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Thread: Club FOX!


  1. #176

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    RE: Club FOX!


    ORIGINAL: rainedave

    I think Duke, bless his heart, was a strange bird.

    I just finished running an old - 1965, I think, .15 R/C. I had to familiarize myself with his "carburetor" since I've never seen anything like it before. The fuel line nipple is the LS adjustment.

    It starts easily with a healthy prime. But, what surprised me was how well the throttle actually works. It doesn't look like it would, but it does. It's pretty loud running wide open, sort of like my Medallion .15 w/throttle.

    Anyway, I thought I'd post some photos since this is the Fox thread. I actually have a set of plans that shows this very engine: the Peppermint Pattie.

    David

    ------------


    I had no idea that the rotatable (and adjustable) fuel nipple carb went back that far. I learned something new today.

    I learned how to fly inverted (control line) using one of these engines with the non throttle carb. Break-in? What was that? It was 1962 and I didn't know anything about castor oil. I was using 39 Glo by Testors fuel at the time. It was the only thing our local hobbyshop would stock.

    My biggest complaint with many Fox engines was their approach to designing and implementing mufflers. Some of them were good at staying on the engine, but many of them continually loosened during flight and fell into the weeds. Oddly enough, I never lost one (luck), but I know plenty of folks that did and they grew tired of it and stopped using Fox engines because of it.

    I had a Fox .45 BB that I bought in the late seventies from Tower Hobbies. It was extremely high revving and had a raised "wart" on the intake bypass side of the crankcase. It ran great, once you figured out how to adjust the carb (RTFM stupid!). The only problem I had with it was that sometimes it would just quit for no apparent reason. I never did figure out what was up with that, but it sure could honk when it did run. I ended up selling it to a friend. I still miss that engine. It was unique.

    My original Fox Eagle .60 (baffled piston) was a real bear to break-in with its two piston rings. Two hours slobbery rich on the bench and it still wouldn't finish a tank of fuel when flying in the model. Nope, not bubbles in the fuel line. Just tight. At about 50 flights it transitioned into a wonderful engine, but still required an electric starter to get it going without wearing out my arm. I usually get engines to hand start within a few flips. Don't know what I was doing wrong to this day.

    This engine would not rev above 10.5k rpm, regardless of how small the prop was (10x6). But, you could load it down with a hefty 12x7 or 13x6 and it still turned 10.5k rpm. Others have since told me that their Eagle .60's turned another thousand rpm, but did not like props larger than an 11x7.5. I have no idea why mine was different. No, I didn't take it apart and accidentally reverse the sleeve, but I did think about checking it. However, gazing into the exhaust port revealed that everything was lined up properly.

    I had this Eagle .60 on a heavy Kaos I had built. While the Kaos did not fly fast with this engine, the engine did not slow down in typical two-stroke fashion when looping. I had/have never seen anything like it. I put many, many flights on that engine and model combo. I wish I could fly it again now, just for the memories.

    Ed Cregger
    \"Practice makes prefect\"

    Saito Club Member #52

  2. #177

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    RE: Club FOX!


    ORIGINAL: MScooling

    Hello All,

    I have a Fox 15BB R/C I'm having problems with. I have the engine tuned great when on the ground, but once in flight it will almost always die. It sounds like it leans out, looses power, then quits. The cylinder head is smoking hot once I manage to land it. No matter how rich I run it on the ground, it leans out in flight and quits. So far I have lost 2 Lanier Shrikes due to this engine.

    I understand you cannot tune it like an O.S./Japanese engine. The instruction manual calls for 3.5 turns on the high speed and 1 turn on the low speed. At one turn on the low speed, it will not even start. I need at least 3 turns to get it running reliably on the ground.

    I have cleaned out the carb (MKX), needles look brand new, compression is good, muffler is tight, fuel tank is level with the carb (even tried different fuel tanks and fuel lines). Break-in was done according to the manual, and there's at least a gallon of fuel through this engine.

    I'm running Morgan's 15% Omega. I've checked out Flitetlinesolutions, used their tips and still the same problems.

