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SuperTigre mid-range problems?

Old 03-10-2007, 04:32 PM
  #76  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

Ed,
I took your advice and bought a Saito 150. All the threads on this engine having a sloppy midrange - changing carbs etc put me off. It's easier for me to buy something I know will run.
John
There. I've said it. Buy OS. If you can't run a Tigre, you don't know what you are doing. Stick with an engine that comes equipped with training wheels.

The folks that are selling these engines are not helping any. Tigres run best on 5% or no nitro at all. If they have reengineered the engines in their move to China, it would be nice if they had enough good manners to tell the rest of us. Until that happens, let it be known that more than 5% nitro in these engines ON THE AVERAGE (meaning that with a ganging of tolerances, there can be an occasional engine produced that runs well on 50% nitro) will suffer from midrange stumbles and misery. This is not rocket science. It is nothing new. It has always been this way. Why is this such a puzzlement to some people?

Between newbies with no patience and folks writing up incorrect instruction manuals in order to sell a few more engines, regardless of the consequences to their customers, this ongoing diatribe is getting very, very, very old.

Ed Cregger
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Old 03-10-2007, 07:58 PM
  #77  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?


ORIGINAL: Not24

Sorry, Ed, but I completely disagree with what you have said in the above post. My experience tells me that you are wrong when you try to blame the people, not the engineers behind the engines. Sure, there are bone heads out there that don't know what they are doing, I just don't consider myself in that group of people.

---------------


I'm not calling you or the rest of them boneheads. I'm calling them inexperienced, incompetent (when it comes to Super Tigres) and too impatient, for the most part, to simply run some fuel through the engine until it runs right. It sometimes takes a LOT of fuel (of the proper nitro percentage).

Yes, there will be exceptions where quality control slipped up and let something out the door that was defective. That happens with every manufacturer. But I don't think every ST that leaves the plant is defective. I keep buying a new ST from time to time and they run exactly as they always have. Why don't I ever get a defective sample?

What I'm really trying to say is that if one wants instant gratification, look elsewhere for it. ST just ain't it. But that doesn't mean that the engines are bad. Just different.

I used to go through the same thing with folks that bought Fox engines. Mine ran fine. Theirs didn't. I usually ended up owning theirs. Then they would get pissed when I'd bring it out to the field and it ran well - but after a suitable break-in and set up.

Additionally, these engines were not designed to be 3D engines. Again, with a ganging of tolerances you might find one out of ten that 3D's just fine, but it is the exception, not the rule.

It would be so easy for the folks that own Super Tigre to change the engine sufficiently to rid its customers of all of these complaints, but it appears that they are not interested in doing so. So, why fight it. Buy something else.


Ed Cregger
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:17 PM
  #78  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

The proper nitro percentage is 15. Not 0 or 5. Some even swear by 20%, but that's just not necessary. 10% works, but 15% is much better. I stand by that.
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:32 PM
  #79  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

I can't believe the amount of trouble some people are having with ST carbies.
There is NOTHING wrong with the design or there performance.
I agree with Ed, the problem lies with the user.

I use and have used ST engines, big & small, for years and have no problems whatsoever.
I am an everyday uncomplicated user, start it run it use it, I dont care for or require every last RPM I can ring out of it by using vast amounts of Nitro.
I don't even tach my motors, no need to.

Dont expect a ridiculus low idle.
Idle speed is NOT set by the Low speed needle, its set by the throttle barrel,thats what Travel adjust on your computer radio is for.
Stop using lots of nitro ITS NOT REQUIRED IN Super Tigres 5% is enough and none in the big ones (not 2300)
Set the bottom end by the Italian method....it works and its easy.
And if all else fails read the instructions.

My 2500 is used in an Extra 300, full on aerobatics, throttle is blipped all the time, hovers, flys inverted all the aerobatic manouveres and it and does not miss a beat ever. Fuel is 10% coolpower oil and 90%methanol, no pumps no tricks no tweaks no turning or touching the spray bar, nothing, just run it in properly.

If you can't get your ST to run transition and idle properly you bought the wrong engine.

I am no expert and I am not interested in the technical why's and wherefors so please stop bagging one of the best engines made and go buy something else.

Phew. ... how many times do you see issues like this at the field, wrong this, wrong that, won't work, stops, its usually the same people that have trouble with everything.
A very good example of this syndrome is the KMP ME109 thread Re the CG . Go figure......!!!

