Welcome to Club SAITO !
11-08-2014, 06:36 PM
So there are an infinite number of tank locations that could be used
11-09-2014, 02:11 AM
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G'day Saito lovers. I have not posted anything here for quite a while. When I last posted some time mid last year, we were living in Dubbo, New South Wales, Australia. We have since moved to a little village called Gundaroo near Canberra, the Capital City of Australia. Moving some 40 models was a complete pain in the derriere. I sold a few before we moved but most made the trip OK. I removed most engines and gave them the ATF treatment and have been starting to use some recently. They all seem to have made the trip OK.
I have now joined a club in Canberra called Belconnen Model Aero Club. Great synthetic grass strip and lots of members. I have been working through my models and getting them back into the air. My old Kadet Senior with its Saito 62 has been flown several times and the engine and the model get favourable comments; the engine for its reliability and power and the model for its really slow flight.
Glow is in a minority here. Most models are electric and come from a certain Asian supplier who will remain nameless. There are a few Saitos, OS four strokes and Thunder Tiger four strokes but I seem to be the only one with an Enya and only one other owns a Laser four stroke.
Glad to see this thread is still going. I have been passing on the Dave Hobbs method for tuning Saitos and have made many Saito owners very happy with his advice.
Hope to be here more often. Currently building a 105% Playboy Senior for a Saito 62 and a little "vertical drag racing".
Mike in Gundaroo (Oz)
I have now joined a club in Canberra called Belconnen Model Aero Club. Great synthetic grass strip and lots of members. I have been working through my models and getting them back into the air. My old Kadet Senior with its Saito 62 has been flown several times and the engine and the model get favourable comments; the engine for its reliability and power and the model for its really slow flight.
Glow is in a minority here. Most models are electric and come from a certain Asian supplier who will remain nameless. There are a few Saitos, OS four strokes and Thunder Tiger four strokes but I seem to be the only one with an Enya and only one other owns a Laser four stroke.
Glad to see this thread is still going. I have been passing on the Dave Hobbs method for tuning Saitos and have made many Saito owners very happy with his advice.
Hope to be here more often. Currently building a 105% Playboy Senior for a Saito 62 and a little "vertical drag racing".
Mike in Gundaroo (Oz)
11-09-2014, 03:55 AM
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Glad to see you back MIke and glad you like your new digs. I just ordered a Slo Poke, Great Planes (kit) and it will wear my recently acquired Saito .50 circa 1995 but had never been run. I'll see if I can find out what that PlayBoy Senior looks like. Do you use Bolly props by any chance, I really like them? My four strokes are 8 Saitos and one Enya .46MKII. As time goes on I'd would like to once again have a small OS and at least one LASER. Thanks for the kind words.
11-09-2014, 04:42 AM
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Thanks Dave. I had to sell a few things to make the move but I managed to keep 12 Saitos from 30 to 120 size plus some other brand four strokes as well. The Playboy Senior is a large pylon type free flight model from about 1940. It is used in old timer competitions and the 105% version can have a four stroke up to 65 size. I am not really interested in serious competition and I am building it more as a sports model though it may get an outing in a comp for fun occasionally. Lately I have flown a number of hanger queens for the first time. A Giant Sportster and its OS Gemini 160 flew last week after gathering dust for three years. I built a Four Star 120 for a friend but he decided to go all electric and gave it to me with its ASP 180. It had its first outing about three weeks ago. Next hanger queen to have an outing is my Sig Astrohog with a Saito 72. It used to have an 82 but that is now in another model. I think the 72 should be fine. It has a lot more power than was being used back in 1957 when the "Hog" made its appearance.
I have a Great Planes Slow Poke like the one you are building. Mine is an ARF which belonged to a friend who died suddenly a couple of years ago. He had an ASP 61 in it but its valves leaked badly so I replaced it with an OS 62V four stroke as that engine is a direct plug in replacement for the ASP. Fitting one of my Saitos would have meant modifications to the wooden engine mount. They fly really well but only a mother could love the way they look.
Cheers
Mike in Gundaroo (Oz)
I have a Great Planes Slow Poke like the one you are building. Mine is an ARF which belonged to a friend who died suddenly a couple of years ago. He had an ASP 61 in it but its valves leaked badly so I replaced it with an OS 62V four stroke as that engine is a direct plug in replacement for the ASP. Fitting one of my Saitos would have meant modifications to the wooden engine mount. They fly really well but only a mother could love the way they look.
