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  1. #23201
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I think he means you dave
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  2. #23202
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Is it a new engine? We got some valve problems? Bad fuel? Something is amiss, for sure.
    Saito Club Member #578
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  3. #23203
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: mike early

    Is it a new engine? We got some valve problems? Bad fuel? Something is amiss, for sure.

    Definately something amiss as the prop/RPM idicates that he is only producing about 1HP.

    A 14 X 8 should be turning about 9000 RPM @ 1.5 HP output.

    A Saito FA100 should easily make 1.5 HP.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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  4. #23204

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I will go back and adjust the valves to see if that will help. The fuel I use is 15% Omega, and my other saito four strokes run great off of that fuel.
    airborne crazy

  5. #23205
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: airborne14830

    I will go back and adjust the valves to see if that will help. The fuel I use is 15% Omega, and my other saito four strokes run great off of that fuel.

    Is this a new engine? It kinda make me wonder if your cam timing is 1 tooth advanced.

    If you pull the glow plug to observe the piston & the rocker covers to observe the rocker arms, you can see if you have equal (overlap) valve lift @ TDC on the EX/IN TDC.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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  6. #23206

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Another possible problem could be if one of the pushrods has slipped out of its cup in the rocker arm. That happened to a friend of mine after he had a bit of a rough landing and caught the prop in the ground.

    Bob
    Club Saito #61 Cub Brotherhood #107
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  7. #23207
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I'm sure he means me too, but we're all just guessing, if I had the engine in my hands for a few minutes I could most likely solve it. I agree with the 9,000 rpm if the APC is not a wide blade.
    Case 570 Diesel, 188.4 Cu. In. HP==36 @ 1,900 RPM, CR 17.5 to 1. Bore==3.8125, Stroke==4.125

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  8. #23208
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I'll bet you could.Maybe we could ask airborne to post some pics/be a bit more detailed as to what prop and fuel etc..even the handbrakes confused and i always get into trouble when she gets a bit cranky with someone
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  9. #23209
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

    I agree with the 9,000 rpm if the APC is not a wide blade.

    Standard prop @ 9000 RPM = 1.522 HP

    APC @ 9000 RPM = 1.613

    APC W @ 9000 RPM = 1.659

    According to this STATIC THRUST CALCULATOR

    My FA91S turned a Graupner 13 3/4 X 8 @ 9300 RPM. That calculated to 1.56 HP so it's pretty close, @ least for comparison purposes..

    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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  10. #23210
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: Old Fart

    I'll bet you could.Maybe we could ask airborne to post some pics/be a bit more detailed as to what prop and fuel etc..even the handbrakes confused and i always get into trouble when she gets a bit cranky with someone

    14 X 8 W/15% Omega.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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  11. #23211
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Tiger 2 with Saito 125.

    extra 1/4 ply firewall and fuse doublers of 1/8 ply- lots of epoxy.

    hope it holds together.
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    AMA 414878 - Cub brotherhood - Tiger Club #1
    Club Saito #789 - 50,91,125,125,150S,180

  12. #23212
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Now THAT looks like a lot of fun.Do you really need the wheels or are you just going to hand launch?
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  13. #23213
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Thanks OF. Wheels, we don nee no stinkin' wheels

    the landing gear is rather thin for it size, It has a wicked lope at idle and the whole thing rocks and flexes.

    hopefully a vid tomorrow.
    AMA 414878 - Cub brotherhood - Tiger Club #1
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  14. #23214
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Grabbed my second 100 today. It came dragging a Super Skybolt along behind it and has the same 13/8 MA 3-blade I run on my smaller 91 powered 'Bolt. Should be a real honker.

    I'll have some pics up once it's assembled.
    Club Saito Member # 787
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  15. #23215

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Speaking of HS RPM ....I have two FA-80's and both top out at 8100 to 8400 RPMswinging a ProZinger 14x6 on PowerMaster 20/20 and Cool Power 30/23 Heli fuel.
    According to an old review Iread, this engine with this prop should turn 9400 RPM. If that's correct, I'm making the same mistake on both engines but, can't figure out what it is. Ihave a steady idle on both engines around 2100rpm and they are both running a bit rich as the idle speed "pinch test" shows a rise in rpm.

    Anyone have an idea of what the max rpm should be for this set-up? Is the article correct?

    I remember getting around 9200 on my first FA-80 with Turboheader (the other one is a GK version w/stock muff). I noticed the rpm drop last Sat. when Istarted it up. The weather was overcast and humid, temp was in the low 80's. Can't figure out why rpm would drop 800 after a week of sitting in the garage. My carb adjustments resulted in the same settings and, needless to say, performance was off.