No offence intended to anyone.

Super Tigres for ever. (I also own and use OS, Saito, Enya and Magnum)

Paul

PS If your new ST is no good I'll buy it for $50.
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Old 03-11-2007, 02:04 AM
  #80  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?


ORIGINAL: JNorton

Ed,
I took your advice and bought a Saito 150. All the threads on this engine having a sloppy midrange - changing carbs etc put me off. It's easier for me to buy something I know will run.
John
There. I've said it. Buy OS. If you can't run a Tigre, you don't know what you are doing. Stick with an engine that comes equipped with training wheels.

The folks that are selling these engines are not helping any. Tigres run best on 5% or no nitro at all. If they have reengineered the engines in their move to China, it would be nice if they had enough good manners to tell the rest of us. Until that happens, let it be known that more than 5% nitro in these engines ON THE AVERAGE (meaning that with a ganging of tolerances, there can be an occasional engine produced that runs well on 50% nitro) will suffer from midrange stumbles and misery. This is not rocket science. It is nothing new. It has always been this way. Why is this such a puzzlement to some people?

Between newbies with no patience and folks writing up incorrect instruction manuals in order to sell a few more engines, regardless of the consequences to their customers, this ongoing diatribe is getting very, very, very old.

Ed Cregger

---------------


Well, thanks for not being angry with me for being truthful.

You did the right thing, by the way, although another brand of engine could have been good too.


Ed Cregger
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Old 03-11-2007, 03:44 AM
  #81  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger
There is nothing wrong with ST engines. Just the people that own them that are having problems. They are inexperienced and incompetent. The world did not begin when they were born, contrary to their belief.
Sorry Ed, but that means you're calling me inexperienced and incompetent - but I don't consider myself either of those two things :-)

I've flow-modeled the ST90 carby and my simulation *proves* that it is a flawed design if you want both a good low idle and a reliable mid-range/transition.

Unless the three ST90 carbs I've got here (which are identical) are all anomolies that happend by sheer coincidence to make it into my posession, then the reason people are having mid-range problems is down to bad design.

*Very* careful tuning and the use of crutches such as idle-bar plugs, the "ideal" prop, etc can partially mitigate the effects of th design flaws -- but ultimately these are a bad carb.

If OS, Thunder Tiger, ASP/Magnum, Saito, and the vast majority of other engine makers can design carbs which are able to be tuned in just a few short minutes by relative novices -- doesn't that give you just a little clue that there's something woefully wrong with the ST design when so very many people are having so much trouble?

And how come, simply throwing an OS or other brand carb on a fussy ST engine completely solves the problem?

Because the ST carbs are a legacy of a time that has long-passed when people didn't need low idles and good mid-range.

The ST twin-needle carb was highly praised when it was released because it was the successor to air-bleed carbs so it *was* good for its day. Today however, it's a dinosaur that hasn't been updated to meet the needs of a totally different breed of model.

We overpower our planes these days, putting 90-sized motors in airframes that would have been made for 40-50 sized motors when the ST carb was first designed. A 2750 RPM idle was considered *very* low back then and because of the poor power to weight ratio, most models would have no problem landing even with an idle up as far as 3,500.

Today, we really need low idle speeds to allow our over-powered planes to land and taxi properly -- so when people put an ST90 in a plane that would previously have flown on half the power, they need an idle as low as 2.000-2,250 -- or the damned things won't come down or sit still on the runway.

So, what happens is that people tune the bottom-end of their ST carbs for a nice smooth, reliable idle (and these engines will idle well under 2,000 RPMs when broken so that's easy to do). Unfortunately, to get them idling this low, the low-speed needle has to be opened quite a bit (because of the design flaw) -- which means that when the throttle is advanced past idle, they run *very* rich. This produces hesitancy and sometimes is so bad that the engine will actually load-up and quit altogether.

The US ST agent's solution was simple -- raise the idle speed.

Of course this works very well. Bring the idle back up to 2,750 and the rich mid-range goes away because you can lean out the low-speed needle without the engine quitting. But then you have the problem that most lightly-loaded, overpowered modern models can't be flown with such a high idle.

In summing up -- it's a design fault, the carby is way out of date, it could be fixed with a *very* small change to the design so that you didn't have to be highly"experienced" and "competent" to make it work.