Cheers
Mike in Gundaroo (Oz)
11-09-2014, 05:02 AM
I'll see if I can find out what that PlayBoy Senior looks like.
Seriously, just grabbed a newer gen 91 for a song and can't wait for it to arrive and go through it. From the problems I had with my first Saito, (a 91) wondered if that has it or if anyone found a replacement rod with phosphor bronze on the big end. Early gen that size does not.
That muffler though, reminds me of the term "Only a mother could love".
11-09-2014, 05:10 AM
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429, I only have two Saitos with the bushed rods, an early high compression .80 and even earlier .45 with the removable head. I have never had any issue with the non bushed rods. What happened to the .91 you spoke of. Thanks.
11-09-2014, 05:33 AM
First was bought used, mounted in the Skybolt and ran for a dozen flights with the only issue the throttle linkage coming loose, (my own fault) about halfway through that series. With their miserly fuel burn was bloody exhausted by the time the tank ran dry.
With the cowl mounted motor seemed to overheat the first flight and landed with it pretty hard to turn. Went home and pulled it apart to find the bottom end stuck to the pin. Worked it loose with heat and oil and checked out the surfaces. Could find no signs of damage, but decided to polish it and recheck fit.
Engine went back together and with the ducting design put close to 300 trouble free flights on it. At that point had a repeat and this time the bottom end of the rod was not as pretty. Found one NIB and put it back together. Put another 10-12 flights before selling it in favor of the 100 powered Super Bolt I had been lusting over for a long time, (only regret was not swapping that Saito for a spare OS FS).
Here's where it gets fun. Over the course of the next 12-14 months the new owner did some damage to the plane, including a hard nose over with high throttle, repaired it and flew it a few times before the engine seized again. This time he sent it out and the repair shop told him I had put the rod in backwards. This is not my first engine, nor the first Saito, (nor even the first Saito I had done for him. That engine still going strong) so he was hoping for a refund. If just after purchase I would have been easily swayed that way, but knowing his throttle management, (we call it here "The Metro Catering School of Flight") knowing he stored his craft in an unheated and moist garage, and knowing he flew it many times in that excess of a year span, could not justify it.
Anyway, the point of this is I seem to remember when hunting down this rod found several other sizes with the bushed big ends.
With the cowl mounted motor seemed to overheat the first flight and landed with it pretty hard to turn. Went home and pulled it apart to find the bottom end stuck to the pin. Worked it loose with heat and oil and checked out the surfaces. Could find no signs of damage, but decided to polish it and recheck fit.
Engine went back together and with the ducting design put close to 300 trouble free flights on it. At that point had a repeat and this time the bottom end of the rod was not as pretty. Found one NIB and put it back together. Put another 10-12 flights before selling it in favor of the 100 powered Super Bolt I had been lusting over for a long time, (only regret was not swapping that Saito for a spare OS FS).
Here's where it gets fun. Over the course of the next 12-14 months the new owner did some damage to the plane, including a hard nose over with high throttle, repaired it and flew it a few times before the engine seized again. This time he sent it out and the repair shop told him I had put the rod in backwards. This is not my first engine, nor the first Saito, (nor even the first Saito I had done for him. That engine still going strong) so he was hoping for a refund. If just after purchase I would have been easily swayed that way, but knowing his throttle management, (we call it here "The Metro Catering School of Flight") knowing he stored his craft in an unheated and moist garage, and knowing he flew it many times in that excess of a year span, could not justify it.
Anyway, the point of this is I seem to remember when hunting down this rod found several other sizes with the bushed big ends.
11-09-2014, 07:06 AM
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Finally got around to firing up the 180 today.
https://vimeo.com/111338062
I ran it a bit rich, though a fair bit of the smoke is probably due to the bellyful of oil and WD40 I put in the crankcase - she didn't seem to turn over smoothly, so I flipped the backplate off and noticed that the main bearing was a tad on the rusty side.
I bought the engine pre-loved, and I guess it had been sitting for a while with no after-run oil. So the main bearing is a bit on the gungy side. Looks like I'll need to replace it before I open the taps and/or put it in an aircraft. How hard is it to replace?
