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  1. #20501

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    On the starter thing.  I usually don't prime my engines as such.  Those with muffler pressure I usually turn once with my finger closing off the exhaust outlet the others I just don't bother.  I open the throttle to what I know is just above idle and turn over with the electric starter.  Haven't had any problems to date (that is when every thing else it up to scratch).
    On starters here in OZ you can get a "big" Thunder Tiger Starter that coupled with a good /well charged gell cell (motor bike) battery turns any Saito I've come across including the big petrol engines.  (Not mine other peoples).  I have yet to try it out on the 50cc beast  but I think a lot of the ability of the starter to turn and engine comes down to the power getting to the starter.  Off course you can't keep turning the engine over and over and still expect it to perform, just like a car or 1:! type a/c 
    Club Saito member 710

  2. #20502

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    You bee`s right on the power to the starter being the secret, I have a 180 starter mounted on a 7 amp gel cell 12 volt with about 4 inches of wire to it and can turn my friends 30 DLE real easy..the secret is in the length of the wire for voltage drop......


    John Saito # 119

  3. #20503

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Regarding the starting, there is also one more item to consider. Rotate the prop backwards until it bumps against the compression. Then put the starter to it. Letting it rotate loosly before the engine comes up on compression is usually enough to get the starter to spin the engine up. If you start with the prop already on compression, it will be difficult with that size engine. I'm also using an old Sullivan starter and a 7AH gel cell.

    Just my $.02

    Bob
    Club Saito #61 Cub Brotherhood #107
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  4. #20504

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: mschulz531


    ORIGINAL: clytle374
    ORIGINAL: earlwb

    I wonder if they changed the plastic formula or something. I have been using one for maybe 20 some odd years and it works Ok for me. This last weekend I used it on a Enya 1.20 I had just fixed back up.
    I think a length of garden hose shoved down onto a length of wood dowl rod would work good too. Maybe glue it on a little to keep it from moving.
    I think the problem is if the engine passes some certain displacment size then trying to use a chicken stick on it becomes a problem, so you might be better off using a welder's leather glove instead.
    Yep they changed the formula, the dowel is now plastic. Been looking around for a better stick and found this http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...0&I=LXC019&P=K funny thing is they state for up to 14'' props. I've got a 15'' prop, but not sure why that matters exactly.

    I realized we have an old Royal starter that feels to have much more power. I also remember they used to sell a belt reductions for starters, I can't find one now. They do have starters with belt reductions, but are real expensive.

    I might try the welding glove, if I could reliably prime it, and not break my fingers. I hate broken fingers.

    Cory
    I found a glove in my garage with just the right amount of padding; I've been using it and it works great.
    If I ever decide to use a stick again, I'll make my own from a section of thick dowel rod and a piece of garden hose.
    -Mike

    Hi
    This is the first time I have posted in this form .

    Have you guys ever heard of the ALign starter , Reducded RPM and 5 times the torq of a regular starter . Runs off a 3 cell lipo , 2200 mah . Beats that 24 volt starter any day . 1 charge lasts ?,........... I,ve gone through 4 gallons of fuel and haven,t recharged as of yet this summer .

    This starter , gets my best buy this summer ( except when I forget it at home )[:@] ( this happened once )

    But ,........ I,m sure you already know all this .

    Michel

  5. #20505
    Moderator w8ye's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Here's what I start my Saito 30 with . . .

    It is a Sullivan Dynatron and a Miller 4:1 reduction with two 12V batteries in series



    If I have trouble with that starter, I carry a spare Sullivan Megatron that I can hook up to my truck battery with jumper cables attached




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    Attended the CutFinger Institute of DirtNap University for years but never did graduate....
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  6. #20506
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I totally agree, the Align starter is amazing. I've used it on as large as the FG30 with no difficulties. Light - 875 grams (1 pound 15 oz) with the 2200 mH 3 cell LiPo and powerful. The endurance (duration) is just as notable.

    I bought it because I was tired of fubling with the Sullivan on my Align 600N and now use it exclusively. Have not had a chance to try it on the FG-57 Twin but expect it to work as long as I start the process on the other side of TDC.

    jimm
    The two most useless things a pilot has; the runway behind you and the altitude above you.
    CORSAIR Brotherhood # 71 / Club Saito Member #704 / Waco Brotherhood#205

  7. #20507

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    The old Royal starter i dug up starts the 100 without any trouble. I guess the super cheap, and old, Tower starter wasn't up to the task.

    I also readjusted the valves since they were quite loose, then set the low speed needle correctly. I got the idle down to around 2200. Not sure if I picked up any rpm on the top end since the tach seems to be failing(also really old) and wouldn't read over 5K in the low light of dusk.

