Glow Engines Discuss RC glow engines

Club FOX!

Old 12-19-2012, 09:38 AM
  #2926
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Default RE: Club FOX!

From what I read the Eagle engines are considered "Long Stroke" so are more for swinging larger props than all out screaming top end. You may find a larger diameter prop still comes out close. It's also true about the stock mufflers. However, if you have not caught them already there are several of us that have come up with better solutions for that one and can be found here with a bit of reading.

I too thought the numbers low for my new 60, but it was not anywhere near broken in yet and with that comes the warning if you have not read of my troubles.

Double check with Fox as to the max nitro content. Although there was nothing published in the instructions, I found my 15% was high enough to burn the piston very quickly. I think the head button has been updated. Never hurts to confirm.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:07 AM
  #2927
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I have experience with only 1 Fox engine, an Eagle 74. I bought it used, but shoulda bought it new and saved myself a lot of trouble. You can learn a lot from reading this whole forum, but at least read some.

The new Fox engines have the new head buttons and carburators, making them very easy to tune. However, it is still a low nitro engine and requires a long break-in period. I use 0-5% nitro. Others here claimed 10% works for their latest version. What I would do if I were you, is run at least a gallon of fuel through it on the bench. Get you some earplugs and a good book and relax while breaking it in.[8D] I think most, including Fox Manufacturing, recommend some castor oil in the fuel.

I'm looking forward to next flying season, I had been using an MVVS muffler on it. Next I will try a homemade mousse can muffler. Finally, I will promote it to a Jett muffler.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:58 AM
  #2928
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Well, the last new Fox .60 engine I bought and ran, worked pretty good right out of the box. I normally just use 5% nitro glow fuel, so I typically don't have the problems that others do, trying to use higher nitro content glow fuel in the engines. I ran a few tanks of fuel through it with a 11x7 prop and the stock muffler. By then it was loosening up pretty good. So I put on one of my Performance Specialty tuned mufflers using a bridge adapter I made. The engine ran as good as my Rossi .60 engine does. 

I like to heat cycle the engines when I break them in, I run it for a while, then let it cool off, run it, cool it off, and so on several times. The first run is extra rich and I don't try to lean it out much or run it full throttle either. Then on each subsequent run I lean it out a little more. Eventually it gets to where it'll hold full throttle good with the needle set a little on the rich side.

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Old 12-20-2012, 05:40 AM
  #2929
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: earlwb

Well, the last new Fox .60 engine I bought and ran, worked pretty good right out of the box. I normally just use 5% nitro glow fuel, so I typically don't have the problems that others do, trying to use higher nitro content glow fuel in the engines. I ran a few tanks of fuel through it with a 11x7 prop and the stock muffler. By then it was loosening up pretty good. So I put on one of my Performance Specialty tuned mufflers using a bridge adapter I made. The engine ran as good as my Rossi .60 engine does.

I like to heat cycle the engines when I break them in, I run it for a while, then let it cool off, run it, cool it off, and so on several times. The first run is extra rich and I don't try to lean it out much or run it full throttle either. Then on each subsequent run I lean it out a little more. Eventually it gets to where it'll hold full throttle good with the needle set a little on the rich side.

Does the Fox Eagle IV .60 come with an ABC piston/liner or is it ringed? Either way, doesn't past wisdom say 2-strokes should be ran WOT to break-in? The exceptions being 4-strokes and the oddball engines like the backwards AAC K&B Sportsters...
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:24 AM
  #2930
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ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r


Quote:
ORIGINAL: earlwb

Well, the last new Fox .60 engine I bought and ran, worked pretty good right out of the box. I normally just use 5% nitro glow fuel, so I typically don't have the problems that others do, trying to use higher nitro content glow fuel in the engines. I ran a few tanks of fuel through it with a 11x7 prop and the stock muffler. By then it was loosening up pretty good. So I put on one of my Performance Specialty tuned mufflers using a bridge adapter I made. The engine ran as good as my Rossi .60 engine does.