    HELP

    Thanks,
    RJ
    Rowdyjoe
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  16. #23216
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe

    Speaking of HS RPM ....I have two FA-80's and both top out at 8100 to 8400 RPMÂ*swinging a ProZinger 14x6 on PowerMaster 20/20 and Cool Power 30/23 Heli fuel.Â*
    According to an old review IÂ*read, this engine with this prop should turn 9400 RPM.Â* If that's correct, I'm making the same mistake on both engines but, can't figure out what it is.Â* IÂ*have a steady idle on both engines around 2100rpm and they are both running a bit rich as the idle speed ''pinch test'' shows a rise in rpm.
    Â*
    Anyone have an idea of what the max rpm should be for this set-up?Â* Is the article correct?Â*

    I remember getting around 9200 on my first FA-80 with Turboheader (the other one is a GK version w/stock muff).Â* I noticed the rpm drop last Sat. when IÂ*started it up.Â* The weather was overcast and humid, temp was in the low 80's.Â* Can't figure out why rpm would drop 800 after a week of sitting in the garage.Â* My carb adjustments resulted in the same settings and, needless to say, performance was off.

    HELP

    Thanks,
    RJ

    DA (density altitude) can significantly reduce power. High temperature, high humidity & low barametric pressuer can result in a high density altitude yeilding a less dense air charge. Less air = less HP.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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  17. #23217
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    RJ, I have always run a 13x6 Scimitar or a Bolly 13.5x6, the Scimitar would turn 9,700 on my old high compression .80. I used 14x6s on the Saito .91 when I had one briefly and 14x7 Graupner or a 15x6 Pro Zinger on the 1.00. I like to prop Saitos for mid nines except for the little .30 and .40. The .80 just can't manage mid nines with a 14x6 but I also only run 10 and 15% fuel. More later.
    Case 570 Diesel, 188.4 Cu. In. HP==36 @ 1,900 RPM, CR 17.5 to 1. Bore==3.8125, Stroke==4.125

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  18. #23218
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Hi rowdy i always run 10% in the glo saitos and think your prop speeds arn't far off what you should get out of an 80.My 82's on a 14x6 run mid eights to nine depending on how hot it gets over summer.39C is about 100F and hottest iv'e flown an 82 was a 44C day,at a guess i lost about 25% in performance terms.If i notice the engine just don't go the way it used to after a long period of no fiddling i pull the tank,do the valves and also change all the engine o rings,good as gold then
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  19. #23219
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

    RJ, I have always run a 13x6 Scimitar or a Bolly 13.5x6, the Scimitar would turn 9,700 on my old high compression .80. I used 14x6s on the Saito .91 when I had one briefly and 14x7 Graupner or a 15x6 Pro Zinger on the 1.00. I like to prop Saitos for mid nines except for the little .30 and .40. The .80 just can't manage mid nines with a 14x6 but I also only run 10 and 15% fuel. More later.

    Unless I misread his post, his quandry was the loss of RPM from 1 session to the next.


    ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe


    I remember getting around 9200 on my first FA-80 with Turboheader (the other one is a GK version w/stock muff). I noticed the rpm drop last Sat. when I started it up. The weather was overcast and humid, temp was in the low 80's. Can't figure out why rpm would drop 800 after a week of sitting in the garage. My carb adjustments resulted in the same settings and, needless to say, performance was off.

    HELP

    Thanks,
    RJ

    Agreed he is overpropped, but the 800 RPM loss W/the same prop could be due to a low DA (dense intake charge) when he ran the higher RPM & a high DA (less dense intake charge) when he ran less RPM.

    At the drag strip is is not uncommon for ET to vary as much as whole second when comparing times from an East coast, sea level track in november to a midwestern track in the summer.

    That's about a 100HP drop or 20% to 25% HP.

    Yes, the less dense air will allow the prop to spin easier as it takes a less dense "bite" of air, but that still doesn't equate to = RPM output as the power output can drop drastically.

    In aircraft, a high DA is a double edge sword. Not only does it reduce power output form the engine, it also reduces lift.

    I've seen a 200 RPM drop in RPM on my FA300TTDP W/a 15* rise in temperature W/higher humidity.

    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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  20. #23220
    Moderator blw's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    You should see what temp and DA does to turbine helicopters!!!!
    The ultimate responsibility of pilots is to fulfill the dreams of the countless millions who can only stare skyward...and wish.

    "It's a new day for Auburn" - Gus Malzahn

  21. #23221
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: blw

    You should see what temp and DA does to turbine helicopters!!!!

    Well helicopters don't really "fly" anyway.

    They vibrate so badly that the ground rejects them.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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  22. #23222
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe


    I remember getting around 9200 on my first FA-80 with Turboheader (the other one is a GK version w/stock muff). I noticed the rpm drop last Sat. when I started it up. The weather was overcast and humid, temp was in the low 80's. Can't figure out why rpm would drop 800 after a week of sitting in the garage. My carb adjustments resulted in the same settings and, needless to say, performance was off.

