Broken Wings

My Feedback: (20)

You have to go to their web-site to check the lube content. They came out with a New Cool Power MV (Multi Viscosity) with 18% lube. Or you can buy Cool Power Pro-Pattern which is 20/20 or YS fuel...

I've used Wildcat as well as Sig Champion. Anything with CASTOR in it......(Smiles) I just bought 6 gallons of PowerMaster from Tower with free shipping, still had to pay the fee but I got 6 metal cans" in the box instead of the regular 4 gallon plastic bottles.

N1EDM

My Feedback: (2)

My LHS only carries synthetic fuel, but they also carried quart jars of Bakers AA Caster Oil. So, I grabbed a jug and put about 1/3 cup of caster into every gallon, just to give myself that warm, fuzzy feeling.

Bob

Broken Wings

My Feedback: (20)

More lube, better ring seal, less wear... warm fuzzy feeling.

SrTelemaster150

I wasn't aware that there would be voting, just a comparison of power output & fuel economy.

As far as the prop, Old Fart chose the 20 x 8 MAS Classic & I went out & spent scarce finacial assets on 1 so that is cast in stone as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, as long as both engines are spinning the same propeller, a comparrison can be made regardless of makeor design as long as it isn't something that is way out in left field.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

I was only joking, Dan. Of course the props you choose is your business and fine. I meant if somebody joked about you winning, or Old Fart. The whole thread and contest is yours and OF's, imo.

My finances are scarce right now too, so I know what you mean. It ain't fun.

SrTelemaster150

Quote:

Originally Posted by blw

I was only joking, Dan. Of course the props you choose is your business and fine. I meant if somebody joked about you winning, or Old Fart. The whole thread and contest is yours and OF's, imo.

My finances are scarce right now too, so I know what you mean. It ain't fun.

I really don't see it as anyone "winning" rather an experiment to explore the merits/advantages of one or the other. I expect the power outcome to be very close, either way. I would also expect the power advantage W/the larger prop to be leaning towards the larger displacement engine. I do think that the smaller CDI engine would be significantly more fuel efficient.

I am very interested in finding out & would appreciate the opportunity. I want the test conditions to be as equal for each engine as practical & would even provide a DENSITY ALTITUDE CALCULATOR for factoring in small differences. Those calculators are not 100% accurate when DA conditions are significantly different but they help to level the playing field by selecting days that have similar conditions, especially when the test are run in 2 different hemispheres.

I also want to add that it was Old Fart that “threw down the gauntlet” so don’t think I have some sort of ax to grind. I just always wanted to see if my engine will perform up to the level of the FA220 as my tests have suggested. Old Fart just provided me W/that opportunity. Heck, it even has me wondering what I might achieve W/a modified/optimized FA220 CDI/methanol engine. 4 1/2 HP?

jetpoweredmonkey

My Feedback: (11)

Hi all, my first post here in the mega Saito thread. I just bought an FA-270T from the classifieds. I believe it is the "Mark 1" as it has a single carb, intake ports on the top of the cylinder and exhaust 180 degrees around on the bottom of the cylinder. The seller described it honestly as "rough" and had been sitting for 10 years with no lube. The price was low enough to give it a try.

It arrived today and it's dirty but doesn't really look like it's been run much. It did not turn easily so I didn't try. I disassembled it carefully tonight and got it apart without damaging anything, down to the crankcase - I'll need to get a hardened Allen driver to remove the rods.

Well, the good news is that there is little or no rust, the rods move freely on the crank, it will need bearings but that's not a difficult job. Nothing looks to be very worn, the piston tops are nice and clean. The only real problem I found is that one of the pistons had overheated and seized. The ring is stuck, but it won't be difficult to get it loose and remove it. The cylinder has some scuffing but no aluminum stuck to it. The other piston, ring and cylinder look great.

I am thinking about cleaning it all up, smoothing out the seized piston and installing a new ring, but i have a few questions. First, should I put a tooth on the seized cylinder using fine sandpaper or emery cloth? Second, any reason not to use the seized piston as long as it is cleaned up well? And finally, does this appear to be the correct ring? I don't see a listing in the Horizon Saito parts codes for the "Mark 1", so this ring is actually from the "Mark 2" listing.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/products...et-t-SAI270T32

SrTelemaster150

Your link brings up a gasket set. Not much could be told from a photo anyway.

I'm not that familiar W/the 270, but I would doubt that Saito would use differing bore diameters on any variants of the same diplacement/type of engine. They have an amazing interchangability of pistons/rings when different configuration engines, singles/twins/radials share common bore diameters. If the FA270T has a similar bore as an FA120, the FA120 piston might work. The FA300T & FA150 have the same piston as far as I can tell by measurement even though they have differing part #s. FA150 & FA300T pistons/rings are mixed/matched in the various single, twin & radial configurations. The 270T & 300T use the same rods.

