Webra Speed 50
03-03-2006, 05:32 PM
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Webra Speed 50
I have a new Webra Speed 50 engine. I have run about 6 to 8 tanks of fuel thru it and I have never got it to run correctly. All of the fuel lines are new. The engine has alway started easy but has poor transition from idle to high speed. It will sit and idle perfect. I can run it up to full throttle, adjust the high end mixture to rich and then back off to optimum then richen it a click or two. When i reduce to about 1/2 throttle, the engine will slow down and die. If I get it down to just above idle before it dies it will keep running. I have set, reset and reset again both the low end and high end needles. Yesterday I took the carb off and completely disassembled it, I found no dirt, O rings are soft and good, no nicks, all of the orifices are clean. Today I went out to the field, the engine started easy. I let it warm up, ran it up to full throttle, reset the high end needle and it seemed to be running pretty good so I took off, got about 40' high made a right turn, reduced to about 1/2 throttle, the engine died. I did this 4 times after making minute adjustments between flights. Another member came out to the field and he tried to adjust the high end to no avail. We tried several settings with the aircraft on the ground and never could get it to run correctly. Thinking this might be a fuel pressure problem, I was going to switch mufflers to an OS muffler but the bolt center distances are not the same. I took out the exhaust nipple from the muffler stem, filed an angle on it, thinking maybe the exhaust crossing the end of the nipple may be having a venturi effect causing a sucking action instead of pressurizing the fuel tank. I intend to try the engine tomorrow to see if this helps. Any Ideas?
03-03-2006, 06:28 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
ORIGINAL: Vern326
I have a new Webra Speed 50 engine. I have run about 6 to 8 tanks of fuel thru it and I have never got it to run correctly. All of the fuel lines are new. The engine has alway started easy but has poor transition from idle to high speed. It will sit and idle perfect. I can run it up to full throttle, adjust the high end mixture to rich and then back off to optimum then richen it a click or two. When i reduce to about 1/2 throttle, the engine will slow down and die. If I get it down to just above idle before it dies it will keep running. I have set, reset and reset again both the low end and high end needles. Yesterday I took the carb off and completely disassembled it, I found no dirt, O rings are soft and good, no nicks, all of the orifices are clean. Today I went out to the field, the engine started easy. I let it warm up, ran it up to full throttle, reset the high end needle and it seemed to be running pretty good so I took off, got about 40' high made a right turn, reduced to about 1/2 throttle, the engine died. I did this 4 times after making minute adjustments between flights. Another member came out to the field and he tried to adjust the high end to no avail. We tried several settings with the aircraft on the ground and never could get it to run correctly. Thinking this might be a fuel pressure problem, I was going to switch mufflers to an OS muffler but the bolt center distances are not the same. I took out the exhaust nipple from the muffler stem, filed an angle on it, thinking maybe the exhaust crossing the end of the nipple may be having a venturi effect causing a sucking action instead of pressurizing the fuel tank. I intend to try the engine tomorrow to see if this helps. Any Ideas?
I have a new Webra Speed 50 engine. I have run about 6 to 8 tanks of fuel thru it and I have never got it to run correctly. All of the fuel lines are new. The engine has alway started easy but has poor transition from idle to high speed. It will sit and idle perfect. I can run it up to full throttle, adjust the high end mixture to rich and then back off to optimum then richen it a click or two. When i reduce to about 1/2 throttle, the engine will slow down and die. If I get it down to just above idle before it dies it will keep running. I have set, reset and reset again both the low end and high end needles. Yesterday I took the carb off and completely disassembled it, I found no dirt, O rings are soft and good, no nicks, all of the orifices are clean. Today I went out to the field, the engine started easy. I let it warm up, ran it up to full throttle, reset the high end needle and it seemed to be running pretty good so I took off, got about 40' high made a right turn, reduced to about 1/2 throttle, the engine died. I did this 4 times after making minute adjustments between flights. Another member came out to the field and he tried to adjust the high end to no avail. We tried several settings with the aircraft on the ground and never could get it to run correctly. Thinking this might be a fuel pressure problem, I was going to switch mufflers to an OS muffler but the bolt center distances are not the same. I took out the exhaust nipple from the muffler stem, filed an angle on it, thinking maybe the exhaust crossing the end of the nipple may be having a venturi effect causing a sucking action instead of pressurizing the fuel tank. I intend to try the engine tomorrow to see if this helps. Any Ideas?
---------------------
You haven't mentioned which fuel, glow plug or prop you are using. These can provide important clues.