So why are ST sitting on their thumbs and selling such a poor carb, which reflects badly on their engine performance -- when, for just a few hours of NC programming on their CNC gear, they could turn these engines into ones that were just as easy to tune as OS and just as flexible in their performance?

Kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it?
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Old 03-11-2007, 04:17 AM
  #82  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

Hi Guys. Relatively new to the hobby here (just over one year on the sticks) and found this thread. I've just purchased a new 2300 from Tower with the Bisson muffler. I read all the posts and was quite nervous about the engine due to the press it received. Here to say that I ran the engine in on the plane until it idled at 2200-2300 rpm, transistioned well and got about 8700 rpm on the APC 17X8 prop. Started out rich and fine-tuned it 1/8th turn at a time. Pucker factor was quite high yesterday as I took it up for the first time. I didn't plug any ports on the exhaust, don't run a pump and I didn't even have to turn the spray bar from stock. It flew fine and is still a little rich on the low and high end. I intend on keeping it there until it tells me that it doesn't like it anymore. I'm running 15 percent Magnum fuel. The only real problem that I found was that if I slowly close the throttle, it sticks. I believe it is because of the rubber seal that goes between the throttle arm and the carb. I think it's still a little "tight". If I blip the throttle, it closes completely. All that to say this, so far, the engine has proven itself and if it continues to run like it did yesterday, it will be a long, happy relationship.

By the way, I used to fly this plane (Goldberg Sukhoi) with a 180 Saito.
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Old 03-11-2007, 06:10 AM
  #83  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

Hi Xjet

I am still intrigued by all this.

Can you tell me:

Nitro content in your fuel?
oil content?
Chinese or Italian engine?
Is it only the 90 your having trouble with?
Do you set your idle with the LSNV or the position of the throttle barrel?

Lots of our guys use Tigres and no one has any trouble at all.
I will try and get some details/info from guys with 90's and let you know the result.
Cheers
Paul



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Old 03-11-2007, 10:40 AM
  #84  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

ORIGINAL: TCrafty

By the way, I used to fly this plane (Goldberg Sukhoi) with a 180 Saito.
I'd like to know which engine you like better on the Sukhoi. I've got mine in a Sukhoi (kit) and it is absolutely perfect. I like the 16-10 prop the best. I get 9000 with that prop. Oh yeah, almost forgot. I switched the carb to a Magnum to get it to run right.[&o]
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:40 AM
  #85  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?


ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger
ORIGINAL: JNorton

Ed,
I took your advice and bought a Saito 150. All the threads on this engine having a sloppy midrange - changing carbs etc put me off. It's easier for me to buy something I know will run.
John
---------------
Well, thanks for not being angry with me for being truthful.
You did the right thing, by the way, although another brand of engine could have been good too.
Ed Cregger
Ed,
I think you tell it like it is. I've had MDS, Enya, OS, Thunder Tiger, Saito, Magnum and I haven't had a problem tuning them. One of the guys at the field had a ST 90 that I tried to tune. I peaked the high speed jet, then did a pinch test to set the low speed idle. I couldn't get it set, slobbery rich midrange. A more experienced member finally did get it to run properly, but in a week it was back to slobbery rich. Probably because the guy kept fooling with it.

I was seriously thinking about the 2300 until I kept reading about everyone's problem in the forum. I hope it's not a case of it being completely overblown like it was with MDS. Those were a good motor if you'll took the time to break them in. If Super Tigre's keep on getting all this bad publicity they will probably go the way the MSD motors did.

As the 2300 was going into my GP chipmunk I did not want to take a chance with it. The Saito 150 has a good reputation so that's what I went with.
John
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Old 03-11-2007, 02:38 PM
  #86  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

I have watched Ed argue on behalf of St's on a couple of forums now, and have mixed words with him and I have come to realize something. I think the choice of the engine has alot to do with the type of flying you wish to do. Purely assuming here, but Ed's signature line says he's been flying since the 50's, so I'd assume he likes to fly sport style planes, or warbirds. If that is the case, these planes usually fly at a low throttle setting, or a high throttle setting and not alot in the midrange. I on the other hand, choose to fly 3D, where almost all of my flying is in the midrange, right where a ST has it's weakness.