You might get the reworked piston to function but usually, when a piston siezes, the skirt warps. Clean it up & mic' the skirt for the same dimensions as the good piston. If there is any discrepency, you might want to explore the FA120 piston option. I wouldn't use anything harsher than a course (brown) scotcbrite pad on the bores.

If you get the ring, just check the width in the ring grooves of your pistons, then use the piston to push the ring squarely into the bore & check for acceptable minimum ring gap. The Saito manual lists .0095" for a 300T so that should be ballpark for the 270T.

If you remove the rods, make sure you mark the conrod for cylinder & rod cap orientation as if you get either mixed up the clearance will likely be altered.

HERE IS A POST that gives torque spec's for the rod cap fasteners & a link for a gunsmith's torque driver to assure correct torque.(post # 35)

HERE IS A LINK for an imperial (english) torque value chart. (post #36)

ANOTHER OPTION for a torque wrench that is most likely a little better quality than the Wheeler wrench above.

EDIT: See post below.

SrTelemaster150

OK, I just did a quick Google search for Saito FA 270 bore diameter & came up W/a post from here where the FA270 is discibed as having the FA150 bore & FA120 stroke. A quick calculation gave me 2.75 cu in so it seems that the information may be correct.

If you can measure the skirt diameter, total piston height, compression hieght from the top of the wrist pin bore to the piston crown & ring grove width I can compare those to a used FA150 piston I have on my bench.

It's entirely possible that the FA270 & FA150 pistons may be interchagable. If they are a direct interchange I have a good, used FA150 piston/ring that you could have for the cost of shipping.


The other possibility is that the hieght of the pistons may vary but buying a pair could still be an option as there are .020" cylinder base shims available from CH-Ignitions.

jetpoweredmonkey

My Feedback: (11)

Senior Tele - thanks a ton! Great info. Here is what I have discovered. In my cherished Clarence Lee "The R/C 4 Stroke Engine" RCM book, and at the link below, I've read the review of the original FA-270T (which mine appears to be). According to Clarence, the 270 uses a 120 piston with a longer stroke.

http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Eng...20FA-270T.html

This seems to be borne out by the fact that the piston and ring coded by Horizon for the later 270s is also coded for the 120. Sorry, posted the wrong link above.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/products...u-ff-SAI120S06
http://www.horizonhobby.com/products...u-ff-SAI120S09

So, that more or less clears up the piston/ring question. It looks to me like what I need is a new piston/ring, a set of crank bearings, and a gasket set. I might also want to replace the rubber seals around the pushrod tubes, but they are a little expensive since they only come with a set of tubes, apparently. Will have to see about that.

Looking inside the engine, there is no build-up in the combustion chambers at all. In fact there is barely any discoloration. I doubt this engine had much running time at all.

I may take the crankcase through my blasting cabinet to restore the original bead blasted finish if it won't clean up with the "Demon Clean" which is on its way.

Thanks also for the links to the torque wrench and specs. That does seem like a mandatory tool, maybe I'll see if any of the local gun shops have one I could use on their bench. So much good info, thank you!

SrTelemaster150

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetpoweredmonkey

Senior Tele - thanks a ton! Great info. Here is what I have discovered. In my cherished Clarence Lee "The R/C 4 Stroke Engine" RCM book, and at the link below, I've read the review of the original FA-270T (which mine appears to be). According to Clarence, the 270 uses a 120 piston with a longer stroke.

http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/Saito%20FA-270T.html

This seems to be borne out by the fact that the piston and ring coded by Horizon for the later 270s is also coded for the 120. Sorry, posted the wrong link above.
http://www.horizonhobby.com/products/piston-l-n-t-u-ff-SAI120S06
http://www.horizonhobby.com/products/piston-ring-l-n-t-u-ff-SAI120S09

So, that more or less clears up the piston/ring question. It looks to me like what I need is a new piston/ring, a set of crank bearings, and a gasket set. I might also want to replace the rubber seals around the pushrod tubes, but they are a little expensive since they only come with a set of tubes, apparently. Will have to see about that.

That makes more sense than the 150 bore/120 stroke as the 120 bore/150 stroke combo comes up to 2.698 cu in, although Clarence quotes a stroke .5mm longer. Make sure you get a set of Teflon buttons for the wrist pins as according to Clarence Lee, the original 270 piston uses a step on one side of the wrist pin bore instead of a button. You will need a total of 4 of them. If you don't have 4, order Part# SAI300T08.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetpoweredmonkey

Looking inside the engine, there is no build-up in the combustion chambers at all. In fact there is barely any discoloration. I doubt this engine had much running time at all.

I may take the crankcase through my blasting cabinet to restore the original bead blasted finish if it won't clean up with the "Demon Clean" which is on its way.