    Anyways, I'm out of ideas.... I'd like to get this engine working, but if I loose one more plane to a dead stick it's going in the garbage.

    Thanks.

    -----------


    Ditto, don't throw it away.

    Get some castor oil and add several ounces to your fuel. Duke's engines need castor oil. Omega only has a smidgeon of castor oil, which is not enough for a Fox engine. This is for real, not a joke.

    Another thing is not to load this engine down with too much prop. A 9x4 to 9x5 is perfect. I'd lean toward the 9x4. Duke's own words into my ears via telephone was that his engines need to turn up for the carbs and porting/timing to work properly.

    I would check your model's fuel tank and ensure that it is not touching any of the wood parts of your model. Fuel foaming will cause exactly the same symptoms that you have described. I have a feeling that if you isolate your fuel tank with "loose" foam rubber (this means no fuel tank neck through the firewall), even if you have to reduce the fuel tank size to accomodate the foam, you will solve your problems.

    The Fox .19BB and .25BB are honking engines and should be ran that way.


    Ed Cregger
    \"Practice makes prefect\"

    Saito Club Member #52

  3. #178
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    RE: Club FOX!

    I had a Fox with one of those carbs with the fuel nipple as the low speed adjustment. Weird. I think it was on a .25.

    My trainer had a .15 plain bearing Fox that I got from AHC out of NYC (remember them?) that ran and ran and ran. Out of the box, I couldn't get the Fox carb to work well, so I made an adapter and put an OS carb on it. Started easy, idled beautifully, wonderful motor. Sold it with the plane.

    I have late model ringed .45. Strong, heavy, honking engine. Starts easy, idles beautifully, wonderful motor. It also has a home made adapter with an OS carb on it. It's worn out, I found a replacement engine, and will be swapping it out and putting the OS carb on it.

    SO, why not just buy an OS engine instead and save all the work? Well, experimentation is fun, and I already bought the engines...

  4. #179
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    RE: Club FOX!


    ORIGINAL: Fwoosh
    SO, why not just buy an OS engine instead and save all the work? Well, experimentation is fun, and I already bought the engines...
    Exactly! It's rewarding to get these old quirky things running. BTW, my Fox .15 runs and transitions just fine.

    David

  5. #180

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    RE: Club FOX!


    ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger


    ORIGINAL: MScooling

    Hello All,

    I have a Fox 15BB R/C I'm having problems with. I have the engine tuned great when on the ground, but once in flight it will almost always die. It sounds like it leans out, looses power, then quits. The cylinder head is smoking hot once I manage to land it. No matter how rich I run it on the ground, it leans out in flight and quits. So far I have lost 2 Lanier Shrikes due to this engine.

    I understand you cannot tune it like an O.S./Japanese engine. The instruction manual calls for 3.5 turns on the high speed and 1 turn on the low speed. At one turn on the low speed, it will not even start. I need at least 3 turns to get it running reliably on the ground.

    I have cleaned out the carb (MKX), needles look brand new, compression is good, muffler is tight, fuel tank is level with the carb (even tried different fuel tanks and fuel lines). Break-in was done according to the manual, and there's at least a gallon of fuel through this engine.

    I'm running Morgan's 15% Omega. I've checked out Flitetlinesolutions, used their tips and still the same problems.

    Anyways, I'm out of ideas.... I'd like to get this engine working, but if I loose one more plane to a dead stick it's going in the garbage.

    Thanks.

    -----------


    Ditto, don't throw it away.

    Get some castor oil and add several ounces to your fuel. Duke's engines need castor oil. Omega only has a smidgeon of castor oil, which is not enough for a Fox engine. This is for real, not a joke.

    Another thing is not to load this engine down with too much prop. A 9x4 to 9x5 is perfect. I'd lean toward the 9x4. Duke's own words into my ears via telephone was that his engines need to turn up for the carbs and porting/timing to work properly.

    I would check your model's fuel tank and ensure that it is not touching any of the wood parts of your model. Fuel foaming will cause exactly the same symptoms that you have described. I have a feeling that if you isolate your fuel tank with "loose" foam rubber (this means no fuel tank neck through the firewall), even if you have to reduce the fuel tank size to accomodate the foam, you will solve your problems.

