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  1. #24476
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

    Quote
    Where mine & Dave's methods vary is that I do not let the engine run @ a steady RPM. That is against everthing I was ever taught about breaking in an engine.

    Dan, that is an old wives tale from the 40s or maybe even the 30s, it went out the window with V8 cylinders wearing egg shaped because they were leaning over, both lines of thinking were based on ignorance. Also, if the cams really have acceleration and deceleration ramps it is most important to have clearance the .004'' offers. That explains why myself and a couple of others on here had their engines lose pm when using less than .004''. My 1.25 did that.

    So now I'm ignorant? You are a real piece of work. I've had posts deleted for less insulting language than that! Am I that big of a threat to your ego?.

    It has nothing to do W/wearing the bores egg shaped & "old wives tales". It has to do with cylinder pressure forcing the rings against the cylinder walls.

    For an "old wives tale" it sure has a lot of support these days.

    http://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...k-in-a-new-car

    http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

    http://novarossi.us/content/view/64/71/

    http://m.theglobeandmail.com/globe-d...service=mobile


    Makes one wonder if perhaps it is your theory that is based on "ignorance"?

    As far as the valve lash, why do you insist that Saito's own .04mm specification is wrong as well as Bill Robison's techniques?




    ORIGINAL: VictoryRoll

    This break-in discussion is really great and I am learning quite a bit... thank you.

    I also have always followed the ''never let the engine stay at the same RPM's for long periods while breaking it in any engine'' I never knew that it changed. I am not sure, but my tendency there would be to move the RPM's up & down from the desired RPM (4000) and then increase & decrease the RPM range by 250 to 500 RPM's (ex. start at 4000 for 2-3 mins, then 4500 for ~ one minute, then down to 3500 for a minute, then back to 4000 for two minutes or so.

    Do you think this is a sound method? I presently hold the mindset that ''what can it hurt'' by doing this process. Again, note, I have only broken in 2-stroke engines, so this may be a ''fail'' methodology.

    Your thoughts?

    Thank you for your help and understanding of my ignorance in this area.

    Don

    The proper methods haven't changed.

    The rings need a high enough "Break Mean Effective Pressure" to force the rings against the cylinder walls. Not only does the RPM need to vary, it requires wide (if not wide open) throttle openings for brief periods.

    The thing you do not want to do is bring RPM levels so high or for so long that eccessive heat damages the surfaces that you are being to "burnished".

    Once the surfaces are "burnished" properly, friction will be reduced dramatically thus allowing full power operation.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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  2. #24477

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    What I know is based on what I read in these forums and engine manuals. I understood that ringed engines you want to break in gradually and start out very rich and gradually lean in with time. It is different for ABC/ABN/ABL engines where you need to run them at peak for short bursts and then let them cool off by shutting them down repeatedly. The ABC./ABN/ABL engines need to loosen up the pinch without excessive rubbing of the plating. Running an ABC/ABL/ABN engine rich on break-in will only prevent the pinch from expanding due to heat and that causes the plating to get worn off. But Saitos are ringed engines, so you want to break them in with a rich mixture and gradually lean in to allow the piston ring to wear to the cylinder without building excessive heat. It doesn't matter how slow you take it with a ringed engine, just sit back and relax as you run them in. You will eventually get to the peak rpm and have enough Mean Effective Pressure to push the ring against the cylinder wall.
    Content, but not Complacent.

  3. #24478

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    This break in discussion is interesting. For me what works for me is what I use.  My last comment is that every one of these Saitos that I run in for someone else generally results in a convert to the Saito side.
    Old Fart that is what I used to do (the Irvine thing) when I had the money and I still occassionally see it done with Rossi's today (very rarely)
    Club Saito member 710

  4. #24479
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: hsukaria

    What I know is based on what I read in these forums and engine manuals. I understood that ringed engines you want to break in gradually and start out very rich and gradually lean in with time. It is different for ABC/ABN/ABL engines where you need to run them at peak for short bursts and then let them cool off by shutting them down repeatedly. The ABC./ABN/ABL engines need to loosen up the pinch without excessive rubbing of the plating. Running an ABC/ABL/ABN engine rich on break-in will only prevent the pinch from expanding due to heat and that causes the plating to get worn off. But Saitos are ringed engines, so you want to break them in with a rich mixture and gradually lean in to allow the piston ring to wear to the cylinder without building excessive heat. It doesn't matter how slow you take it with a ringed engine, just sit back and relax as you run them in. You will eventually get to the peak rpm and have enough Mean Effective Pressure to push the ring against the cylinder wall.

    Yes by all means take your time & avoid excessive heat, but if an engine is run too long W/O sufficient cylinder pressure, the cylinder wall will glaze before the ring is seated.