03-04-2006, 03:01 AM
#3
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RE: Webra Speed 50
Vern,
How did you perform the break-in?
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Tapered%2DBore_Engine_Break%2Din_%2D_Upgraded/m_1850473/tm.htm]This thread[/link] illustrates the right way. I know of one such engine that received too rich a break-in, which resulted in the sleeve peeling its nickel.
How did you perform the break-in?
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Tapered%2DBore_Engine_Break%2Din_%2D_Upgraded/m_1850473/tm.htm]This thread[/link] illustrates the right way. I know of one such engine that received too rich a break-in, which resulted in the sleeve peeling its nickel.
03-04-2006, 10:17 AM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
I have a APC 11x5 prop on the engine. A OS A3 glow plug and useing Morgan Cool Power 10% for fuel. I broke the engine in on a test stand with the above fuel and no added oil, not overly rich as to 4 cycle but as rich as I could with out 4 cycling. I did this by intermittantly running at 1/2 throttle, full throttle, idle. Shut off, cool engine and repeating until I had run 2 tanks of fuel thru it or approximately 24 oz. I just checked the engine by taking the glow plug out and I can feel the tightness at the top of the stroke. I had the muffler off yesterday and I do not see any evidence of scoring thru the exhaust port. The engine has very good compression with the glow plug in. I have tried several different glow plugs including a Fox with idle bar. Everything I have done has not seemed to help very much. Also I might mention the temperature outside yesterday was 40 degrees and the humidity about 30 %. I did run and fly this airplane last fall when the temperature was at least 70 degrees with pretty much the same problems. I have had several guys at the field try to adjust the carb, change & glow plugs all to no avail.
03-04-2006, 10:48 AM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
Vern,
The glow-plug you are using is too hot!. It is in fact the hottest one OS has.
Your engine should be using a medium heat range glow plug, like the OS #8, Enya #4, K&B-1L, MVVS/Novarossi C6 and similar.
A hot glow-plug would force you to use too rich a mixture on the high-speed needle, which make the mid-range too rich.
In your engine, the A3 should only be used for ground break-in and never be used for flight.
Your engine could be run with fuel containing synthetic oil, but not one of the American made fuels...
Webra specifies Sachs Aerosynth II/III/Aerosave as the normal use synthetic. You can also use Castor oil.
Break-in must be performed with 'break-in synthetic oil', or Castor oil, in accordance with the technique in the thread.
CoolPower used to contain Klotz Techniplate, but now contains another synthetic oil, which you must check with Webra (by phone to Austria) if it is good for your engine. I don't think they would recommend it.
Synthetic oils are not all the same!
The prop you are using is about the largest I would recommends for this engine.
A Bolly 11.5x5 would clearly overload this engine, forcing it into a lower RPM regime.
The glow-plug you are using is too hot!. It is in fact the hottest one OS has.
Your engine should be using a medium heat range glow plug, like the OS #8, Enya #4, K&B-1L, MVVS/Novarossi C6 and similar.
A hot glow-plug would force you to use too rich a mixture on the high-speed needle, which make the mid-range too rich.
In your engine, the A3 should only be used for ground break-in and never be used for flight.
Your engine could be run with fuel containing synthetic oil, but not one of the American made fuels...
Webra specifies Sachs Aerosynth II/III/Aerosave as the normal use synthetic. You can also use Castor oil.
Break-in must be performed with 'break-in synthetic oil', or Castor oil, in accordance with the technique in the thread.
CoolPower used to contain Klotz Techniplate, but now contains another synthetic oil, which you must check with Webra (by phone to Austria) if it is good for your engine. I don't think they would recommend it.
Synthetic oils are not all the same!
The prop you are using is about the largest I would recommends for this engine.
A Bolly 11.5x5 would clearly overload this engine, forcing it into a lower RPM regime.
03-04-2006, 11:20 AM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
Ok I just went thru my glow plugs and found an OS 8 and an Enya #4. I put the OS 8 in the engine but haven't tried it yet. Outside temperature is 38 degrees. As soon as it warms up a bit more I will take the aircraft out in the back yard and try it.
03-04-2006, 12:34 PM
#8
RE: Webra Speed 50
Sounds like a rich mid range problem. The idle could also be rich. The cooler plug may help. Also check tank height. A tank that is too high may cause a rich mid range. If anything you may need less muffler pressure, not more.