    HELP

    Thanks,
    RJ

    Something else to consider: Since the prop is BIG for this engine & it is not operating @ maximum power under the best of conditions, the DA factor could reduce TQ substantially resulting in a bigger RPM drop than what might be expected if the engine were running @ peak HP under the best conditions.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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  23. #23223

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Thanks guys. I figured those wx conditions would have an adverse affect on performance, just didn't expect it to be that much. Since the humidty was up and temp was down I thought it might all equal out. When Iwas getting 9200 with the 80s it was hot (near 100F) but, much lower humidity.
    Then again, it might be my cheap tach not readying accurately. Even if it's not accurate it's still helpful in showing an increase or decrease in rpm. I've decided to buy a better tach. On the other hand, there was a noticable decrease in performance in flight.
    Speaking of props. I've been wanting to try a 13x6 to test the difference in performance against the 14x6. Wouldn't you know that Ijust ordered more 14x6 props (duh). I'll have to make a trip to the LHSand pick up a couple of 13x6 props.

    I'll be tuning on the 80GK again today because Iknow it's not right. It seems that as Iapproach best LS idle the transition sucks and it will die. Can't seem to peak the top end properly due that problem. It seems to run fine with the low end tuned rich but, it's not at optimum idle. Ithink I'll change plugs to see if it helps.

    RJ
    Rowdyjoe
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  24. #23224

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Was just tuning the 80GK with a 13x6 prop and it makes a BIGdifference in rpm. It peaked 10,100 on the last run but, the idle is only 2200 to 2300 rpm. It's also surging at peak rpm and haven't figured that one out yet but, on the last run it seemed to be steady. I've been filling the tank about 1/2 full and it's down to about 1/8 tank now. Seems strange to me how it peaks higher when the tank is almost empty. I'm stil not happy. Maybe a carb overhaul will help. Don't know how much time is on the engine but, it appears to be low. Paint is still in excellent condition, it's very clean, and compression is high. Of course, Idon't know how long it's gone unused either.
    I'm going to change the plug as soon as it cools down and see if that will help. It can't hurt. I pulled and tested the plug that came with it and it glowed good and hot right away so Ifigured it was good to go. However, it has died a couple of times when I pull the igniter off.

    The HSneedle is approx. 5 turns out and the LSis just about even with the end of the throttle barrel. The transition bogs down a about mid throttle but, picks up again if Iopen up at moderate to slow speed. If Iopen it fast it dies or tries to die just above idle.

    Haven't had a chance to start the 80s with the TH. That's the one that had the large rpm drop. If I can get the GK tuned I'll tackle the other one tomorrow.
    I need to go to another LHS that's better equipped and buy 2 good 13x6 Xoar props. I don't like blunt ended props.

    Garry
    Rowdyjoe
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  25. #23225
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe

    Was just tuning the 80GK with a 13x6 prop and it makes a BIGÂ*difference in rpm.Â* It peaked 10,100 on the last run but, the idle is only 2200 to 2300 rpm.Â* It's also surging at peak rpm and haven't figured that one out yet but, on the last run it seemed to be steady.Â* I've been filling the tank about 1/2 full and it's down to about 1/8 tank now.Â* Seems strange to me how it peaks higher when the tank is almost empty.Â* I'm stil not happy.Â* Maybe a carb overhaul will help.Â* Don't know how much time is on the engine but, it appears to be low.Â* Paint is still in excellent condition, it's very clean, and compression is high.Â* Of course, IÂ*don't know how long it's gone unused either. Â*
    I'm going to change the plug as soon as it cools down and see if that will help.Â* It can't hurt.Â* I pulled and tested the plug that came with it and it glowed good and hot right away so IÂ*figured it was good to go.Â* However, it has died a couple of times when I pull the igniter off.

    The HSÂ*needle is approx. 5 turns out and the LSÂ*is just about even with the end of the throttle barrel.Â* The transition bogs down a about mid throttle but, picks up again if IÂ*open up at moderate to slow speed.Â* If IÂ*open it fast it dies or tries to die just above idle.

    Haven't had a chance to start the 80s with the TH.Â* That's the one that had the large rpm drop.Â* If I can get the GK tuned I'll tackle the other one tomorrow.
    I need to go to another LHS that's better equipped and buy 2 good 13x6 Xoar props.Â* I don't like blunt ended props.

    Garry

    You mentioned high humidity in your earlier post.

    Is it possible that your fuel absorbed moisture?

    As far as the engine peaking higher when the tank is low, that is an idication that there is a fuel delivery factor @ play. The engine will tend to run leaner when the tank is low if there is insuffecient presure in the tank to push the fuel "uphill".
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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