BJ
https://vimeo.com/111338062
I ran it a bit rich, though a fair bit of the smoke is probably due to the bellyful of oil and WD40 I put in the crankcase - she didn't seem to turn over smoothly, so I flipped the backplate off and noticed that the main bearing was a tad on the rusty side.
I bought the engine pre-loved, and I guess it had been sitting for a while with no after-run oil. So the main bearing is a bit on the gungy side. Looks like I'll need to replace it before I open the taps and/or put it in an aircraft. How hard is it to replace?
BJ
11-09-2014, 11:39 AM
These are relatively easy to work on. Just have to follow the correct sequence.
First would be the back cover and you already have that off, so next is the cylinder. Since the jug comes off intact all that remains is to slide the piston and rod aft off the back of the crank. and set everything aside. The care is not to dislodge or lose the two plastic buttons that retain the end of the piston pin.
Lastly is the cam cover. Once that is off the crank remains the only part to remove to get at the bearings. The prop drive flange may be a bit ornery, but I use a battery terminal puller set up with trimmed claw ends to fit the groove. If you don't have anything like that and intend to change both bearings anyway, simply knock the threaded end with a block of wood. This should free everything up. Once the flange is off the crank should slide out the back. More than likely the rear bearing will remain in the case. You will have to warm up that area of the outside of the case with a heat gun or other method and then tap the case on the same block of wood. The rear bearing should fall out.
NOTE 1: When removing the prop flange make note of any thrust spacer and/or other bits to ensure they go back together correctly.
Once the rear bearing is out you can go from the back and tap out the front bearing. Now would be a good time to clean the case and crank of any contamination or corrosion.
When installing the new bearings it is absolutely mandatory you do not load them up by trying to force either into the case. The rear should slide onto the crank and the pair drop into the case once the latter has been warmed up sufficiently. On the front bearing, if it is sealed both sides, carefully remove the inner seal so lube has a chance to reach the rolling elements. That bearing should be an easy installation by reversing the crank and fitting the bearing to the end. With the case warmed drop it into place and wait for it to cool. The crank should come out alone.
At this point the key is to align the cam and crank gears. There should be marks visible on the crank gear, but suffice to say it should be oriented so the piston would be at top dead center. If the cam does not have a mark then there should be an alignment hole visible through if I remember correctly, the LH lifter hole. You can now drop the pushrod tubes and pushrods into the can cover seals.
NOTE 2: Ensure all parts are lubed during assembly. I use air tool oil at this stage as it flows freely throughout.
You can now reinstall the rod and piston, just be sure you have them facing the original direction. A sharpie mark on front of the piston before removal helps here. Once in place you can slide the cylinder back onto the piston. Watch to see the ring fully compresses within the groove as it slides into the tapered bottom of the bore.
With the rocker covers removed you have to guide the pushrods and tubes into the seals at the top end. If you don't get the pushrods aligned here not a big panic. It's more important the tubes insert without damage and the cylinder seats properly. Once done you can push down on the valve end of the rocker and place the pushrod in the pocket at the end.
Just bolt everything back together and watch the valves in relation to the piston. You should have one point where they are both fully closed with the piston at TDC. If your timing is correct the final setting is valve clearance. I normally adjust for slightly over .001" on both intake and exhaust.
First would be the back cover and you already have that off, so next is the cylinder. Since the jug comes off intact all that remains is to slide the piston and rod aft off the back of the crank. and set everything aside. The care is not to dislodge or lose the two plastic buttons that retain the end of the piston pin.
Lastly is the cam cover. Once that is off the crank remains the only part to remove to get at the bearings. The prop drive flange may be a bit ornery, but I use a battery terminal puller set up with trimmed claw ends to fit the groove. If you don't have anything like that and intend to change both bearings anyway, simply knock the threaded end with a block of wood. This should free everything up. Once the flange is off the crank should slide out the back. More than likely the rear bearing will remain in the case. You will have to warm up that area of the outside of the case with a heat gun or other method and then tap the case on the same block of wood. The rear bearing should fall out.
NOTE 1: When removing the prop flange make note of any thrust spacer and/or other bits to ensure they go back together correctly.
Once the rear bearing is out you can go from the back and tap out the front bearing. Now would be a good time to clean the case and crank of any contamination or corrosion.