03-04-2006, 12:40 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
Its 11:30 AM here in central Illnois and I just came in from the back yard where the temp is 42 degrees. The Webra started just fine with the OS 8 glow plug. Still same old problems Idle good, sputter on transitation, full throttle seemed rich. Leaned it out a few clicks also leanded out the low speed needle about 1/4 turn. Started and stopped the engine a few times always starts easy. Still had the problem coming from full to 1/2 throttle, the engine would slow down and die. It wouln't die if I came from 1/2 to idle. Made a few more minute adjustments on both high and low speed needles and it seems to be running the best I have ever had it. It still sputters a bit after about 30 seconds of idle time and then give it full throttle. If I run it up to full throttle and back to 1/2 throttle now at least it don't die. I run about 12 oz of fuel thru it makeing all of these adjustments. I got the plane on charge now and I think I will go out to the field this afternoon and see what it does. Oh well I am getting a lot of practice on dead stick landings. Thanks for your help.
03-04-2006, 12:51 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
Vern you are typical with 1/4 turn low speed adjustment. 1/8 turn is plenty. Turning to much would get you past ideal and right on to oppisite. Get it down to an idle and pinch fuel line and tell us if the engine died instantly or RPM went up a few hundred .
03-04-2006, 12:57 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
OK Speedster. I will do the pinch bit while I am at the field. I did not adjust low end needle 1/4 turn all at one time. I usually make that adjustment 1/16 turn at a time.
03-04-2006, 12:58 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
The Fox RCLONG idle bar plug is about the same temp as OS#8 . After a 30 second idle and it sputters a little too full throttle lean out low speed about 2 clicks clockwise. Less than 1/8 turn. Your still not broke in so low speed needle will probably change later.
03-04-2006, 01:02 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
OK SportPilot. The top of the tank is about the centerline of the carb. Not much I could do about that as the aircraft is an ARF.
03-04-2006, 01:13 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
[quote][/quI broke the engine in on a test stand with the above fuel and no added oil, not overly rich as to 4 cycle but as rich as I could with out 4 cycling. I did this by intermittantly running at 1/2 throttle, full throttle, idle. Shut off, cool ote] Vern I see a problem with this breakin. Should be just rich of peak (couple clicks) run up hot, shut off ,cool ,run up hot (2 minutes max) shut down , cool for a few tanks. no idle and mid range runs.
03-04-2006, 04:44 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
OK Its 3:35 PM and the temp is 48 degrees. I just got back from the field. Assembled the plane,
fueled it up, did preflight check, started Webra, warmed up, seemed to be running pretty good. Took off and flew for about 6 minutes at several throttle speeds did some rolls and loops and actually made a powered landing! Fiddled around the field a bit, refueled, started Webra, took off climbed to about 40 feet made a right turn, cut throttle to 1/2 and the engine died. Made the 2nd right turn into the slight wind, barely made it back to the field and kind of plopped the plane in and broke off the landing gear. End of story. I have an OS 46 FX, thinking obout putting this engine on if it is not to much work. But I don't think the OS will have the power to take the plane unlimited vertical the way the Webra does. Any ideas to make the Webra run correctly is appreicated.
fueled it up, did preflight check, started Webra, warmed up, seemed to be running pretty good. Took off and flew for about 6 minutes at several throttle speeds did some rolls and loops and actually made a powered landing! Fiddled around the field a bit, refueled, started Webra, took off climbed to about 40 feet made a right turn, cut throttle to 1/2 and the engine died. Made the 2nd right turn into the slight wind, barely made it back to the field and kind of plopped the plane in and broke off the landing gear. End of story. I have an OS 46 FX, thinking obout putting this engine on if it is not to much work. But I don't think the OS will have the power to take the plane unlimited vertical the way the Webra does. Any ideas to make the Webra run correctly is appreicated.
03-04-2006, 04:59 PM
#17
RE: Webra Speed 50
Vern, I've noticed the low speed needle is a lot more sensitive on my Webra .50 than my O.S. .46FX. A little bit of a turn can make a difference. As far as power, the Webra may be a little more powerful than a .46, but not much.
03-04-2006, 06:04 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
OK I am running the muffler that came with the engine. I don't know how much pressure it is actually putting into the tank. With this thought in mind is why I put an angle on the exhaust nipple. I thought the exhaust going across the end of the nipple may be causing a venturi effect and therefore a suction. This angle did not help or hurt the way the engine runs.