    Cory

  8. #20508
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    One issue with the electric starters, is people may be using batteries that are not up to providing enough current or power to drive the motor on a larger engine. For example using a 7 amp-hour sealed GLA battery may not be able to provide enough current for the motor. It is like trying to start a big Cadillac V8 engine with a little Volkswagon car battery. 
    But my standard Sullivan starter is barely able to drive a 1.20 four stroke engine. I have to get the prop just past TDC and then it usually is just able to get the engine to swing through to start. So I should be using a little larger heavy duty starter motor myself. But I do have a 9 amp-hour motorcycle battery in the flight box. Albeit the flight box is a back breaker to carry around.

    Club Saito #722, Sig Kadet Brotherhood #80, GlowHead Brotherhood #14,
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  9. #20509
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I can't believethe pictures i've just seen above you guys are kidding or way out of my league,i could'nt even lift one of those things.They got a quick release chuck right? so you can pop a masonery drill bit in it on the weekend and bore some holes in the concrete at home for kicks yes? my plain jane rotostart winds the 220 over fine
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  10. #20510

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: Old Fart

    I can't believethe pictures i've just seen above you guys are kidding or way out of my league,i could'nt even lift one of those things.They got a quick release chuck right? so you can pop a masonery drill bit in it on the weekend and bore some holes in the concrete at home for kicks yes? my plain jane rotostart winds the 220 over fine
    These guys use them for weight training on the side.
    Content, but not Complacent.

  11. #20511

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    The funny thing is that if you are trying to start a large glow four-stroke, all you need to do is to prime it properly, flip the prop several times with no glow heat, then, after applying glow heat, fling the prop back against compression and the engine will start, nearly each and every time. No starter needed.


    Ed Cregger
    \"Practice makes prefect\"

    Saito Club Member #52

  12. #20512

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: NM2K

    The funny thing is that if you are trying to start a large glow four-stroke, all you need to do is to prime it properly, flip the prop several times with no glow heat, then, after applying glow heat, fling the prop back against compression and the engine will start, nearly each and every time. No starter needed.


    Ed Cregger
    Yep, on the bench it starts every time. In a cowl where I can't see it to prime it effectively, it seldom starts.

    Cory

  13. #20513
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Prime it holding your finger over the exhaust, as mentioned above, with the throttle fully open. Once is usually enough.

    I have a love of my fingers, so I use a starter. I've used a Sullivan Dynatron with 24 volts to start my Saito 1.80 with no problem (no reduction drive at the time). Of course I replaced the starter leads with underground wire used in home outdoor lighting, which I obtained from a local home improvement store. It really helps to go to larger starter leads to avoid the drop in amperage with smaller wire.

    My Sullivan starter, 24 volts of battery power, with a Miller Persuader starts everything I have, including an O.S. 3.2 four cylinder and ASP 4.00 radial. It has also been used on large gas engines over 80cc's.

    The picture below shows the starter with the original switch bought at a local auto parts store. It didn't hold up. The contacts burned, so I replaced it with another from Performance Plus Connection in North Carolina obtained on the web, that has triple the capacity.

    Bob

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    Bob
    Fleet Brotherhood #1, Club Saito #800

  14. #20514

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I have an old Hobbico starter that I strapped a 12 V sealed lead acid battery with short leads. Can the standard Hobbico or similar starters take 24 Volts?
    Content, but not Complacent.

  15. #20515

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Most of these style starters will take up to at least 20 volts for the very short bursts that we use to start an engine. I regularly run mine on a 4S LiPo battery (makes a very lightweight self-contained unit which delivers 16.8v when fully charged) that spins the starter motor a little faster and readily insures good starting results all the way up to a Saito 2.20 sized engine.

    Now if you run the starter motor repeatedly for anything longer than about 5 seconds a time the failure point in these starter motors are the plastic brush housings. If you heat up the brushes from extended running with no cool down periods the brushes will stick inside the brush housing and then the motor will stop working. A relatively easy thing to fix if you take your starter apart, providing you have 6 hands to try and get the brushes - springs, rotors, caps etc all aligned and in at the same time.

    Bottom line - if you run the starter for the typical starting period of 1-2 seconds the higher voltages work great. If you are having trouble starting your engine then I would look elsewhere in your starting operation for improvement (i.e. better priming procedure, etc.)

    I hope this helps.

    Pete
    Pete Bergstrom
    Saito, Evolution & Zenoah Manager

  16. #20516

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: Pete Bergstrom

    Most of these style starters will take up to at least 20 volts for the very short bursts that we use to start an engine.* I regularly run mine on a 4S LiPo battery (makes a very lightweight self-contained unit which delivers 16.8v when fully charged) that spins the starter motor a little faster and readily insures good starting results all the way up to a Saito 2.20 sized engine.*

    Now if you run the starter motor repeatedly for anything longer than about 5 seconds a time the failure point in these starter motors are the plastic brush housings.* If you heat up the brushes from extended running with no cool down periods the brushes will stick inside the brush housing and then the motor will stop working.* A relatively easy thing to fix if you take your starter apart, providing you have 6 hands to try and get the brushes - springs, rotors, caps etc all aligned and in at the same time.[img][/img]

    Bottom line - if you run the starter for the typical starting period of 1-2 seconds the higher voltages work great.* If you are having trouble starting your engine then I would look elsewhere in your starting operation for improvement (i.e. better priming procedure, etc.)