When installing the new bearings it is absolutely mandatory you do not load them up by trying to force either into the case. The rear should slide onto the crank and the pair drop into the case once the latter has been warmed up sufficiently. On the front bearing, if it is sealed both sides, carefully remove the inner seal so lube has a chance to reach the rolling elements. That bearing should be an easy installation by reversing the crank and fitting the bearing to the end. With the case warmed drop it into place and wait for it to cool. The crank should come out alone.
At this point the key is to align the cam and crank gears. There should be marks visible on the crank gear, but suffice to say it should be oriented so the piston would be at top dead center. If the cam does not have a mark then there should be an alignment hole visible through if I remember correctly, the LH lifter hole. You can now drop the pushrod tubes and pushrods into the can cover seals.
NOTE 2: Ensure all parts are lubed during assembly. I use air tool oil at this stage as it flows freely throughout.
You can now reinstall the rod and piston, just be sure you have them facing the original direction. A sharpie mark on front of the piston before removal helps here. Once in place you can slide the cylinder back onto the piston. Watch to see the ring fully compresses within the groove as it slides into the tapered bottom of the bore.
With the rocker covers removed you have to guide the pushrods and tubes into the seals at the top end. If you don't get the pushrods aligned here not a big panic. It's more important the tubes insert without damage and the cylinder seats properly. Once done you can push down on the valve end of the rocker and place the pushrod in the pocket at the end.
Just bolt everything back together and watch the valves in relation to the piston. You should have one point where they are both fully closed with the piston at TDC. If your timing is correct the final setting is valve clearance. I normally adjust for slightly over .001" on both intake and exhaust.
11-09-2014, 01:50 PM
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Before you do any of that, heave that WD40 over the nearest fence that you can't climb over and as far as you can heave it. It's only good for starting fires in your fireplace. I lost the bearings in two Irvine's, a .40 and a .46, thinking WD40 would protect them.
11-09-2014, 02:02 PM
True. From what I remember WD40 and even LPS1 are what's called "Aromatic Solvents" and a very high majority soon evaporates. LPS2 is slightly more tenacious with LPS3 the best of the bunch for waterproofing, leaving a waxy coating. I use it on all my waterborne electronics.
To beat a dead horse, what I found to be the best long term storage and even effective After Run Oil is a 50/50 mix of ATF and air tool oil, (identical to turbine oil).
To beat a dead horse, what I found to be the best long term storage and even effective After Run Oil is a 50/50 mix of ATF and air tool oil, (identical to turbine oil).
11-09-2014, 02:12 PM
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MKike 109, I emphathise with you re your move. I have been in my current house for 8 months now (after accident and moving south from Cairns) and am just now getting to the bottom of the "hanger queen" models. Finishing off some and getting others to fly while all the time finding gear that has been "lost" etc. There are a number of good guys around Canberra that can assist you with the playboy and guide you on the path of true enlightenment re your modelling activities. Look up the contacts for SAM 600 (there are a number of them in the "seat of knowledge" and surrounds. Good choice the 62 for the playboy, 30 to 40% nitro with 20% synthetic oil and you are away. Let me know how you get on. Are you coming to QLD for the Nats next year?
11-09-2014, 05:34 PM
Well I swung the 100 to the horizontal position and took some measurements against the 70. The cowl opening is the same size, the difference being the 100 sticks out much further, so going to give it a shot. At least it will stay cooler since most of the head sticks out. The big trick will be getting the cowl over the engine.
11-10-2014, 07:17 PM
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The new mounts for the Alpha 60 came today, decision time between the old High Compression .80 and the 1.00. The 1.00 fits precisely between the beams, the .80 is a little narrow.
11-10-2014, 11:30 PM
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G'day. Yes, I remember you moving around the time I was packing up. Moving with models is not nice. The blokes who packed and moved us hated the models. The blokes who unpacked (we had to leave them in storage for about a month) hated them even more. Luckily I managed to sell about 10 before I moved but there were still plenty to move. Like you, I am still finding stuff and looking for other stuff. I did not realise how much I use my heat gun until I could not find it. And then my covering iron died.
One of the blokes in my new club sold me the Playboy kit. His name is Grant and he is heavily into SAM 1788. Next weekend our club is hosting an event at a nearby field where is 400foot limit is not so rigid. We are a bit to close to Canberra International Airport. We can get the limit lifted for short periods but hot whole days. In nearby Yass, there is no problem.
I did have a near new Saito 65 but I sold it. Pity as they are good in a Playboy, or so I am told. But luckily I do have a couple of 62s.