I like to heat cycle the engines when I break them in, I run it for a while, then let it cool off, run it, cool it off, and so on several times. The first run is extra rich and I don't try to lean it out much or run it full throttle either. Then on each subsequent run I lean it out a little more. Eventually it gets to where it'll hold full throttle good with the needle set a little on the rich side.

Does the Fox Eagle IV .60 come with an ABC piston/liner or is it ringed? Either way, doesn't past wisdom say 2-strokes should be ran WOT to break-in? The exceptions being 4-strokes and the oddball engines like the backwards AAC K&B Sportsters...
I'm not the expert here. But break-in for ringed engines is different than ABC/ABN/ABL/AAC engines. The ringed engines you want to run extra rich and gradually lean out over a longer period of time, as earlwb mentioned. That allows the piston ring to gradually wear in to perfectly match the cylinder. The ABC/ABN/ABL/AAC types need to run full on (not super rich, but only slightly rich) for very short bursts of time and then immediately shut them off to let them cool down completely. The heat cycling allows the cylinder pinch to open up and not undergo excessive friction that would cause the chrome or nickel coating to wear off. The worst thing you can do to an ABC/ABN/ABL engine is to run it super rich and cool during break-in. All that does is prevent the cylinder pinch from opening up by heat and causes excessive friction that would ruin the liner coating, especially the soft nickel.
But, the larger (60 and 74) Fox engines are now all ringed (except the expensive ceramic control line 60). So, run-in is as earlwb described.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:25 PM
  #2931
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Default RE: Club FOX!

It's been outlined to me that nearly all engines be run WOT to break in [almost] all engines. Tapered bore engines run only slightly rich whereas ringed/lapped engines get the 4-stroke rich break in. I run all of my engines at WOT, but the non-tapered bore engines get run 4-stroking for the first 5-10 minutes and over the next hour or so gradually leaned. I usually burn close to a gallon on ringed and lapped engines on the bench.

I have several break-in videos on YouTube of my break-in regimen.

As soon as I square up in this G51, I'm looking at getting a Fox .60 and maybe a screaming banshee .35 (Jett BSE) for my birthday presents to myself.

I'm hoping my Son's first word is 'nitro'.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:34 PM
  #2932
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just don't be too upset if your son ends up going electric. My sons want electric only[&o]
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:10 PM
  #2933
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Default RE: Club FOX!

Well I try to keep the break in instructions more or less simple for people. Heat cycling the engines is nothing new, they were doing it many years ago with the Brown Jr, O&R, Forster engines, et cetera. This is where you run the engine WOT for a short time, go back to idle for a short time and stop the engine and let it cool off, and then repeat. The harder short run, helps seat the ring faster. But the harder WOT run is actually done still on the rich side with the engine four cycling. After a few heat cycles, I lean the engine out a little and repeat. Other than that it is quite similar to the longer explanation below.

Nowadays people just do not seem to have the patience nor the interest to break in a engine properly or even try sometimes. They want to fire up a new engine, adjust it and go flying at WOT, right off the bat. Unfortunately, you cannot do that with a ringed engine. ABC/ABL/ABN engines tend to be somewhat more forgiving in that matter, but I still see lots of people trashing those ringless engines still.

But technically it goes something like this, but I think many people's eyes will glass over and they won't do it like this.  But it does work good though. especially if you were planning on using the ringed engine for competition.  I prefer to use no nitro or low nitro glow fuel in the Fox engines, but people just tend to ignore me on that matter and go with the higher nitro glow fuels though.