    That makes me suspect of replacing a ring W/O using some scotchbrite or something to slightly roughen up the cylinder wall.

    I have read that the chrome plating, when it is new, does have minute cracks in the surface from the electroplating that allow the ring to seat.

    One would likely never notice excessive blow by in our engines like you would in an automotive engine. Our engines have a lot of blowby (for their size)compared a large automobile engine. There would however be a loss in power.

    W/the high compression engines I modify that would likely result in a much more significant drop in performance.

    Speaking of performance. Some say that the Saito minimum valve lash spec of .04mm results in a loss of power.

    My 13:1 CR FA180HC CDI/BBC engine W/the valve lash set W/a .0015" feeler gauge developed 8550 RPM W/a Dynathrust 18 X 8 propeller. That's right @ 4HP, over 2.2HP per cu in. The minimal valve lash setting certainly doesn't seem to diminish power in my engines.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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  5. #24480
    Old Fart's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Live and let live my man
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  6. #24481
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Is the club still accepting members?
    Just got my first Saito, a FA-100 that will be the powerplant for a Top Flite P-51, guess I have to read through all the 966 pages for tips and tricks, but anyway, ain't she a beauty

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    Sig Kadet Brotherhood #50

  7. #24482
    Old Fart's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I hope so,we need to replace one we're gonna lose shortly.Do you get a summer or winter up there and how's that go with building or flying??
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  8. #24483
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Note that BMEP is purely theoretical and has nothing to do with actual cylinder pressures. It is simply a tool to evaluate the efficiency of a given engine at producing torque from a given displacement.

    BMEP is not even a real concept, it is a theory, totally unrelated to breaking in an engine. We could do this forever and only confuse people which you already have. Sticking to a plan is never a bad thing when it is reasonable, convenient, predictable and repeatable, as long at it gets the desired results. Popular Mechanics has never broken in a Saito and the issues here do not directly translate.
    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  9. #24484
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    We surely are, BLW, Barry, will give you one as soon as he sees your request. Mine is 5 so I've been doing this a while. Welcome to the Club

    PS, that's a great shot of "trial" so there won't be any error. Measure twice cut once as they say.
    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  10. #24485
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Trial??over here we call that cheating pal,mind you we already have by being lazy and flying an arf,much harder to fit an engine like that when this guy just cheats by laying the engine on a plan..i mean..does he want it any easier?
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  11. #24486
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    OF, flying the plan is about as light as you can get, he could fly it with a Saito .05
    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  12. #24487
    SrTelemaster150's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

    Note that BMEP is purely theoretical and has nothing to do with actual cylinder pressures. It is simply a tool to evaluate the efficiency of a given engine at producing torque from a given displacement.

    BMEP is not even a real concept, it is a theory, totally unrelated to breaking in an engine.

    Popular Mechanics has never broken in a Saito and the issues here do not directly translate.
    Popular Mechanics was not the only link I posted. Are you saying that Saito engines are imune to the laws of physics as they apply to ringed piston engine break in?

    If you want some literature that cites chrome lined bores, perhaps the following link can shed some light. Note that except for a very brief start up/check cycle, they do not advocate minimal load break in @ reduced RPM either.

    http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182895-1.html

    Here is a page on breaking in Continental aircraft engines. Again, except for a very brief start/check cycle, they warn against no/low load break in & the resultant glazing of the cylinder walls.

    http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm#Break-In

    The following is a link to the "Lycoming Flyer" manual. On page 2 it warns to NOT break in an engine @ low power settings. They recommend 75% power for break in.

    http://www.lycoming.com/support/tips...Operations.pdf

    Seems like the "old wives tales" have some credible people that still advocate them.

    Evolution & gravity have been refered to as "theories".

    Could you kindly cite some credible literature that supports your "theory"?
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41 - 1/3 Spacewalker

  13. #24488
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    OF and others, here is picture of Bill Robison, (WR), he was a good friend that I never met in person, he drove a Grand Mercedes 600 that he said got 5 mpg because he had modified it to 500 hp from the stock 350hp. He spent his life as a teacher, mechanic, racer, motorcycle enthusiast, historian and all around gearhead. Many of us here spent hours with him on the phone.

