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  1. #21601
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: triumphman49

    It's nice for that ignition to give so many options . . . and benifits. Got a FA270T converted with a RcXel, yet to run, and hoping for a 20:1 gas mix (if can find good stock carb settings). Can always revert to glow,or even straight methanol.

    T-man49
    #723

    If you can get E-85 it should run @ nearly the same carb settings as your glow fuel. There is suposed to be a station in Madison, AL.

    Alcohol based fuels will have similar fuel volume requirements while gasoline will have about 33% lower delivery volume.

    E-85 is cheaper than gasoline & has higher octane allowing more spark advance & it will not require lower compression like you might encounter W/gasoline.

    You will loose about 15% HP running gas. Staying W/glow fuel on spark will likely increase HP. E-85 would likely produce similar HP as low nitro content glow fuel.

    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41
    - 1/3 Spacewalker, Rascal 110
    CUB BH #231 - Wings Maker 1/5 J-3 Cub

  2. #21602
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: hsukaria

    So you are using glow fuel with spark ignition?

    Yes, see my post above.

    W/my FA 150 I was able to do fuel consumpsion tests.

    I forget the tank volume, but @ WOT on glow ignition my FA 150 would drain the tank in 12 minutes.

    On the C&H spark ignition it would take 30 minutes to drain the same tank.

    That's a 60% reduction in fuel consumption & the engine ran cooler to boot.

    A timed ignition event is a wonderful thing.

    The cost of converting a single cylinder to spark is about 1/2 the cost now compared to '97 when I did mine.

    You can still run glow fuel W/spark ignition. It is then feasable to substitute E-85/oil mix for the glow fuel W/O changing carburaters.

    Spark ignition, W/glow fuel has a much higher HP potential than gasoline. E-85 will also have higher HP potential than gasoline. It allows more spark advance & higher compression ratios than gasoline.

    A typical gas "conversion" looses about 15% HP over glow. (example, Saito FA 220 (glow) rated @ 3.5 HP, the FG 36 (gas version of the same engine) is rated @ 3.0 HP) Spark ignition W/glow fuel makes more usable HP in the midrange than either.

    As stated before, I used 60% LESS 15% Cool Power glow fuel in my Saito FA 150 on spark ignition compared to glow ignition.

    When I did this back in 1997 the conversion was over $200. You can do it now for about $100.

    Here's what you will need for a single cylinder 4 stroke.

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/130

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/140

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/283

    To set the static timing you will also need this.

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/341

    But, you can make up a pointer, piston stop & degree wheel & use a set-up like I have.




    That's the piston stop lower right, 14X32 tpi NGK spark plugs upper left. (along W/a Saito 150 con rod for reference)

    The "timing checker" looks to be an audio alert, but the spark plug grounded against the case will work just as well. The store bought timing checker has a degree wheel, but I think you would need to make a piston stop to find TDC & also a pointer.

    The piston stop can be made W/a burned out glow plug taped for an allen bolt W/jam nut. The pointer can be made W/a piece of brass tube flattened on both ends that bolts to the Saito rocker boxes W/an "L" shaped piece of pushrod soldered to it.


    To covert a twin costs just a little more.

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/243

    And, of course you will need an additional spark plug too.

    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41
    - 1/3 Spacewalker, Rascal 110
    CUB BH #231 - Wings Maker 1/5 J-3 Cub

  3. #21603

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

    ORIGINAL: hsukaria

    So you are using glow fuel with spark ignition?

    Yes, see my post above.

    W/my FA 150 I was able to do fuel consumpsion tests.

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/243

    And, of course you will need an additional spark plug too.

    Thank you, thak you ver' much. That is just what my 180 needs to have done to it. Will it work also on my old 120 abc? Thanks. Sincerely, Richard

  4. #21604
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: spaceworm

    ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

    ORIGINAL: hsukaria

    So you are using glow fuel with spark ignition?

    Yes, see my post above.

    W/my FA 150 I was able to do fuel consumpsion tests.

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/243

    And, of course you will need an additional spark plug too.

    Thank you, thak you ver' much. That is just what my 180 needs to have done to it. Will it work also on my old 120 abc? Thanks. Sincerely, Richard
    Yes it will work on any single cylinder Saito. On smaller engines there will be "diminishing returns" as the weight of the EI components will aproach or exceed the weight savings of the reduced fuel load required.

    A 120 or even maybe a .91 would be "weight cost" effective. Anything smaller would be questionable.

    BTW, the link in your quote above is for an even firing twin.

    Here's what you will need for a single cylinder 4 stroke.

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/130

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/140

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/283

    To set the static timing you will also need this.

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/341

    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41
    - 1/3 Spacewalker, Rascal 110
    CUB BH #231 - Wings Maker 1/5 J-3 Cub

  5. #21605

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    SrTele150,

    Thanx for the tip on E85. As an alcohol based fuel it would probably help with cooling also. My 270T is also slated for a Sig Spacewalker . . . a ways down the road thou.