I like to make my first run of a ringed engine just at the 2 to 4 cycle break but on the 4 cycle side and at full throttle (carb wide open. The thought process is that one needs to reach maximum cylinder pressure to drive the ring into the cylinder's cross hatch and at the same time keep the ring cool. It is known that at the 2/4 cycle point when the combustion chamber fires that the cylinder pressure is the highest other than at detonation. Also at this rich mixture setting the there is extra oil available to keep the ring cool. The ring needs this because the contact with the cylinder is not complete to allow the ring to effectively transfer its heat to the cylinder walls. One also gets a free cooling cycle (oil with no added heat) in the 4 cycle mode as the engine only fires on every other rotation.

Once the ring starts to show signs of starting to seat (that's another discussion) I start to thermal cycle the engine to take into account the change in cylinder shape as a result the thermal discontinuities in our toy engine designs, I pinch the fuel line to bump the rpm into the 2 cycle range then allow the engine cool down into the 2/4 cycle break point. I do this until I can see that the ring is half seated. With a 3x glass you can usually see where the manufacturing marks in the ring are wearing into the cylinder. When half of these are polished down the engine is ready for some sports flying. When I say half seated I mean that 1/2 the ring is thickness (height) is showing full contact with the cylinder. On the Fox 10cc ringed engines this takes about 36 to 100 ounces of fuel to get the engine ready for sport flying. It takes me about another 3 to 4 gallons before I can push the engine to my expected power levels.  During the initial sport flying I like to do a lot of Cuban Eights as I think this cycles the engine just about perfectly.

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Old 12-21-2012, 04:04 AM
  #2934
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: hsukaria

just don't be too upset if your son ends up going electric. My sons want electric only[&o]
I won't be upset, he may not like RC at all and want to quilt with momma bear. Who knows.

Earl: I agree with your break-in routine, though the subtle difference for me is not flying the engine (yet). I use extra oil and keep the engine 1000rpm rich or so, and go "play". My SuperTigres are ready for mixture-lean (300-400rpm rich) operation at about 1-1.5 gallons using Bowman rings and 1.5-2.5 gallons on stock ST rings. I guess I didn't feel I was rushing it, but perhaps I was a little hasty. Because I don't fly yet, I have to do things differently.

I don't know if anyone is interested, but I have one of the early high compression head buttons for a fox .40 small frame engine (1983). I've heard heard these were sought after by some. If anyone wants it and has a junk button to swap me, one can just have it. .840" bore I think. This engine will get traded in on the Fox .60.
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Old 12-21-2012, 05:59 AM
  #2935
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I know that the rpm claims by Fox don't sound like much difference between the Eagle IV 60 & 74, but it is very noticeable in flight. I run 11 x 10, 12 x 8, or 13 x 6 on my 74's. I love the way the planes fly with the extra power not really any speed difference, but easy long verticals and constant speed. I have both the ring and ABC versions of each. Get ready for a fairly long break-in process, but you will be rewarded with a real jewel. I have tried just about every type of break-in I have read about. To me, the heat cycling is the key. I use short runs with complete cool down in-between runs. When I put it in the air, I'm pretty easy with it for the first gallon ( not alot of high G's or extended verticals). I have had people offer to pay me to break-in their engines, I just tell them to furnish the fuel and I'll do it for a friend. I love to see people excited about the way their engines run!
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: turbo.gst

I know that the rpm claims by Fox don't sound like much difference between the Eagle IV 60 & 74, but it is very noticeable in flight. I run 11 x 10, 12 x 8, or 13 x 6 on my 74's. I love the way the planes fly with the extra power not really any speed difference, but easy long verticals and constant speed. I have both the ring and ABC versions of each. Get ready for a fairly long break-in process, but you will be rewarded with a real jewel. I have tried just about every type of break-in I have read about. To me, the heat cycling is the key. I use short runs with complete cool down in-between runs. When I put it in the air, I'm pretty easy with it for the first gallon ( not alot of high G's or extended verticals). I have had people offer to pay me to break-in their engines, I just tell them to furnish the fuel and I'll do it for a friend. I love to see people excited about the way their engines run!
I have SuperTigres (Italian made), so long break-in is nothing new. I relish the idea of supporting a US company making a US made product. It really bugs me that my Fox .40 ate its piston and liner not once, but TWICE. It sounded like it was gonna run like a ragged squirrel until the prop stopped dead at 9000rpm and the propnut came loose and the prop fell off. Locked it up solid... I miss it even though I only ran it on the test stand. Sad.