After reading and watching ST's fly, I have come to conclusion that a ST might suit you just fine if you want mild sport style flying, but if you want hardcore 3D flying, ST's are probably not your best choice.

By the way, I have yet to see a ST compete in any actual legitimate competition as of yet for pattern or imac classes.
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Old 03-11-2007, 04:55 PM
  #87  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

I just ran my new g90 again. Tanks#3 and 4. I changed from the stock muffler to a Slimline pitts. The prop is a master airscrew scimitar 13-8. The fuel is 15% Omega. I was able to get the engine to exhibit the rich midrange. In fact, at half throttle it would just quit. I leaned the low needle a little at a time till this went away. All in all, the engine appears to be ready to fly. It will idle at 2500, and top end is 10,600. The low needle is just lean enough so that if I jam the throttle from idle it will hesitate a little. Normal servo speed won't allow this to happen. I even raised the stand to vertical, as if hovering or harriering, and I was able to run the engine at any speed I chose, either steadily or blipping the throttle. My G90 seems to be one of the good ones.

No pump, no plugged muffler outlet, stock ST plug. I'm happy.
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Old 03-11-2007, 05:57 PM
  #88  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?


ORIGINAL: mtwister
By the way, I have yet to see a ST compete in any actual legitimate competition as of yet for pattern or imac classes.
A couple of pattern sites using the ST2300
http://www.rcpattern.com/2cycle.htm
http://www.rcaerobats.net/STEng/ST_Story.htm
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Old 03-11-2007, 06:11 PM
  #89  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

i posted awhile ago that i was having a problem getting the 2300 to richen out at high end and ed i have been using tigers since the early 60ths. this was a problem that i have never had before everyone kept telling me to check the pressure tap that it was plugged this was a brand new set up and the first time the engine was run after going almost nuts over this problem i sent the engine back to the factory, come to find out the piston ring was in two pieces they replaced the sleeve and the ring so things do happen at the factory not often but enough to cause problems since i have got the engine back it runs like a tiger should I run it on 5% no more the idle is good the mid range is perfect i took my time and did a break in that you have to do with st engines
70 oz of fuel before i even started to adj the idle and mid range this engine is in a 1/4 yak 54 at 19 lbs flys it just like i want it to
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Old 03-11-2007, 08:39 PM
  #90  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

Not24,

I liked the Saito on the plane. I had an 18X5 prop on it and it pulled it around nicely but I was never comfortable with it. I probably would have liked it better with the 17X8 that I've got on it now. It pulled more on the low end (benfit of the 4C) than the ST but I felt more comfortable with the ST 2300 on this plane. I'll admit that I was VERY apprehensive about the SuperTigre after seeing all the posts but, it was ordered and on it's way. Plus, I wanted to learn about other engines besides OS and Saito. I've noticed that certain brands can almost take over a field because one guy tells another and another and soon, it's all one-branded. My biggest problem with the Sukhoi or my new Giles is that I need to learn to fly faster. I've got a few floaters (Kadet Senior, Lazy Tiger, Rascal, etc.) but I wanted to extend my horizons into aerobats. I had a few good flights on both this weekend and I'm hoping for more of the same. I may even have to go out and buy a new cowl for the Sukhoi since it flies so nicely. I had wondered about getting a 3250 instead of the 2300 but I'm glad I didn't. More wieght and the plane doesn't need the power. Another added bonus, I think the ST 2300 doesn't use as much fuel as the Saito. Yippee!

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Old 03-11-2007, 09:37 PM
  #91  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

In my experimentation, I realized that the idle has to be rich enough to compensate for the fact that there is no accelerator pump to jet a stream of fuel into the carb upon instant wide open throttle. You have to richen the low speed to a point that the engine transitions from low to high without hesitation, but not so rich as to cause loading of raw fuel in the crankcase, which makes it slobber and stumble it's way to high speed after idling for any length of time. It's a narrow window. Follow the instructions in the manual for the Idle Mixture Setting: "The easiest way to set the idle needle is to close the throttle so that the drum valve is open approximately the diameter of a pin. ( I use a straight pin) At this point fit a piece of clean fuel tubing on to the inlet nipple and with the main needle open 2 to 3 turns blow through the tube whilst screwing in the idle needle until the air is cut off. At this point open the idle needle between a quarter and half a turn. This will be very close to the perfect setting."[sm=49_49.gif]
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:04 PM
  #92  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

ORIGINAL: pc55bomber

Hi Xjet

I am still intrigued by all this.