    T-man49
    #723

  6. #21606
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: triumphman49

    SrTele150,

    Thanx for the tip on E85. As an alcohol based fuel it would probably help with cooling also. My 270T is also slated for a Sig Spacewalker . . . a ways down the road thou.

    T-man49
    #723
    My Saito 300 TTDP is slated for my 1/3 scale SIG Spacewalker too.

    I reversed the carb mounts L/R to angle them outward slightly so they will be more exposed out side of the cowl.

    Here is the current state of mine.

    That's it (framed up) hiding behind the H9 1/4 scale Cap 232 that has an FA180 mounted but never fired.

    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41
    - 1/3 Spacewalker, Rascal 110
    CUB BH #231 - Wings Maker 1/5 J-3 Cub

  7. #21607

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Hi, we don't yet hace E85, only 10% ethanol mix gasoline. How do I "make" E85 from E10? Thanks.

  8. #21608

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Hey Sr (lol),

    That's an interesting corner you have there. Somehow looks familiar ! ! !

    Got a framed Smith Mini in my lap rite now deciding on servo positioning & such. A Saito 60T sits up front & am trying to "spread" the weight around.

    Your Spacewalker looks to be in great shape. Thought a little of those big heads sticking out of that cowl & realized how impressive they look . . . and SOUND ! ! !

    T-man49

  9. #21609
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: spaceworm

    Hi, we don't yet hace E85, only 10% ethanol mix gasoline. How do I ''make'' E85 from E10? Thanks.
    Well you can certainly make E-10 from E-85 but not vica versa.

    There's suposed to be 1 E-85 station in Fredricksburg & a BUNCH up around the DC area. Check here. http://e85vehicles.com/e85-stations.html

    After a trial run, it would be cost effective to drive a ways if you get 5 or 10 gallons @ a time. You can buy 7 or 8 gallons of E-85 for the price of 1 gallon of glow fuel.

    Mix it 20:1 & you can have a gallon of E-85/oil mix for $8 or less.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41
    - 1/3 Spacewalker, Rascal 110
    CUB BH #231 - Wings Maker 1/5 J-3 Cub

  10. #21610
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Here are some Saitos running E-85 W/EI.

    This 1st one is an FG version, but W/E-85, the Walbro carb is not needed as you will see from other clips. In fact, I would think the glow fuel carbs would handle ethanol better than the Walbro.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-AqZyrmdDY&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts1VdsSScFk&feature=related[/youtube]


    These are still running on glow fuel I think, but you can see the increased reliability @ low idle speeds W/EI.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IwW4y_vF2g&feature=related[/youtube]

    In this last clip, the guy never leaned it down enough for proper running. On spark the fuel mixture has to be leaned WAY down for proper power & transition. Even when leaned down for power, they still run cool, cooler than when on glow ignition.

    I kept expecting to see him get those baggy sweater sleeves caught in the prop!

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UVgLV8FOoM&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

    Here's a Saito single carb 300 twin W/the same C&H ignition that I have on my dual carb 300 TTDP. I think this is still running glow fuel too.
    (kinda boring after 7:00)

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9_saL9qVTo[/youtube]







    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41
    - 1/3 Spacewalker, Rascal 110
    CUB BH #231 - Wings Maker 1/5 J-3 Cub

  11. #21611
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: triumphman49

    Hey Sr (lol),



    Your Spacewalker looks to be in great shape. Thought a little of those big heads sticking out of that cowl & realized how impressive they look . . . and SOUND ! ! !

    T-man49

    The velocity stacks will actually extend back just beyond the firewall (about 1/2 the length of the stack) so I intend to put a balsa block on the insde & scallop/tunnel the fuselage some for clearance/relief. Not only the heads will show through the sides of the cowl, but the carbs /"V" stacks as well.

    I think it will look RAD!
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41
    - 1/3 Spacewalker, Rascal 110
    CUB BH #231 - Wings Maker 1/5 J-3 Cub

  12. #21612

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150


    ORIGINAL: spaceworm

    ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

    ORIGINAL: hsukaria

    So you are using glow fuel with spark ignition?

    Yes, see my post above.

    W/my FA 150 I was able to do fuel consumpsion tests.

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/243

    And, of course you will need an additional spark plug too.

    Thank you, thak you ver' much. That is just what my 180 needs to have done to it. Will it work also on my old 120 abc? Thanks. Sincerely, Richard
    Yes it will work on any single cylinder Saito. On smaller engines there will be ''diminishing returns'' as the weight of the EI components will aproach or exceed the weight savings of the reduced fuel load required.

    A 120 or even maybe a .91 would be ''weight cost'' effective. Anything smaller would be questionable.

    BTW, the link in your quote above is for an even firing twin.