It didnt squeak like my K&B's though.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:04 AM
  #2937
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Well I have been using a old Fox Blue Head .60 engine (made circa 1967) on an on and it still runs good. It doesn't develop the power that a modern Schnuerle .60 engine does, but it is still running good. heck it still has the original main bearings in it. I did replace the rings in it though.
It even has needle bearings on the rod too.

So with reasonable care and barring some unforseen tragedy the Fox engines should have incredibly long lifetimes.

But yeah, I have killed a few Fox engines over the years. I did in a few engines pylon racing. Then I ruined a few engines trying out some free promotional 100% synthetic oil glow fuel when the fuel first came out. Then of course I have had the inevitable crashes that did in some engines too.

On of my old Fox Hawk .60 engines came close to ruining a cylinder, but fortunately the C-clip holding the piston pin in just scratched the piston on its way out without damaging the cylinder.  Those C-clips used on the wrist pins are one time use only clips. They need to be replaced each time it is removed. The C-clips are quite brittle and easy to damage. It could also happen at the factory when they put them together too.

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Old 12-21-2012, 08:27 AM
  #2938
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Default RE: Club FOX!

years ago i run my plane into the ground doing a very low flyby and the muffler grabbed the dry lake surface and i was using an alum. mount and the engs' mounting rail pulled the side of the eng. block out, destroying the eng. that hawk .60 was my favorite eng. even up to today!!!!!!! as luck would have it the hawk and parts had been discont. by fox. i kept the eng. around for a long time as remember, moved a couple of times and i must have thrown it away as i had moved on with other things. i recently bought several hawk .60's off ebay and rcu sale listins. i have modified the head asper flite solutions instructions on my lathe. have not run the eng. yet tho. FOX ENGINES ROCK!!!!!!![8D]
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:56 AM
  #2939
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: earlwb

Well I have been using a old Fox Blue Head .60 engine (made circa 1967) on an on and it still runs good. It doesn't develop the power that a modern Schnuerle .60 engine does, but it is still running good. heck it still has the original main bearings in it. I did replace the rings in it though.
It even has needle bearings on the rod too.

So with reasonable care and barring some unforseen tragedy the Fox engines should have incredibly long lifetimes.

But yeah, I have killed a few Fox engines over the years. I did in a few engines pylon racing. Then I ruined a few engines trying out some free promotional 100% synthetic oil glow fuel when the fuel first came out. Then of course I have had the inevitable crashes that did in some engines too.

On of my old Fox Hawk .60 engines came close to ruining a cylinder, but fortunately the C-clip holding the piston pin in just scratched the piston on its way out without damaging the cylinder. Those C-clips used on the wrist pins are one time use only clips. They need to be replaced each time it is removed. The C-clips are quite brittle and easy to damage. It could also happen at the factory when they put them together too.

FREE PROMOTIONAL FUEL...that's a scary thought!!![X(]

I like the idea of needle bearings in the rod. It would make for a good gas conversion.

I keep hoping that Fox would come out with a souped up .90 along with an effective tuned muffler. I would jump on it. Meanwhile, I might trade in something for a new .74. The old .74 I have is a showpiece to the guys at the club that you can have good performance and tune-ability without nitro in the fuel.
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Old 12-22-2012, 05:32 AM
  #2940
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Well many years ago I was at a pattern competition (classic pattern as it is called today, but it was state of the art way back then) a representative from one of the glow fuel companies was there. He was touting their newest  glow fuel product with 100% synthetic oil as being the greatest thing ever to be using, Anyway, he gave me a gallon to try out for myself. A week later I tried the stuff and promptly destroyed three Fox .60 engines trying to get the engines adjusted to run OK. So I gave up on the stuff and another fellow expressed interest in the fuel so I gave him the gallon jug. He promptly destroyed the engines on his two planes he had brought out. He then decided he didn't like the stuff either and gave the jug to someone else, who destroyed his engine. That guy poured the jug out on the ground and threw away the empty container.