    The Fox .19BB and .25BB are honking engines and should be ran that way.


    Ed Cregger

    Ed,
    you never want to use a 9 inch prop on a Fox of any stripe, 15 rocket, 15X or the BB version. When Duke said they like to rev thats what he meant. A 9 inch is what you use on a 25. A 7/6 and no more then an 8/4 are the recommended prop sizes for the plain bearing Foxes. I also neer over propped the 15BB, it will give you a real ride when properly loaded.
    dennis

  6. #181

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    RE: Club FOX!

    I was referring to using a 9x4 on the Fox .25BB engine. I seldom run anything larger than a 7x6 on any .15 sized engine. Usually a 7x4.


    Ed Cregger
    \"Practice makes prefect\"

    Saito Club Member #52

  7. #182

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    RE: Club FOX!

    Don't know what the problem might have been with the old Eagle. I'm sure it wasn't yer fault. The 3 that I have had since new have never given me a problem. Break-in was never even considered. They were mounted, started, and flown. One in a Sig Superchimunk which got shot down and bent the crank, another in the next Chipmunk, and 1 in a BUSA Phaeton. All of which still run fine and are easy to tune. Dukes Fuel was always used in thease engines. (20%castror/10% nitro/12x6 TF supermaple)
    \"If ya think that was somethin, hold my beer and watch this!\"

  8. #183
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    RE: Club FOX!

    I have just aquired a Fox 25 that is brand new but no box or papers . It is a control line engine. Can I get a throttle carb for it and use it on my RC planes? I just love this little engine and the fact that it says "Made in USA makes me very happy. Thanks.
    Club Saito # 677-Team Boca Bearings-Star Collectibles Muscatine-Glowhead Brotherhood #19

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    RE: Club FOX!

    You can buy one direct from Fox at:

    http://www.foxmanufacturing.com/

    The current price for the carb looks to be about $32.00. The .25s I've had seem to do around 14800 RPMs on 10% fuel, idle about 2100 on a 9-5 prop. Usually start in one or two flips by hand after break-in. I usually add 3 or 4 ounces of Baker's AA castor to a gallon of fuel just for insurance. Never wore one out, broke two through vertcal landings on hard surfaces. Still have one RC and one CL left. Even the Fox detractors in my club speak well of this engine.

  10. #185

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    RE: Club FOX!


    ORIGINAL: quepasa

    Don't know what the problem might have been with the old Eagle. I'm sure it wasn't yer fault. The 3 that I have had since new have never given me a problem. Break-in was never even considered. They were mounted, started, and flown. One in a Sig Superchimunk which got shot down and bent the crank, another in the next Chipmunk, and 1 in a BUSA Phaeton. All of which still run fine and are easy to tune. Dukes Fuel was always used in thease engines. (20%castror/10% nitro/12x6 TF supermaple)

    ------------------


    IIRC, I bought my Eagle .60 in late 78 or early 79, well before the CNC revolution took place. I spoke with Duke several times about it during its break-in and he assured me to keep plodding along and to use castor based fuel. I am really fussy about how an engine runs before putting it on a model, so that could have been part of it. Plus, the Eagle .60 in its original form was set up to run on Missile Mist 25% nitro fuel. I was using club fuel (Red Max 10% nitro, or maybe 5% nitro - can't remember) with just a smidgeon of castor oil. I was breaking all of the rules. But it did turn out to be a terrific engine in the end and I flew the dickens out of it for many years.

    I now have collected seven or eight old baffle piston Eagle .60 engines, so it will be fun seeing how they compare to my original engine. Sport Pilot mentioned in another post, after I described how my Eagle was, that none of the ones he flew behaved like mine. I too wonder what could have been all that different. I know who I sold it to after a crash and a rebuild by Fox. I should call see if he still has it and wants to part with it. Then again, lots of parts had to be replaced after the crash so it may not behave the same anyway.


    Ed Cregger
    \"Practice makes prefect\"

    Saito Club Member #52

  11. #186

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    RE: Club FOX!