    Bill loved Saitos for their high quality and uniqueness. As I've mentioned previously WR borrowed this Saito .30 for his Saito notes and colored the cylinder black, it is a treasured possession because of that. What ever he colored it with is tough because I haven't managed to knock any of it off.
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    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  14. #24489
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    OF and others, here is picture of Bill Robison, (WR), he was a good friend that I never met in person, he drove a Grand Mercedes 600 that he said got 5 mpg because he had modified it to 500 hp from the stock 350hp. He spent his life as a teacher, mechanic, racer, motorcycle enthusiast, historian and all around gearhead. Many of us here spent hours with him on the phone.
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    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  15. #24490
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    OF and others, here is picture of Bill Robison, (WR), he was a good friend that I never met in person, he drove a Grand Mercedes 600 that he said got 5 mpg because he had modified it to 500 hp from the stock 350hp. He spent his life as a teacher, mechanic, racer, motorcycle enthusiast, historian and all around gearhead. Many of us here spent hours with him on the phone.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  16. #24491
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    OF and others, here is picture of Bill Robison, (WR), he was a good friend that I never met in person, he drove a Grand Mercedes 600 that he said got 5 mpg because he had modified it to 500 hp from the stock 350hp. He spent his life as a teacher, mechanic, racer, motorcycle enthusiast, historian and all around gearhead. Many of us here spent hours with him on the phone.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Xv63943.jpg 
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ID:	1865138  
    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  17. #24492
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    i have only one saito.

    It's a .50 and it's in my cub.

    I have yet to run the engine, cannot wait.
    A NOSE HEAVY PLANE FLIES BADLY A TAIL HEAVY PLANE FLIES ONCE!!!!
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  18. #24493
    Moderator Hobbsy's Avatar
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Nit, the .50, the .56 and the .62 are all three real sweetheart engines. It should turn a 12x6 at 9,500+ That'll get you Saito Club # if you want it.
    Farmall 240 the final issue of the Farmall C, Super C, 200, 230 series.
    122 Cu. In. 22 hp. A small tractor that would do big work due to its 10x36 inch rear tires.

    As competition improves products, the differences between them get smaller and smaller

    Club Saito member #5

  19. #24494
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I would love my #

    I'll tach it as soon as I get to run it, really looking forward to this one.
    A NOSE HEAVY PLANE FLIES BADLY A TAIL HEAVY PLANE FLIES ONCE!!!!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/nitroairplane?feature=mheehttp:

  20. #24495
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    Thank you all for helping me define how to break-in my new FA-100...  I will use a mix of Hobbsy's, SrTelemaster150's (Robinson) and BLW's methods... I have to think about it a bit and wait for this dang cold, crappy weather to relinquish to Springtime... man, I gotta move to FL !!!

    Again, thank you all, and I will be touching base, probably with more questions, as I start the break-in process. 

    Don
    Club Saito Member #691
    H9 Pulse XT Brotherhood #4


  21. #24496
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    It was easy to get off topic with Bill because he knew a lot about the cars and motorcycles I was brought up around. My dad had a Lotus 11 among other things, and Bill knew a lot about it and the engine. He always brought back the memories of being raised in a crazy car/bike/boat/airplane family. Good off topic talks about BSAs, Triumphs, and Norton Commandos.
    The ultimate responsibility of pilots is to fulfill the dreams of the countless millions who can only stare skyward...and wish.

    "It doesn't take but one Auburn man to be a majority" -Coach Pat Dye

  22. #24497
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    ORIGINAL: blw

    It was easy to get off topic with Bill because he knew a lot about the cars and motorcycles I was brought up around. My dad had a Lotus 11 among other things, and Bill knew a lot about it and the engine. He always brought back the memories of being raised in a crazy car/bike/boat/airplane family. Good off topic talks about BSAs, Triumphs, and Norton Commandos.
    Ah, the BSA motorcycle.

    B****** Siezed Already!

    After spending about 5 years learning the quirks, in the early '70s, I would still love to have a restored '67 Lightning. (I had a Thunderbolt)
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41 - 1/3 Spacewalker

  23. #24498
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I was researching whatever at the time and stumbled across a photo of Will Robison on what looked like an egli vincent,whatever it was i'd have given a months pay for a hours ride on it.
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  24. #24499
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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


    ORIGINAL: Old Fart

    I was researching whatever at the time and stumbled across a photo of Will Robison on what looked like an egli vincent,whatever it was i'd have given a months pay for a hours ride on it.

    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
    SIG BH #41 - 1/3 Spacewalker

  25. #24500

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    RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

    I took out my FA-82 and ran it on the bench. I installed an APC 14x6, used 20% nitro, 20% synth oil. I used an electric starter this time and it started easily. I got around 9000 rpm, quite impressive to me. I am looking forward to using it this coming flying season.

    Before running it, I sprayed penetrant oil at the valves with the intake and exhaust manifold removed as was suggested. Then I re-adjusted the valve gaps, it turns out that they were much wider than Saito recommends.
    Content, but not Complacent.


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