Now then I have dabbled with 100% synthetic oil glow fuel many years later and I can successfully get it to work OK in my engines, But I just don't trust the stuff too much though. So I prefer to have some castor oil mixed in with the fuel. That has worked well for me since those early days experiences. nowadays I use a blend of synthetic and castor oil. But in those early years I used all castor oil in my fuel.

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Old 12-22-2012, 06:25 AM
  #2941
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I have to agree. It was all castor when I started and although synthetic is far less trouble to clean up, especially in cold weather, the extra protection castor offers, more importantly in a higher performance engine or the inadvertent lean run, far outweighs any negatives.
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:13 AM
  #2942
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Cougar429

I have to agree. It was all castor when I started and although synthetic is far less trouble to clean up, especially in cold weather, the extra protection castor offers, more importantly in a higher performance engine or the inadvertent lean run, far outweighs any negatives.
+1!
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:57 AM
  #2943
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Got a question for the rest of the Fox aficionados.

Along with several OS 32 heli motors someone had included a YS 50 heli motor in a bulk package I grabbed a while ago. Too valuable to pass up and with a set of bearings and a new ring, (broke that one myself....DOH!) the engine is now back together. I modified a prop flange and the prop with drive washer and nut just fits, but there is no way in hell a spinner would be added to the mix. Just for the heck of it I wanted to see how this one would run and worst case I can modify one of the Fox carbs to fit the mount in place of their pressure regulating type.

I seem to remember Fox offering prop shaft extensions and wonder if anyone has any info. This has the stock 1/4-28 thread.
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Old 12-22-2012, 01:52 PM
  #2944
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Fox still offers them. They come in 1/2 and 3/4 inch extensions. I have one I bought 35 years ago but have never used. You can see them here (bottom of page) on the Fox site:

http://www.foxmanufacturing.com/inde...ort=20a&page=3

Bruce
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:02 PM
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I saw that earlier. Only problem there is no pic showing what it looks like.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:43 PM
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Cougar,
I have one in my hand - 1/4x28x1/2" NIP (old stock). PM me your address and it's yours for Christmas.
Regards,
Jim
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:14 PM
  #2947
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ORIGINAL: SRQFlyer

Cougar,
I have one in my hand - 1/4x28x1/2'' NIP (old stock). PM me your address and it's yours for Christmas.
Regards,
Jim
Well! If you want to be Santa, I have this whole list of things I need...

Actually, I have a similar need to space out the spinner backplate 1/8 inch. But I was worried about putting a spacer between the engine and spinner backplate. Does anybody know how to handle that? As it is, the spinner backplate rubs against the engine cowl. I bought this plane used and the engine mount holes came predrilled for some other engine.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:54 PM
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Sent. Thanks a lot.

hsukaria, in cases like yours I find it a lot easier simply to replace the engine mount. You retain the full strength and unless other openings don't restrict engine shift this may be the best option.

Another thing I've found is the plastic spinners usually are countersunk, meaning the thrust washer is recessed forward into the spinner back plate. Alloy spinners are usually flush so give you a bit of leeway.
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:15 PM
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Santa here -
Try a piece of thick leather as a spacer. An added bonus is that the prop will never slip!
Happy Holidays!
Jim
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:23 PM
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I am using an aluminum spinner, so, the backplate is flat. I thought about adding a plywood piece between the firewall and the engine mount. But that is a lot more work than a piece of leather. I now have an extra spinner backplate between the engine and the spinner backplate. But have not run the engine with that setup fearing that it will slip and loose up during flight.
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