    Here's what you will need for a single cylinder 4 stroke.

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/130

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/140

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/283

    To set the static timing you will also need this.

    http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/...od/product/341

    Thanks SeniorTelemaster150 for all this info. I have a Saito 180 on a Giant Stick that would be a great candidate for this conversion not only because on fuel savings, but it already needs 1.5 lbs of nose weight to balance that could be done with this ignition system. I also would benefit from the learning experience.

    One question though, the links provide for all the components, but how would I mount the magnet to the engine? Use a hose clamp or similar?
    Content, but not Complacent.

  13. #21613
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: hsukaria


    Thanks SeniorTelemaster150 for all this info. I have a Saito 180 on a Giant Stick that would be a great candidate for this conversion not only because on fuel savings, but it already needs 1.5 lbs of nose weight to balance that could be done with this ignition system. I also would benefit from the learning experience.

    One question though, the links provide for all the components, but how would I mount the magnet to the engine? Use a hose clamp or similar?

    Well you got me there as I am only familiar W/the older C&M version but it is the same type of system & even uses the same Hall sensors albeit the Rcexl does use different mounting.

    I am sure Rcexl will have the info you need.

    C&M used a plastic ring that affixed to the prop thrust washer via set screw. That contained the trigger magnet. The Hall sensor mounted to the front cam housing screw on a small piece of aluminum angle.

    It looks to me like Rcexl uses a cable tie to attach the Hall sensor to the case & then the prop thrust washer is drilled to hold the trigger magnet. In C&M's version the trigger ring is moved to adjust timing. In Rcexel's version the hall sensor location is adjusted to allow ignition timing changes.

    I'll see if I can get (close up) PIX of the set-up on my FA150.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41
    - 1/3 Spacewalker, Rascal 110
    CUB BH #231 - Wings Maker 1/5 J-3 Cub

  14. #21614

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Hsukaria.

    Many have a "nosering" fabed for the magnet that afixes with set screws to allow timing adjustment. I used JB Weld.

    adrianc4u@msn.com is the new CHignition guy - loves 4 strokes - and probably has a package he could offer as he's done numerous large Saitos

    He does excelent work, just recently working magic on a Honda GX31 for me

    T-man49
    #723

  15. #21615

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Hi
    I have a Saito 56 , it is installed in a TopFlite Elder 40 . The breathing tube that is installed on the bottom , just below the cam shaft . If the engine is inverted , do I simply run a tube down to expell the accumalation of oil . And , how long should this tube be to be efincient .

    Thank for looking
    Michel
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  16. #21616
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    no longer than necessary to get the oil away from the plane
    Attended the CutFinger Institute of DirtNap University for years but never did graduate....
    Recipient, Mangledhand award August 2008
    Club Saito Member #7
    Original AMA #31261

  17. #21617
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

    ORIGINAL: hsukaria


    Thanks SeniorTelemaster150 for all this info. I have a Saito 180 on a Giant Stick that would be a great candidate for this conversion not only because on fuel savings, but it already needs 1.5 lbs of nose weight to balance that could be done with this ignition system. I also would benefit from the learning experience.

    One question though, the links provide for all the components, but how would I mount the magnet to the engine? Use a hose clamp or similar?

    I'll see if I can get (close up) PIX of the set-up on my FA150.

    Here is my old C&H set up on my FA150.

    This shows the hole in the delrin ring that is threaded for the set screw that locks the trigger ring onto the thrust hub. This is how the timing is adjusted. It is infinately adjustable.



    In this shot you can see the relationship of the trigger magnet & the hall sensor.



    Here's a view from the front.




    In the factory Saito FG system the trigger magnet is located in the thrust hub.



    This set-up does not allow adjutment of the trigger magnet position once the prop is torqued down locking the tapered collet/thrust hub in place. One would have to get the timing "in the ball park" W/the thrust hub & then make the fine adjustments via the (limited) adjustable hall sensor housing.



    IMO, the C&H system is better albeit not as clean as the Saito system from a marketing/cosmetic standpoint. The C&H system has the Hall sensor fixed in position while the trigger ring is infinately adjustable. Much quicker/easier to set up to me.

    Here is a replacement hall sensor for the RCXEL ignition. The exact same component used in the C&H system.



    The RCXEL system uses a magnet housed in the thrust hub just like the Saito factory FG set-up. One would then have to make arrangements to attach the hall sensor W/some provision for adjustment.

