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Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w (finally solved)

Old 07-29-2006, 01:51 AM
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akschu
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Default Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w (finally solved)

Okay,

Got my cline regulator installed tonight and did some tuning. Currently I'm running the needle out 3/4 of a turn and the mixture out 2.5 turns from closed with the barrel closed. The engine seems to idle lean and it makes the dull brrrrr sound instead of your typical 2 stroke idle with the periodic misses. When I go to full throttle it jumps up instantly, and starts to build rpms pretty fast until it gets to about 1000 rpm shy of max then hesitates though that last little bit. I was thinking I my have too much timing with an OS 8 plug and 15% fuel so I tried the cold F plug just for kicks but it didn't seem to make any difference.

Here is the setup:

15% omega
APC 18x6w
cline regulator
bisson pitts muffler with tapperd ends cut off.

The engine ran well and peaked at 9150 rpm so this combo works, just need to work out that last little bit of transition.

Anyone else with a similar setup care to post their setup so I can compare notes?

Thanks,
schu
Old 07-29-2006, 02:50 AM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

G'day Mate,
Why did you cut the ends off the muffler tubes, sounds like your idle is a bit lean, try the pinch test at idle, it should increase revs very slightly, before dropping revs, if it just dies it is too lean, go back to an OS8 plug & try an APC 18x8. 18X6 may be a bit underpropped.
I run a 160FX with an OS8 plug 10% nitro, & bisson pitts muffler, as supplied, no pump or regulator & swing a 16X10 APC, pulls my 12lb Katana, vertical from take off, & no hesitation.
Old 07-29-2006, 09:15 AM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w


ORIGINAL: akschu

Okay,

Got my cline regulator installed tonight and did some tuning. Currently I'm running the needle out 3/4 of a turn and the mixture out 2.5 turns from closed with the barrel closed. The engine seems to idle lean and it makes the dull brrrrr sound instead of your typical 2 stroke idle with the periodic misses. When I go to full throttle it jumps up instantly, and starts to build rpms pretty fast until it gets to about 1000 rpm shy of max then hesitates though that last little bit. I was thinking I my have too much timing with an OS 8 plug and 15% fuel so I tried the cold F plug just for kicks but it didn't seem to make any difference.

Here is the setup:

15% omega
APC 18x6w
cline regulator
bisson pitts muffler with tapperd ends cut off.

The engine ran well and peaked at 9150 rpm so this combo works, just need to work out that last little bit of transition.

Anyone else with a similar setup care to post their setup so I can compare notes?

Thanks,
schu
Do you mean you tried the colder A5 plug? The F one is hot.

Are you willing to try another prop? I like a good wood 18x6 like Skorepa or BME ect. I think with a heavy prop like the APC18x6W you my find a slight drop in transition on the OS160FX after 8,000 as I think you are getting over the torque peak? [&:] How long does it take to get that last 1000?

Sometimes when my high end is too rich I find that the last 300 or so rpm's take a while to get, but not the last 1000?

Make sure you test your settings by trying to simulate the throttle as if you were flying.




Old 07-29-2006, 11:15 AM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

I'll play with it more today, perhaps take a video so you guys can see what I see.

As far as the pinch test, that is hard to do since I only have 1" of fuel tubing between the regulator and the carb. This isn't a show stopper though, you hear what a 2 stroke is doing.

Also, I thought the F plug was cold since that is what OS says it is on the chart:



Though it does make a ton of sense for it to be hot since your only heating it every other stroke.

Hopefully I'll have some video for you guys in a couple of hours.
Old 07-29-2006, 12:28 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

I completely agree with the guys that say you're slightly underpropping that engine... get the RPM mid 8000 ish. Anything more is just a wast of time.
The 18x6 is to small, I don't know the wide blade verion but on average a "w" is worth an inch so you're looking at a 18x7 which again, looking at your RPM figures is a little to small A 16x10-18x8 would be better.There are a group of guys out there that believe this engine should be reving like a small 2 stroke. As I said, they're out there , way out there. Don't listen to them.

Next, you need at least 1 extra head shim with that engine, some use two, have you got that? Get it.
Next, F type plug perod. Your fuel is OK.
The muffler is crap but there isn't anything you can do about that.
The one way valve that comes with a Cline isn't the best, when you get the chance change it for a YS one.
A presurized tank really takes some action, most off the shelf hobby tanks just can't take it. One day again when you get a chance change it for a Tettra/MK or at least a Kavan with the metal ring around the neck. That way you want be looking for a radio compartment soaked in a pint of glow fuel because the crappy tank split.

