The ABC cylinders for the 120, 150, and 180 were almost exactly the same size in the outside dimension. Where the difference could be seen was the square flange at the base for the mounting screws. Except for the one version FA-120S the intake and exhaust parts could all be interchanged mechanically. There are minor variations in the carbs, but even there one can be used in place of the other.
The FA-120S version with the curved pipe had the intake fitted with an o-ring seal similar to the mid block engines, all the other big block engines have the intake fitted with gland nuts for retention. All Saitos use a threaded exhaust mounting.
Pictures:
1) The limited production FA-120S
2) Regular production FA-120S
3) Limited FA-120S muffler. Note it's 5" long.
4) The "Standard" cast muffler currently supplied.
Bill.
PS: Magnet, give me a few minutes and recheck your 180 thread. wr.
With a 16x7 prop the FA-120S is not going to turn any great rpm, and with the lower rpm and big prop keeping it out of its high power band the fuel rate will stay low also. Try it with a 15x6 - you'll see the power climb greatly, and the fuel rate will go up along with the power.
Magnet:
The ABC cylinders for the 120, 150, and 180 were almost exactly the same size in the outside dimension. Where the difference could be seen was the square flange at the base for the mounting screws. Except for the one version FA-120S the intake and exhaust parts could all be interchanged mechanically. There are minor variations in the carbs, but even there one can be used in place of the other.
The FA-120S version with the curved pipe had the intake fitted with an o-ring seal similar to the mid block engines, all the other big block engines have the intake fitted with gland nuts for retention. All Saitos use a threaded exhaust mounting.
Pictures:
1) The limited production FA-120S
2) Regular production FA-120S
3) Limited FA-120S muffler. Note it's 5" long.
4) The "Standard" cast muffler currently supplied.
Bill.
PS: Magnet, give me a few minutes and recheck your 180 thread. wr.
06-29-2005, 10:20 AM
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RE: SAITO 220
Some more pictures.
1) An overall view showing the curved intake more clearly, and the long muffler.
2) The muffler outlet.
3) Those among you who are sharp eyed may have noticed (in the earlier picture) it came with an air bleed carb.
And for those who scoff at the air bleed carbs, the one on the big block Saito was more precisely adjustable than the current TN types. If you didn't know how, or refused to read the instructions the AB carb was a royal pain. The TN is easier to set, and cheaper to make.
Bill.
1) An overall view showing the curved intake more clearly, and the long muffler.
2) The muffler outlet.
3) Those among you who are sharp eyed may have noticed (in the earlier picture) it came with an air bleed carb.
And for those who scoff at the air bleed carbs, the one on the big block Saito was more precisely adjustable than the current TN types. If you didn't know how, or refused to read the instructions the AB carb was a royal pain. The TN is easier to set, and cheaper to make.
Bill.
06-29-2005, 11:32 AM
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RE: SAITO 220
I am responsibly sorry for causing this thread to be shifted in subject. Man, the power of going off tangent 
. Perhaps we can move the Saito 120 history posts to a new thread, so people coming here will find info regarding the 220, like the title says.
. Perhaps we can move the Saito 120 history posts to a new thread, so people coming here will find info regarding the 220, like the title says.
06-29-2005, 12:02 PM
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RE: SAITO 220
Now I have dilemma, my LHS has two Saito 2.20s but neither is a GK and neither has the pump, what to do, what to do. As Ace Ventura would say, " Ok,I'll just wait longer." It's mighty tempting though.
06-29-2005, 02:24 PM
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RE: SAITO 220
I do not believe a pump is nesessary with this engine. With every Saito I ever had (72-100-and 120) I never had a fuel draw problem. But I always had my tank either right behind the firewall or opposite side of fuse 0n a profile. Mabey to have tank on the C/G a pump would be a good idea.
Marc 540
Marc 540
06-29-2005, 02:50 PM
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RE: SAITO 220
To the best of my knowledge Saito has never had a "Real" fuel pump. What they have is instead an air pump to pressurize the tank, similar to the Cline and Iron Bay systems. But instead of using a regulator they used a valve in line as a calibrated leak to control the fuel pressure.
I've never set one up this way, but it seems to me that it would be extremely difficult to get a good idle and top end both with a given pressure setting.
Bill.
I've never set one up this way, but it seems to me that it would be extremely difficult to get a good idle and top end both with a given pressure setting.
Bill.
06-29-2005, 02:51 PM
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RE: SAITO 220
Marc, I just talked to a lady at Horizon and there is no so called pumped 2.20. You can buy the pump and larger bore carb as a $114.00 accessory. I locked up one of the silver 2.20s and will go get it in a day or two along with the H9 Cessna 182.