Can you tell me:

Nitro content in your fuel?
I've tried various brews, from 0% to 10% nitro.

oil content?
Again, i've varied from 18% down to 12%. The 12% was marginally better but still not good.

Chinese or Italian engine?
All my STs are Chinease.

Is it only the 90 your having trouble with?
The ST90s are the only Tigres I own right now.

Do you set your idle with the LSNV or the position of the throttle barrel?
With the barrel position. To set the idle with the mixture screw will inevitably result in a very bad transition due to excessive richness.


[/quote]
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:13 AM
  #93  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

I have 6 g90s. they are up to 9 years old. They all run very well. I have 3 chinese built 2300s. I have run two of them, and they run even better than the g90s. In fact they tune/run better than the OS61sf, which up to the time I bought the first 2300 was the best tuning engine I had had.
If you expect them to tune like you want them to tune or as you would design them it's not likely to happen. They are a very good design. You need to learn how to tune them. They do not tune like a Saito. Saitos run extremely rich- at least the ones do that the Saito guys at my field run. Tigers do not. Tigers run well a little rich but nowhere near as rich as Saitos.

Proper back pressure from the muffler makes the tigers tune and run best. They do not take a low idle until they are broken in well, as the ring isn't seated against the cylinder well enough to pull fuel well until they are broken in. So you need to either run them with an high idle at first or break them in well on the ground. Then you can tune them in for a low idle - low being 2k- 2.5k rpm, at least for the props I tend to use. I use apc 14-6 on the g90 and 17-8 wood props on the 2300 (I haven't picked a preferred wood prop source yet- still deciding).

Bisson and Slimline seem to make mufflers that physically fit the engines they make them for, but they don't seem to do any real development of the muffler to make it a proper design for the engines. So in my opinion it's not Super Tiger that has an improper deisgn, its Bisson and Slimline.

So why hassle Super Tiger? Why not get Bisson and Slimline to fix their pitts muffler designs? This would cure most of the problems people have. Or maybe look for another muffler source that has done their job properly.

As for me I have found the easiest way to fix their mufflers is to close down the outlet tubes until they provide enough back pressure so the carb tunes correctly. This is especially important on the 2300 mufflers, which have outlet tubes that are WAY too big for the 2300. It also helps on the g90 - they are fairly good as Bisson and Slimline make them.

So this thread more properly should be labeled Muffler Design Problems, not Super Tigre mid-range problems.

Ed
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:33 AM
  #94  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

Thanks, but those are just classifications. I'll say it again, I (as in me personally) have yet to see a ST in a legitimate comp.
ORIGINAL: JNorton


ORIGINAL: mtwister
By the way, I have yet to see a ST compete in any actual legitimate competition as of yet for pattern or imac classes.
A couple of pattern sites using the ST2300
http://www.rcpattern.com/2cycle.htm
http://www.rcaerobats.net/STEng/ST_Story.htm
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Old 03-12-2007, 03:00 PM
  #95  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

I'll top yah. I've yet to see "personally" any competitions of any kind. West Michigan is kinda slow for that kind of thing.

I just thought you might like to see what I came up with while I was researching whether to purchase a ST 2300.
RC Aerobats shows a procedure for tuning without any modifications being done. Needless to say since I purchased a Saito instead of trying the ST I didn't try it myself.
John
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:32 PM
  #96  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

Oregon is just now getting popular with the competitions, we always had them, but mostly in Portland, or far south in Redmond. For awhile there I was travelling to Wash. and Northern Cali for comps. In my very own personal opinion, you made a very wise choice in engines. The big Saito's are happy running on 30% just as much as 5%, they always run good, and have a very long life. The bottom end grunt of that big Saito rocks also!
ORIGINAL: JNorton

I'll top yah. I've yet to see "personally" any competitions of any kind. West Michigan is kinda slow for that kind of thing.

I just thought you might like to see what I came up with while I was researching whether to purchase a ST 2300.
RC Aerobats shows a procedure for tuning without any modifications being done. Needless to say since I purchased a Saito instead of trying the ST I didn't try it myself.
John
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:09 PM
  #97  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

Thanks MTwister,
I think I'll get outa here now since this is about ST's. I'm still debating on whether to buy one since I hear such a divergence of opinions.
John
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:36 PM
  #98  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

ORIGINAL: rc34074
Proper back pressure from the muffler makes the tigers tune and run best. They do not take a low idle until they are broken in well, as the ring isn't seated against the cylinder well enough to pull fuel well until they are broken in.
My G90s are well-run in, with about 10 hours on them so far -- and the performance is *worst* with the standard ST muffler - so perhaps we *should* be moaning at ST.