    Good evening gentlemen. I currently own and fly two fox 40s,two fox 45s, one bb one sleve, two fox50s and one fox74. started with fox35 cl in the old days of 1950s never could get my 36x to run properly. otherwise my current foxes have been flying since 1992. still running with only one bearing replacement on the 50. Maybe to much float frying in salt water. not too much fresh water on the west coast of fl.THe fox 50 loves a heavy 12x5 prop in an ace seamaster. remember , keep the wheels down during landings. froghair1.
    froghair1 waco brotherhood #127 if it aint broke, dont fix it

  12. #187
    jeffie8696's Avatar
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    RE: Club FOX!

    Awesome. Thanks for the help. The carb is a bit pricey, perhaps someone here has a spare?
    Club Saito # 677-Team Boca Bearings-Star Collectibles Muscatine-Glowhead Brotherhood #19

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    RE: Club FOX!

    i have recently put together a old Thorpe Engineering Corporation Star Hawk plane kit which called for a rear exhaust type engine. the plane needs a setup with a engine with a tuned pipe that gets mounted and goes thru the fuselage and comes out on top(help me post some pics of this plane if you can.) the deal came with an origional in the box fox 60 eagle III rear exhaust with the header in the box. since i collect fox engines i decieded to save that motor and use a fox eagle IV ABC tuned pipe special engine (part number 26800) instead. i had one ready with the head turned to the rear and ran it for many tanks on a test stand using a APC 11-7 prop and SIG 25% nitro 20% oil half syn and half castor fuel. it ran very well on the stand. i gotta tell you setting up this plane was a bit of work. the control push rods that came with it were poorly designed at best. the elevator was set up with a forked rod for the separated elevator and that had so much flex it wasnt going to work. changed it to separate pushrods for each half of the elevator. changed the rudder to a pull pull. had(and i mean had) to change the ailerons which were on a one servo setup in the center of the wing to separate servos in each side of the wing. the first time this plane flew with the factory setup it had so much flutter it just about didnt make it. and of course,,the fox engine died in flight and it had to make a deadstick landing. but anyways, i got it all fixed, have got the engine tuned correctly for the conditions its gonna be it now and am just looking for the right time to get a chance to try again. what i was really wanting to say was this engine just screams in the air,,,,,,the plane is a bit iffy

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    RE: Club FOX!

    Other than my original Fox Eagle .60 (baffle piston) engine, all of my Fox engines have been screamers, once broken-in. I love the expressions on the other guys faces when I fired up my Fox .19BB on my combat R/C flying wing. That thing revved so high it was spooky. Once broken-in, no deadsticks, no hesitation in throttling and no long start up procedures. That was a heck of an engine and it was capable of stomping the juice out of an expensive OS .28FSR on the same model. Wish I had held on to it now.

    Ed Cregger
    \"Practice makes prefect\"

    Saito Club Member #52

  15. #190

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    RE: Club FOX!

    Sure would be nice if Fox would re-introduce their .19 BB and the .50. I have one of each.

    I got asked to help a club member set up a .50 some years ago, after one of the ST lovers gave up on it. The old TN carb. Set it up while running by richening the high speed needle, setting the idle to a slightly rich about 2000 rpm with a tach, then adjusting the high end to a reasonable something like 13600. Got a surprise when I found out he was turning an 11-7 Top Flite. The following summer, when he returned from wintering in Florida, that engine was turning the same prop at 14200. Somebody there had re-tuned the engine after about a 30 flight break-in. Also, he was using 15% nitro, 22% oil, about a 50-50 castor/synthetic mix. He loved showing his tach readings to detractors.

  16. #191
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    RE: Club FOX!

    OK I just obtained a new in package Fox .25 carb but it is not for this particular engine. It has the conventional round mounting like an OS. Is there an adapter to use this carb on my .25? I couldn't beat the price! Even if I have to Make an adapter for it. Maybe I can trade for the right one????? Thanks everybody.
    Club Saito # 677-Team Boca Bearings-Star Collectibles Muscatine-Glowhead Brotherhood #19

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    RE: Club FOX!