Remember also that you need to completely run in the engine (and I mean completely) before you should connect the cline or a pump for that matter. Unless you do this you'll end up looking like the other Turkey's here that are chasing an engine set-up, or is it a pump set up, or may be it's the engine, no it's the
pump... you get the picture. Run the engine in, set it up so it performs perfectly, than add the cline into the equation and notice what changes it's made and adjust accordingly.

And lastly, make sure that when to check for idle to full throttle transition, you roll the throttle stick from bottom to top... a "one and two" count. Thats the professional way.The Sunday hack just bangs open the stick like a total plonker. They even use the throttle that way when flying. Don't do that, it's a throttle, it's not an on/off switch. Apart from making them look like a complete amature, it's serves absolutely no real purpose and tells you nothing about the engine.
Every engines will occassionally cough and ****ter... that's the nature... what di we learn from that? When we roll the throttle we can hear what's happening from idle all the way to fully open. That way we can hear the rich or lean spots through out the transition and again adjust accordingly.

By the way, all the guy's I know operating that engine on the pattern circuit are using the simple, humble Perry.
If it ain't working with the Cline which it may well not, you know what to get.
Old 07-29-2006, 01:58 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

I couldn't get a decent video and I'm almost out of fuel, so I need to save what little I have left for flying my other planes today.

Anyway, here is where I'm at. I have decent transition with a hesitation at 7000 - 8000. If I go any leaner on the main needle the top end is way to lean, and if I go any leaner on the bottom end then it doesn't want to idle right. At this point thnks I have a mid range rich condition which as far as I know is a common problem with regulators. I don't hear any pinging and the engine makes all kinds of smoke at this rpm range so I'm not thinking it's a timing issue.

I'm willing to try other props, but I'm told the apc 18x6w and the menz 18x6 work best for 3d applications. In other birds I fly I use the apc W prop because I like the torque of the lower pitch, longer props. I think I may order a APC 18x8W and a menz 18x8, but I think a 16x10 is way faster than I want to go.

I'm up on getting a better tank, no problems there, the one way valve for cline seems to work fine, pleny of pressure, so why do I want a different one? Will it fail? The engine has at least 10 tanks though it before it has seen the regulator and ran fine last I had it on the bench, so I think I'm good there. The pitts muffler isn't the best, but I did cut it and it seems much better. The part I don't understand is the plug and shim recommendation. The shims reduce the compression ratio which effectivly reduces ignition timing, but then you put in a hot plug to get the timing back, the end result is lower compression. Any thoughts on why this works? Perhaps I should just use 10% nitro instead.

Thanks for all the help,
schu
Old 07-29-2006, 02:24 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w


ORIGINAL: akschu


Also, I thought the F plug was cold since that is what OS says it is on the chart:



Though it does make a ton of sense for it to be hot since your only heating it every other stroke.
Thought I had seen that the F was hot, but now I cannot see it anywhere? I apologize for what appears to by misinformation by me.[&:]

This is where I have seen heat ranges before:

http://www.os-engines.co.jp/english/...g/pluindex.htm

Old 07-29-2006, 02:25 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

I wouldn't waste the money on the 18x8w, try a standard 18x8.
The engine is just a hobby/sports engine thats works fine on 0-5%. Th fact that is so realiable & friendly has lead to it being used sucessfully on the F3A circuit.
Shimming is typical for several engines, OS 1.40RX for example. Thrust me, we're not talking loosing power here , thats not the plan it's just to soft the very top end which will be over hard because of the 15%. Try it they're so much smoother. The plug. The f type if just the alround pro plug.
15%- 1 shim- F plug. It's a great setup.
What I'm not sure about is the Cline on that engine.
Old 07-29-2006, 02:53 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

Listen, here's another thing, How have you placed the regulator?
Is it fixed to the body of the engine with a zip tie and a short pipe to the inlett nipple?
Floating free with a short pipe to the inlett nipple.
Attatched to the firewall with a long pipe to the nipple etc etc?
Believe me, I've seen them all used and working well, it all depends on the engine as it and the regulator placement have to compliment each other.
Still try it with a larger prop. Anything, just get the R's on 8,500 or fractionally under/ over.
Old 07-29-2006, 03:54 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

For right now the cline is floating on top the engine as it is mounted sideways. I don't like it flopping around so I'll probably make a mount for it. I do want to keep the regulator within an inch of the carb as the carb signal is what pulls all of the fuel. The reason why I bought the regulator is because many recommended it over the perry pump as it needs no adjustment. The carb sucks, the regulator delievers fuel, it's that simple. I also wanted something completely consistant regardless of attitude or level of fuel in the tank. I should also mention the fuel tank is on the CG which is the biggest reason.