    If it where me, I would have someone fab an ajustable trigger ring like the C&H unit & mount the hall sensor on the cam housing W/some aluminum angle that has the hall sensor glued to it.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41
    - 1/3 Spacewalker, Rascal 110
    CUB BH #231 - Wings Maker 1/5 J-3 Cub

  18. #21618

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Love my saitos!   Got a 56 in a cub, a 100 in a spitfire, another 100 in an edge 540 and a 180 in a 1/4 extra 300xs...look fwd to more information on these little gems

  19. #21619

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Love my saitos! Got a 56 in a cub, a 100 in a spitfire, another 100 in an edge 540 and a 180 in a 1/4 extra 300xs...look fwd to more information on these little gems

  20. #21620

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    One comment and one question.
    Here in OZ we get different instructions to you guys in the USA re handling and operating our Saitos.  I have referenced the Horizon Hobby site when sourcing data for my gas engines but have still used the supplied data for running my engines.  To date I have had no problem and if the engine reviewer in Airborne (he also contributes to a number of UK mags) is correct we in OZ are travelling ok.  The only problem I have heard of is with the early FG20's and their carbies which was fixed quickly by exchanging them for an upgraded version.
    In the current Airborne there is a review of the FG17 which has the Rexcell ignition unit on it, appears to be ok and I should be adding one to my collection once I have my cataract surgery (if there is any money left.
    The question.  I wish to extract more fuel efficiency out of my 65.  I propose weakening the inlet springs (using the piston suction to dra fuel into the cylinder) putting an OS 10 (1A) caby on a ram tube instead of the current one and then playing with oil levels.  An additional thought is to use ceramic bearing or needle roller bearings.
    I would like some thoughts on the mods please
    Thanks  
    Club Saito member 710

  21. #21621
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    The problem with a spring only valve is that the valve does not close right away if the spring is weak enough to let it breath deeply. If stiffer, the valve closes too soon and eliminates the overlap part of the intake stroke. Also, without a dampening mechanism the valve bounces several times before flully closing. This is real bad.
    Minneapolis Moline G 1350, 585 cubic inches, 141.4 hp, 9.7 GPH fuel use, 4.75 inch bore, 5.50 inch stroke
    CR==15.3 to 1
    Max pull== 14,178
    Front tires==11x15
    Rear tires 24.5x32
    Weight==12,550





    Club Saito member #5

  22. #21622
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    The problem with a spring only valve is that it does not allow engine to breath deeply unless the spring is very weak. Also, if the valve spring is too strong it will close too soon eliminating the overlap part of the intake stroke. The third baddy is that without a dampening mechanism the valve will bounce or chatter when it closes and this real bad.
    Minneapolis Moline G 1350, 585 cubic inches, 141.4 hp, 9.7 GPH fuel use, 4.75 inch bore, 5.50 inch stroke
    CR==15.3 to 1
    Max pull== 14,178
    Front tires==11x15
    Rear tires 24.5x32
    Weight==12,550





    Club Saito member #5

  23. #21623
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Interesting questions fnq and dave's answers sound spot on,they make sense anybody else want to elaborate on the subject?

    FNQ the magazine article writer you mention quotes prop figures for that fg17 engine which is the 100 glow engine??.I can't get the rpm he quotes for a 15x8 on petrol out of my saito 115 nitro,any ideas?
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  24. #21624

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I have the 91 Satio with the short adapter from Tru Turn, The inset into the prop is 1/2 ' and 3/8' deep. This is on a prop 3/4' thick. (50%).
    If you use a drill bit the shaffer beyond the bore is a little more than 3/8? It is difficult to get a true 1/2 in hole with a drill bit? I use a high speed counter sink? This works well but you still go beyond the 3/8 with the bottom depth. You need somethng like a Fostner bit that will take you the 3/8 and be flat on the bottom?
    I have made numerous request to tru-turn with no reply? They once said to use a pilot drill with a 7mm shaft and 1/2 inch Dia. at the bore. You can get one of these custom made for $123.00? I don't think this is for me? Not for just a few props? You don't have to do all this with Dave Brown?
    Any ideas ?

  25. #21625
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: mjraines1

    I have the 91 Satio with the short adapter from Tru Turn, The inset into the prop is 1/2 ' and 3/8' deep. This is on a prop 3/4' thick. (50%).
    If you use a drill bit the shaffer beyond the bore is a little more than 3/8? It is difficult to get a true 1/2 in hole with a drill bit? I use a high speed counter sink? This works well but you still go beyond the 3/8 with the bottom depth. You need somethng like a Fostner bit that will take you the 3/8 and be flat on the bottom?
    I have made numerous request to tru-turn with no reply? They once said to use a pilot drill with a 7mm shaft and 1/2 inch Dia. at the bore. You can get one of these custom made for $123.00? I don't think this is for me? Not for just a few props? You don't have to do all this with Dave Brown?
    Any ideas ?
    You can simply have somene in a machine shop grind a 1/2' bit to the smaller diameter so that there is a shoulder that is 1/2" in diameter W/the flutes sharpened square to the shank. I had one such "counterbore bit" made to make a counterbored hole in trigger guards for Mauser bolt action rifles.

    Simply set the depth of the counterbore in a drill press.
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