    Sounds like one of the after market carbs somebody made years ago to convert CL engines into RC engines by slipping the carb into the CL venturi and securing it with screws through the needle valve holes. The only Fox .19 or .25, baffle or Schnuerle I had that didn't have a flange mount carb was one I bought about 1963 that just had a pivoting restrictor flap over the exhaust stack. Might have to make an adaptor. It would probably be a good idea to aply silicon sealer to the junction whichever way you do it. The only adaptor I remember Fox making was one to allow the use of a Perry or similar carb on their larger 45-50 engines.

    Anybody have any info or experience with the Fox .07 rc? I just obtained one yesterday, and am interested in possibly using it. Only problem I can see is that the idle stop screw lug on the throtle arm is broken off. I seem to remember a PGF Chinn review in MAN when it first came out that may have rated it about the power of a Cox reedy .049, but I'm not sure about that.

  18. #193
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    RE: Club FOX!

    This is what I picked up. It is in original Fox packaging.
    FOX PART NUMBER 22605 19BB AND FOX 25BB
    Club Saito # 677-Team Boca Bearings-Star Collectibles Muscatine-Glowhead Brotherhood #19

  19. #194

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    RE: Club FOX!


    ORIGINAL: jeffie8696

    This is what I picked up. It is in original Fox packaging.
    FOX PART NUMBER 22605 19BB AND FOX 25BB
    Jeffie, the Fox web page shows carburator model 2200 for the 25BB. It has the flange type mounting.

    I don't have a 25, but my 15 has a round mounting which in turn fits into a flange adaptor on the crankcase.

    Perhaps you could give the folks at Fox a call?

    jess

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    RE: Club FOX!


    ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger

    Other than my original Fox Eagle .60 (baffle piston) engine, all of my Fox engines have been screamers, once broken-in. I love the expressions on the other guys faces when I fired up my Fox .19BB on my combat R/C flying wing. That thing revved so high it was spooky. Once broken-in, no deadsticks, no hesitation in throttling and no long start up procedures. That was a heck of an engine and it was capable of stomping the juice out of an expensive OS .28FSR on the same model. Wish I had held on to it now.

    Ed Cregger
    Ed, I recently got a 15BB that sure matches the "Screamer" description. It was evidently un run but of older manufacture. The muffler is less streamlined than curent versions and has no pressure fitting.

    I have always enjoyed my older OS 15s for their user friendly nature, but this Fox, after no more than a quart of fuel has a wonderfuly smooth low idle, instant transition and FAR more power. I have rin it on 15% nitro, 20% syn/castor blend.

    Out if curiosity I swapped the originsl short idle bar plug for a short non-idle bar plug and could discern no difference.

    jess

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    RE: Club FOX!

    It's always amazed me how many people claim an OS or some other engine of a similar size as a Fox turning a given prop as much as 2500 RPM less than the Fox HAS to be putting out more power. No matter what fuel, brand of engine, or whatever, the engine turning a given size prop at the highest RPM is putting out the highest power. No ifs, ands, or buts!

    Actually, my newest ST .45 turns an APC 10-6 200 RPM faster than one of my almost 30 year old Fox .45s. So naturally, it has a bit more HP, but in 12 flights, it has lost head screws, almost lost the head, almost lost a muffler in flight, almost lost a carb in flight, and has had the backplate screw loosen up twice.

  22. #197
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    RE: Club FOX!

    Based on my experience with racing engines I have to say that not all engines make power the same. Perhaps the ports of one engine have more capacity and are capable of more power at high rpm. Or perhaps the carb has a higher flow, but if an engine doesn"t make high rpm power it may still be making as much or more power at lower rpms depending on a multitude of factors.
    Club Saito # 677-Team Boca Bearings-Star Collectibles Muscatine-Glowhead Brotherhood #19

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    RE: Club FOX!


    ORIGINAL: jessiej


    ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger

    Other than my original Fox Eagle .60 (baffle piston) engine, all of my Fox engines have been screamers, once broken-in. I love the expressions on the other guys faces when I fired up my Fox .19BB on my combat R/C flying wing. That thing revved so high it was spooky. Once broken-in, no deadsticks, no hesitation in throttling and no long start up procedures. That was a heck of an engine and it was capable of stomping the juice out of an expensive OS .28FSR on the same model. Wish I had held on to it now.