I'll look to see if I can get the shim and a couple of plugs coming from tower since the local hobby stores won't have that.

About the prop, is there something you recommend? STG has been testing the skorepa 19x7 which seems to work well, but it pulls the engine down to 8000. Is that too low? I wonder if I can get a skorepa 18x7... that should be right in there since the skorepa 18x6 runs 100 rpm lower than the apc 18x6w. I'll be driving to the hobby shop in a couple of hours, should I pick up a zinger pro 18x8 for testing? That will probably put the rpms where I want them, but I don't know how will it will work in my 3d app.

Thanks again for everyones help,
schu
Old 07-29-2006, 04:09 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

Hi,
My Cap 232, 27% is very happy with OS160FX , OSF plug, APC 16x12 prop, fuel 10% nitro. No fuel pumps, cline regulators were ever needed to make this engine as wild as possible.
Old 07-29-2006, 04:14 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

Yes I believe STG is running that engine competitively so he's most certainly someone you should listen to.
I think he's spot on with the R's. I would expect even greater things at 8000 and some pattern guys are far lower than that.... it depends on how you're going to be driving the engine. Some use a 17x12, you can imagine how slow that is turning... we can get away with it be cause our planes weigh typically say 9.5 -10.5lbs. Very light compared to the average Imac type setup.
When it come to props i'm an APC man. I can't judge what changes different diameter/pitches are making if i'm jumping from one brand to another. Again Listen to what STG's having luck with.

Yes having the short pipe from the reg' to the carb is what it saying in the instructions, but it isn't alway the best for any and all carb's.
Try it and see. Again it's just fantasy to think you can fit a regulator to any engine and life is good. It just doen't work that way.
Some carb designs work better with reg's and others with pumps. Everyone that I know uses a pump, Perry, OS with that engine.
Just try using a longer pipe and moving the reg' around, see what happens. Very ofen nothing, allowing folks to mount them on the fire wall!
Old 07-29-2006, 11:30 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

Ok, here is where I'm at:

I played with the idle a little more and got a good consistant 1900rpm. I started leaning it out until it wouldn't run anymore which was around 1.5 turns out on the mixture. At that setting transistion was ok, it was still slow and rich moving though the midrange but it wasn't bogging down like before. When it got to the top end I had to richen it up 300 rpm because it started crackeling from deto. I switched to the F plug looking for retarted timing, but that wasn't enough, so I definatly need the shim so I place a tower order for the shim and a few more F plugs.

I think I'll order a few skorepa props on monday, hopefully I can those in hand before this weekend.

schu
Old 07-30-2006, 10:37 AM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

You can use 5 or 10% nitro and forget the head shim. You don't have to lean the low end so much. The idle controls the midrange and it won't hurt your idle to be slightly rich. You can do the pinch test with a hemostat or needle nose pliers. You may end up with a lower idle if it is slightly rich also.

How much time do you have on the engine? Are you running it on a test stand or in the plane?

The engine would run better on a Bisson St4500 or OS BGX muffler.
Old 07-30-2006, 11:31 AM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

Since most of the fuel cost is hazmat shipping here in Alaska the price between 5% fuel and 15% fuel is about $2 per gallon. For that price I would rather setup for 15% and only pack around one kind of fuel. The engine probably has 15 tanks though it now and is mounted in a plane.

I know that the BGX muffler works a little better, but I got the 1.60 muffler with it, and after cutting the stacks it does pretty ok so I doubt I'll upgrade.

I should get my shim in the mail in a few days then I think I'll have a pretty good setup.

schu
Old 07-30-2006, 06:45 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

Makes sense and sounds good. Good luck.
Old 07-31-2006, 12:34 AM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

Ok, picked up more fuel today, I stand corrected.... 5% fuel is $17.50 and %15 is $23.84 so for the $6 per gallon difference and the rate at which the bigger engines go though it I decided to pick up a gallon of 5%. If the engine runs real smooth and the plane works well on 5% then I'll just pack around extra fuel, but if 15% and the shim works way better and also runs well then I might just pay the $6. For now I'll try both and see what works in the air.

Hopefully I'll get ahold of Ed Skorepa tomorrow and get a few props coming.

schu
Old 07-31-2006, 11:18 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

Ok, here is where I'm at:

The 5% fuel is what I'm going to run. I didn't loose any rpm with it and the engine was a bit smoother, but I still have this rich mid range.