03-04-2006, 06:39 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
ORIGINAL: Vern326
OK I am running the muffler that came with the engine. I don't know how much pressure it is actually putting into the tank. With this thought in mind is why I put an angle on the exhaust nipple. I thought the exhaust going across the end of the nipple may be causing a venturi effect and therefore a suction. This angle did not help or hurt the way the engine runs.
OK I am running the muffler that came with the engine. I don't know how much pressure it is actually putting into the tank. With this thought in mind is why I put an angle on the exhaust nipple. I thought the exhaust going across the end of the nipple may be causing a venturi effect and therefore a suction. This angle did not help or hurt the way the engine runs.
----------------
Every once in a while, an engine gets out of the factory that is just a tad tighter than it should be. It still falls within the normal range, QC wise, but it will end up needing a little more running time in order to break-in. I suspect this is what is happening, Vern.
I bench run my engines and have for a long time, but every once in a while I used to get too antsy to run them in on the bench. I then saw a friend's test bench/break-in model fly some years ago. It was a Bridi Trainer 60, but it was heavily modified, just for testing new radios and breaking-in engines. I copied his ideas down to the T. Not only did it give me a fun model to fly, but it was very useful. After I flew the model for over half a decade, the friend that I copied my model from bought it from me. He campaigned it in many fun flies up and down the East Coast.
Since Bridi Trainer 60 and 40 models aren't available today, we won't talk about using one of them, but the Ultra/Ugly Stick models are perfect substitutes. When the engine quits on one of those prematurely, being a trainer type of model, the results aren't nearly as catastrophic as someone flying/hovering a 3D model close to the ground, if you know what I mean, Vern? <G>
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Anyway keep us informed about how the engine progresses. Should you decide it is not for you, let us know when you list it for sale on RCU. Some of us like taming broncos.
03-04-2006, 06:43 PM
#20
RE: Webra Speed 50
Is this a new old Webra 50 with the TN carb or the newer 50 GT which is not ringed and has the TNII carb? The TNII carb does not have clicks on the low speed needle.
03-05-2006, 12:12 AM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
Sounds like too much nitro or too hot of a glow plug or it needs a head shim installed or a combination of the above.
try some 5% fuel first and see if that makes it run a bit better. When going down in nitro, you will likely be leaning the needle valves a little.
Here's what I've found to be good combos in Webra 50's: low nitro (0% to 5%) and hot plug, or 10% nitro and a cold plug, or 10% nitro and a medium or cold plug with a head shim.
try some 5% fuel first and see if that makes it run a bit better. When going down in nitro, you will likely be leaning the needle valves a little.
Here's what I've found to be good combos in Webra 50's: low nitro (0% to 5%) and hot plug, or 10% nitro and a cold plug, or 10% nitro and a medium or cold plug with a head shim.
03-05-2006, 04:06 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
OK Mr Motor, It must be a NEW old 50 because it is not ringed and it does not have clicks on the low end needle. I got it from a friend who quit flying and I don't know how long he had it. It still had the cosmoline on it in the box. No documents though. I also got a Webra Speed 120 that was brand new in the box but I sold it.
OK FuelMan, I run 10% in all of my other engines and I hate to run a different fuel in just one of my aircraft. I think I will try a colder plug. This may work because I started with an OS A3, changed to an OS A8 and it did seem to run better. What plug is colder than an A8?
OK Ed Cregger, I am flying the Webra in a ARF so I don't have a lot of expense in the model. I to don't like to give up on a challenge. I got half the guys in the Club and all of you good folks trying to help me also. Snowed this morning, good for skis, but the wind is up so won't be flying today.
OK FuelMan, I run 10% in all of my other engines and I hate to run a different fuel in just one of my aircraft. I think I will try a colder plug. This may work because I started with an OS A3, changed to an OS A8 and it did seem to run better. What plug is colder than an A8?
OK Ed Cregger, I am flying the Webra in a ARF so I don't have a lot of expense in the model. I to don't like to give up on a challenge. I got half the guys in the Club and all of you good folks trying to help me also. Snowed this morning, good for skis, but the wind is up so won't be flying today.
03-05-2006, 04:13 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
My Webra 50 began acting like yours due to poor compression, the engine would have good compression cold but when the engine warmed up most of the compression went away. Check the compression on your engine after the engine has been ran.
03-05-2006, 06:06 PM
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RE: Webra Speed 50
OK Huey-Pilot & Tim C, I think my next step will be try a colder plug, OS A5 and 10% nitro. The compression is good hot or cold. I got all of the pieces cut to replace the landing gear frame structure. I will glue tomorrow. Maybe mid week the weather will be good enough to try it again.