    Ed Cregger
    Ed, I recently got a 15BB that sure matches the "Screamer" description. It was evidently un run but of older manufacture. The muffler is less streamlined than curent versions and has no pressure fitting.

    I have always enjoyed my older OS 15s for their user friendly nature, but this Fox, after no more than a quart of fuel has a wonderfuly smooth low idle, instant transition and FAR more power. I have rin it on 15% nitro, 20% syn/castor blend.

    Out if curiosity I swapped the originsl short idle bar plug for a short non-idle bar plug and could discern no difference.

    jess

    ----------------


    Sorry for the much larger than needed quote. The function where you can move the cursor over text while having the left button pushed to mark the text for deletion hasn't worked on RCU for months or longer. I have the same problem using two other computers in my house, so it isn't my computer set up. Can't remember the danged name for the function, but I sure wish they would restore it. <G>

    Yep, schneurle ported engines generally do not need idle bar plugs. The non idle bar plug "should" give you an exctra 200 rpm or so on top end.

    Ed Cregger
    \"Practice makes prefect\"

    Saito Club Member #52

  24. #199
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    RE: Club FOX!

    Got the new carb today. WOW[X(] Nobody told me how sophisticated this bad boy is. It has not only a rotating barrel but it slides so that the main jet (that has the main needle in it) will open up and enrichen the fuel mixture. I have seen similar systems on automotive carbs but not on RC carbs. I admit my experience is limited to OS products. Can't wait to see how my .25 runs on it. Now all I need is to fabricate a mount for it. Way to go FOX[sm=thumbs_up.gif]
    Club Saito # 677-Team Boca Bearings-Star Collectibles Muscatine-Glowhead Brotherhood #19

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    RE: Club FOX!

    Jeffi, probably the most practical method for most of us to compare the power output of model engines, without access to a good dynomometer or torque table, is to see how each engine spins a similar load, ie the same size prop. While there are formulae which allow a one to calculate close approximation from the RPM measurement, a direct rpm measurement of rpm with a given prop is probably the best and simplest method to compare model engines head-to-head. In essence, with a given prop, the engine that turns the highest measured prop rpm is developing the most HP. By changing the prop in such a comparison, the results of the comparison may change. For an example when MAN had a shoot-off between most of the sport .60s on the market, with smaller props, such as 10-8, 11-5 and such, brand R measured the highest RPMs, with a brand F measuring something like 3rd. With the more normal 11-7/11-8 range, brand R was still 1st with brand F a very close 2nd. With larger props, like 12-6 and even 14-4, the brand F was now in 1st, while brand R was in something like 4th place. Different porting for different applications. In a similar manner, there was a report on a custom .60 that had as it's only purpose control line speed. On a test dynamometer bench, it measured almost 6 hp turning a special racing 10-9 prop at something over 24000 rpm.

    This prop and engine combo may not be able to get a 7 or 8 pound pattern style plane or a draggy WW1 scale bipe off a grass field, let alone fly a decent pattern. And there would undoubtedly be no way to get it down to anything close to a decent idle. By the same token, a non-racing .60 turning an 11-8 in the 13 to 16000 rpm range would be able to put up a very presentable performance off almost any kind of surface. But the slower engine wouldn't turn a class D control line speed engine in the 200 mph range on 65' lines, either.

    To me, most of the engine advertisements that say an engine turns a practical rpm range of say 2000 to 15000 and can put out 1.5 hp isn't saying anything of any use to me.

    I have a 20+ year old Fox .45 that turns a 10-6 APC at 14500. My much new ST .45, using the same fuel, turns a similar APC 10-6 at 14750. Does the ST have more power than the Fox? About 1.7% more, at least on the day I compared them. A number of people at the field think that because of the difference in sound, the power is much greater than that. Am I going to throw out my Fox .45s and replace them with ST .45s? Heck no!


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