I can get the low speed mixture so lean that it will barely idle and it will die if you aren't real slow to add throttle, and the high speed mixture just right, and it still boggs though the midrange. Apparently this carb has so much signal in the midrange it just tries to flood itself when the on-demand regulator gives it all the fuel it wants. In order to fix this I bent the tab down on the cline regulator making it a little less sensitive to carb signal, then ran 9" of fuel line between the regulator and the carb. This seemed to help, but it's still to rich. I then tried putting the cline behind the high speed needle which makes the carb pull it's fuel though the needle and the engine ran good, but I couldn't make it rich enough to 4 stroke so that isn't going to work.

I'll call Jim Cline in the morning and go though this with him, but really the biggest issue is that this carb just has way to much carb signal in the midrange.

Ed Skorepa dropped two props in the mail (19x6 and a 19x7) when those get here later this week I'll try again, hopefully I'll find the right combo before I chew up $50 in fuel

schu
Old 07-31-2006, 11:21 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

I wish I could get a carb for this that had 3 or more different fuel circuits. If this was a hollley or mikuni I would have leaned up the midrange and have been done with it.
Old 08-01-2006, 02:56 AM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w


ORIGINAL: akschu

Ok, here is where I'm at:
I then tried putting the cline behind the high speed needle which makes the carb pull it's fuel though the needle and the engine ran good, but I couldn't make it rich enough to 4 stroke so that isn't going to work.

schu
Hold your horses here old been.

Lets just confirm the order here, it should be for your engine set-up:
Tank, Cline, HSN then Carb.

You're saying you've had it set-up as:
Tank, HSN, Cline then Crab?

Never seen it done that way, I'm sure it's wrong and it's the first set.up you want.
Old 08-01-2006, 03:44 AM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

The instructions state the second way where the regulator is between the HSN and the carb which makes perfect sense because the ventui action of the carb will cause the the regulator to flow fuel as the carb needs it, while the HSN limits the whole thing on the high end. Theory of operation is simple, the regulator has a plunger that taps on a float like valve that opens the intake side. As the carb ventui sucks on the output side, it causes the regulator to pass a little fuel. So having the regulator next to the carb is pretty much the same as having the clunk 1/2" from the carb, but without any exhaust pressure pushing it. This would work fine if the carb wasn't sucking too much fuel in the midrange.

Now I did try it the other way with the regulator before the HSN and that did transistion better, but I couldn't get the engine to run rich even with the HSN all the way out, so the carb signal wasn't good enough to draw the fuel though the HSN.

I wish this carb had a seperate idle circuit, then this wouldn't be a big deal.
Old 08-01-2006, 09:56 AM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

I don't buy that method at all.
Having it after the HSN mean the you're using that needle to meter the fuel reaching the Cline and not the carb.
The carb is left to gulp what it can when it wants to and as you're seeing, it's just to much and you're unable to meter it.
Clines are a old product, they where specifically made to meter the fuel reaching a carb through it's built in HSN.
Moki's for example, they work superbly with that regulator.
I think that this second alternative method sound like some BS invented by the producer/distributor or who ever to cover that fact that many modern engines come with a remote HSN. Even YS has the reg' before the HSN/carb.

This could well be the reason why Ive only seen pumps used on that engine and the smaller .91FX for that matter.
I think you should spend $30 get a Perry and join the thousands that have experience with that set-up.
The Cline can sit in the hanger waiting for that ideal engine. Mine has... 10 years or so.

By the way I'd stick to the 15% and one head shim.
You will notice no power difference from 0-15% at all and so you shouldn't. (you need to go to 20-30% to get a noticable power increase.
What you will get with 15% is better starting, far more consistant idleling and better throttle transition.
Alround better running engine...but it isn't critical.


I think you should try one last thing.
Take the Remote HSN for the back plate and attach it to the engine mounting lugs close to the carb as possible, then attatch the Reg' directly behing that.
It's 10mins extra work but may save you the pice if the Perry.
Old 08-01-2006, 12:45 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

Are you posative the midrange is rich and not lean? I had a Cline on my 160FX back in 2000 and never had the problem you are experiencing. I removed the regulator as it was not needed. I use them on multi cylinder four strokes in lu of on board glow.

Have you performed the pinch test at 3000-5000 rpm?
Old 08-01-2006, 01:36 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

It makes a TON of smoke and starts 4 stroking, so yea, I'm sure.

With the cline setup, where do I want to do this pinch test at? In front or behind the cline when it's mounted between the HSN and carb?
Old 08-01-2006, 04:05 PM
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Default RE: Setting up an OS 1.60, cline, bisson pitts, 18x6w

I don't think it matters. It should lean out either way.

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