As for the NATS; I have never been to one and I probably won't start now. I am mainly in the hobby for the fun of just flying.
Now you will have to change your name. Perhaps take the F off as you are no longer quite so Far North. I am nearly in Canberra but not quite. We are in a nice little village of about 350 people which was founded about 1830 for agricultural workers but is now a dormitory for Canberra and a retirement home for people who have escaped Canberra.
Cheers
Mike in Gundaroo (Oz)
One of the blokes in my new club sold me the Playboy kit. His name is Grant and he is heavily into SAM 1788. Next weekend our club is hosting an event at a nearby field where is 400foot limit is not so rigid. We are a bit to close to Canberra International Airport. We can get the limit lifted for short periods but hot whole days. In nearby Yass, there is no problem.
I did have a near new Saito 65 but I sold it. Pity as they are good in a Playboy, or so I am told. But luckily I do have a couple of 62s.
As for the NATS; I have never been to one and I probably won't start now. I am mainly in the hobby for the fun of just flying.
Now you will have to change your name. Perhaps take the F off as you are no longer quite so Far North. I am nearly in Canberra but not quite. We are in a nice little village of about 350 people which was founded about 1830 for agricultural workers but is now a dormitory for Canberra and a retirement home for people who have escaped Canberra.
Cheers
Mike in Gundaroo (Oz)
11-11-2014, 09:08 AM
I moved 4 years ago and was fortunate to be able to move models and pieces of models myself in the truck. Same for computer gear, a big load of electronics, radios, and a flat screen TV. Everything survived.
I would love to visit and watch the Playboys fly. I've always wanted to see that.
I would love to visit and watch the Playboys fly. I've always wanted to see that.
11-11-2014, 11:46 AM
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SNIP
I am nearly in Canberra but not quite. We are in a nice little village of about 350 people which was founded about 1830 for agricultural workers but is now a dormitory for Canberra and a retirement home for people who have escaped Canberra.
Cheers
Mike in Gundaroo (Oz)
A dormitory? I think that's what we call a bedroom community in the states. Not so?CR
11-11-2014, 01:42 PM
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Mike, I know Grant well, he was up here in June for our comp and I believe he is coming next year. Believe it or not but it has been our experience that for duration the 62 is better than the 65. You aren't worrying about economy (fuel burn) and it is lighter. Light is good and the ideal weight for any duration model in my neck of the woods is 3 to 3.5 pounds (not metricated yet). Grant is into O/T gliders you should check that out as well, and for the Nats thing, just to visit and see the models competing, (Scale, pylon and O/T etc) is a pretty good thing. If Grant doesn't get you to at least "compete" in a local comp before long I would be surprised. Good bunch of guys in and around Canberra.
BLW check out your local SAM chapter if you are referring to Playboy model a/c if not Hugh still flies in a Playboy a/c I believe.
BLW check out your local SAM chapter if you are referring to Playboy model a/c if not Hugh still flies in a Playboy a/c I believe.
11-11-2014, 01:57 PM
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G'day Charley, Yep, down here it gets called a dormitory suburb (or village in our case). Just another wonderful example of the differences in English wherever she is spoke. Australian English is similar to UK English in spelling but we have lots of differences. We love to shorten words and names. Breakfast becomes brekkie (spelling is optional), biscuit becomes bickie, Brick Layer becomes Brickie, sun glasses becomes sunnies and so on more or less forever.
It is a bit like Swiss German though the Germans mostly cannot under stand Swiss German and most English speakers can understand us eventually with a bit of hand waving and.
Cheers
Mike in Gundaroo (Oz)
It is a bit like Swiss German though the Germans mostly cannot under stand Swiss German and most English speakers can understand us eventually with a bit of hand waving and.
Cheers
Mike in Gundaroo (Oz)
11-12-2014, 06:15 AM
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I would like to become a member of this forum. I also have a question that has been previously reviewed in other forums, but mostly for invertyed engines. I am getting ready to build my Goldberg Tiger 60 deluxe (retracts) and I am installing a Saito 91 upright. This has left me with questions about the fuel tank to carb centerline questions. The engine manual states 5mm below carb for the tank centerline, but I think the closest I can get this will by moving the tank upward (toward carb) is 1/2" at best. Will this be a problem and also what is the best location to run the fuel line thru the firewall (high, low or center)?