    I hope this helps.

    Pete
    Thanks Pete, that is helpful.
    Content, but not Complacent.

  17. #20517

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I agree with Old Fart and I am not into weight lifting.  Methinks the use of those devces only masks the fact the engine is not properly set up.  I mainly use a starter because I wish to keep my body intact.  I even have an electric starter for the Cox 049 and starting it is fun considering the Cox spins faster when running than the starter.
    For the record on all my 4 strokes I back the prop off TDC (compression stroke) to allow the starter some "build up" before it gets to compression.  I also pre prime by blocking off the exhaust pipe (in engines running crank case pressure) and turn the prop over a couple of times before attaching the glo and starter.  Also to prevent glo burn out I back off the rheostat on the glo driver after every engine start and adjust accordingly at every start
    Club Saito member 710

  18. #20518

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I have a Saito 125a that set-up for awhile. When I took it out to run it, it didn't seem to run at the RPMs I thought it should. So being the good little boy I am I took it apart and cleaned it up good and put it back together. Now the engine will only turn about 8600 rpm with a 16/6 APC using 30% fuel. I have
    another 125a that will turn about 9400 rpm with a 16/6 APC using 30% fuel. Did I miss the timing ? How do you know on a Saito anyway. To me it looks like you plug and pray.
    Old Myths Die Hard

  19. #20519
    Moderator w8ye's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    To check cam timing . . .

    Remove both valve covers

    Find top dead center of the piston on the compression stroke by feeling for the dead point

    Turn crankshaft 360 degrees or one full turn

    If the cam is correct, both rocker arms will be even with each other, one is almost closed and the other is almost open. This point will be about 5 degrees before top dead center.

    With the carb open, you can also blow through the muffler and air will come out the carb at this point.
    Attended the CutFinger Institute of DirtNap University for years but never did graduate....
    Recipient, Mangledhand award August 2008
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    Original AMA #31261

  20. #20520
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I was thinking that if the cam timing is looking good, then maybe the valve adjustments are off. Too large of a gap can cause a power loss too.
    wow! 30% nitromethane in the fuel, sheesh, I find 5% suits my engines just fine. I used to use 25% and 30% or more for pylon racing years ago, not sport flying.
    it has me wondering if you have some detonation going on or not.
    Club Saito #722, Sig Kadet Brotherhood #80, GlowHead Brotherhood #14,
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  21. #20521

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    If you did bearing replacement (or even took them out of the engine and re used) check the crankshaft alignment.  If it is not properly aligned you will get a drop in RPM
    Club Saito member 710

  22. #20522

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Ealwb no detonation just a fast engine.  That fuel mix is used for duration (vertical drag racing) events.  Check out the SAM site for more data on this and also The Vintagents and SAM 84 sites.  Tells you a bit about my compatriots and the things we get up to.
    BTB standard Duration fuel for an OS 61 is 60% nitro and the YS 53 and 63 is 40% plus depending on the prop.  Not recommended for the faint hearted
    Club Saito member 710

  23. #20523

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: FNQFLYER

    Ealwb no detonation just a fast engine.* That fuel mix is used for duration (vertical drag racing) events.* Check out the SAM site for more data on this and also The Vintagents and SAM 84 sites.* Tells you a bit about my compatriots and the things we get up to.
    BTB standard Duration fuel for an OS 61 is 60% nitro and the YS 53 and 63 is 40% plus depending on the prop.* Not recommended for the faint hearted
    Obviously, nitro is cheaper in Australia.
    Content, but not Complacent.

  24. #20524
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: FNQFLYER

    Ealwb no detonation just a fast engine. That fuel mix is used for duration (vertical drag racing) events. Check out the SAM site for more data on this and also The Vintagents and SAM 84 sites. Tells you a bit about my compatriots and the things we get up to.
    BTB standard Duration fuel for an OS 61 is 60% nitro and the YS 53 and 63 is 40% plus depending on the prop. Not recommended for the faint hearted
    Oh, OK, so you guys were doing something similar to pylon racing then.

    I have seen some folks using 30% for sport flying, so it had me a wondering.
    Thanks

    I got to thinking about it, and if you took the engine apart, you likely disturbed the piston ring and it now doesn't match the cylinder bore. So you probanly need to wait until the ring gets seated into its new position in the cylinder.


    Club Saito #722, Sig Kadet Brotherhood #80, GlowHead Brotherhood #14,
    AMA # 928076

  25. #20525
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    A saito 30 on 55% sounds like a full size harvard prop tips on fly bye mate
    Watch out for the ground eh?


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