Try to avoid bead blasting as it might then be more prone to staining. If you bead blast get some Harley Davidson flat aluminum case paint & bake it @ 300°F for a few hours after it dries. Let it cool before handling as the paint is vulnerable to easy damage until it has cooled. After that it will be impervious to just about anything. Next best thing is high temp engine paint from an auto parts retailer. There are several methods of cleaning the case posted on this site. Soaking in a crock pot filled W/anti-freeze is recommended by some but i have too many animals around to chance that.

My personal preference is the bead blast/baked on case paint method.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

Have you read the experiences of people using an old crock pot set to low heat for cleaning engine parts? A lot of us use antifreeze and leave the parts covered for 10-12 hours. It always works. Send me a private message if you want more info.....or someone else may post more here.

bob62

My Feedback: (28)

wholesale trains .com has a excellent supply of parts for Saito's, they are not tried to Harizon

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

I tried that within the last 30 days and all I got was ugly miss colored metal.

After talking to a friend who reports results similar to what you talk about, the issue seems to be the "anti freeze" used. Given the results we have concluded that Prestone works, the cheap crap does not.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

Jim,

what was your heat setting? Too hot will produce the same discoloration.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Well, it has a low and a hot setting and I would bet it was on the hot setting but I honestly don't remember. What I do know is that for years I have heard what a great and wonderful job of renewing the looks of the engines and cleaning the garbage out of them this method was but I have not seem touted results.

All three engines were locked up because the previous user had put them away without AFO. NONE of the engines were freed up by this method. I used a method brought home from the USMMA by my son and IT WORKED!

I soaked each engine in pure lemon juice for a short time (less than an hour?) and they turned so I rinsed them completely in water while brushing with an acid brush (cheap simple shop brush sold by the 100's), oiled them up, reinstalled the back plates and carburetors, mounted and ran them.

YMMV

blw

My Feedback: (3)

I guess you learn something new every day around here. I would have never tried citric acid myself. On those kinds of engines I fill them with glow fuel. Sometimes they turn over after a few hours, sometimes after an overnight soaking. The crockpot set on the lowest setting has always cleaned everything to shiny metal except for the more stubborn spots on a couple of 4 stroke mufflers. I've got an engine that was abused some, but probably not as bad as yours. I'll try some lemon juice one day just to see what the acid will do.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

My experience with crock pots is that some will eventually boil - even on the low setting if you have the cover on.

I have had more success with a potpourri pot but even then you have to add water as it evaporates off.

N1EDM

My Feedback: (2)

I found a very small crock pot, perfect for engine cleaning and have used the cheapest antifreeze I can find. When done, I filter out the bad goo and use it over again.

I have a question on the citric acid method, though. What do you use for lemon juice? Is this the lemon juice concentrate that you find in the supermarket or the fresh squeezed stuff???

Also, do you just let something sit in it at room temperature for several hours or do you heat it in the crock pot.

If you haven't use the crock pot method, look around for one of those small things (found mine in a drug store for $10) and it doesn't take too much to fill it up.

Bob

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Yeah, juice made from concentrate at the supermarket. Real Lemon is the brand name I used, but it may be a local named product. Yes, I let it sit at room temperature - DO NOT HEAT IT!... The boy says it eats rust, and he appears to be right enough for me that I thought I would share my experiences. He demonstrated it on some other rusted stuff before I tried it, so I did not go in blind.

FNQFLYER

Moving into new work shop. Getting stuff back from under ex's house. So far 1xSaito 30, 1x Saito 82B, 1 x Flightline Fleetwing Biplane (of some sort, scale) 2 x Marutaka Kits, Ju87 and Stinson Reliant, and a Premier Tigher Moth all good scale stuff. Next box to move is the Saito box. I have also found my little rd Saito book and my little blue OS book so the world is coming together again at long last.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

Maybe that's why real old crockpots work best? Mine is one of those ancient, big ones. The heating element may be getting weak, but the low setting is hot enough to be uncomfortable if you pick up parts with fingers, but it won't burn skin outright. Whatever brand of antifreeze that I'm using seems to loose its potency after 2 or 3 uses. My wife probably bought the crockpot 20 years ago.

I have a newer sonic cleaner, and it will soften and clean the remaining castor burnt on mufflers in plain water. That is perfect for dumping in a carb with the needle valve still screwed in. You can see the oils dissolve and float away.

FF- have fun setting up shop.

N1EDM

My Feedback: (2)

Thanks for clearing that up, Jim. RealLemon at room temp. And thanks FNQ on the sonic cleaner. I realized that I have a broken one that someone tossed out. I have to see if I can get it to work again. Hmmm, room temp lemon juice in a sonic cleaner... that would be a combo, eh?

Thanks again,

Bob

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Holy Cow! All the engines turn and I have gotten all but ONE to run. That one has the carb barrel frozen and so far nothing I have tried made it move.

Where to buy a sonic cleaner....

blw

My Feedback: (3)

Amazon. All kinds of price ranges, and lots of reviews. Mine is a New Trent. It was about $35 shipped. I need it for other things too. I was surprised at how well it works.