A mousse-can muffler helps a little -- as does everything else -- but there should be no need to mess around with odd-ball plugs, prop-sizes and third-party carbs just to make an off-the-shelf engine run like its competitors do.

So why hassle Super Tiger? Why not get Bisson and Slimline to fix their pitts muffler designs? This would cure most of the problems people have. Or maybe look for another muffler source that has done their job properly.
If it don't run right with the ST muffler, why complain that the Bisson and Slimlines are no better?

As for me I have found the easiest way to fix their mufflers is to close down the outlet tubes until they provide enough back pressure so the carb tunes correctly. This is especially important on the 2300 mufflers, which have outlet tubes that are WAY too big for the 2300. It also helps on the g90 - they are fairly good as Bisson and Slimline make them.
There you go again though -- having to modify stuff to get an off-the-shelf engine to run like it should. I don't have any of these problems with OS, ASP/Magnum, Thunder Tiger or other engine brands.
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Old 03-13-2007, 01:23 AM
  #99  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

Ed (RC34074), my response is in no way directed at you personally, but I am using your post as the basis of a point by point response because it is comprehensive in nature and embodies much of what the Super Tigre Alumni offer in defence of the marque...

I have 6 g90s. they are up to 9 years old. They all run very well. I have 3 chinese built 2300s. I have run two of them, and they run even better than the g90s. In fact they tune/run better than the OS61sf, which up to the time I bought the first 2300 was the best tuning engine I had had.
looking good so far.... but...

If you expect them to tune like you want them to tune or as you would design them it's not likely to happen. They are a very good design. You need to learn how to tune them. They do not tune like a Saito.
Bang!! There it is... This is where denial of the ST's less than ideal carb calibration takes place but, ironically, where it's revealed that they do indeed have strange quirks. Editorial comment: a good glow engine should tune like another good glow engine (in this case, the Saito); knowledge of tuning a Saito, an OS or a TT should be relevant to an ST.

Proper back pressure from the muffler makes the tigers tune and run best.
Here's another implicit revelation. What many of us read into this is... "the carb is not calibrated correctly and needs the band-aid of higher than normal tank pressure to help mitigate this". Editorial comment: A good engine should carburate properly with an open header, a normal sport muffler, a tuned pipe and a properly designed Pitts muffler. If it needs pressure to function properly, the carb is too big or is not drawing fuel satisfactorily for some other reason.

They do not take a low idle until they are broken in well, as the ring isn't seated against the cylinder well enough to pull fuel well until they are broken in.
Hold the bus: here's another between-the-lines revelation: they won't idle when new, like we expect good engines to. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to buy an engine that is ready to use in a plane with a minimum of pre-running. Likewise, I'd prefer an engine manufacturer to provide the engine to me with its machining complete, rather than my having to burn up large quantities of my own fuel finishing the job off for them.

A good engine will idle and run well with a tank or two through it - in fact in the time it takes to run through a couple of heat cycles and set the low speed needle for a decent idle, it should be ready to fly. OS, Saito, YS. ASP, Magnum, GMS and TT can do this; why can't ST?

So you need to either run them with an high idle at first or break them in well on the ground. Then you can tune them in for a low idle - low being 2k- 2.5k rpm, at least for the props I tend to use.
Other engines are ready to go and idle at less than 2000 rpm with little more than 8-16 oz of fuel through them from new. All of my engines idle at 1800-2000 rpm. I have a YS 1.10 in a 5.5lb model with a 13x11 prop - I thank my lucky stars that it idles at 1800 rpm and not 2500 rpm, because it would never land at 2500 rpm. This engine has idled like this right from its first tank. A flying buddy's GMS .47 with a 12.25 x 3.75 APC prop can be made to idle reliably at 1400 rpm on demand.

So why hassle Super Tiger?
Some of us think that they have some work to do on their carbs

So this thread more properly should be labeled Muffler Design Problems, not Super Tigre mid-range problems.
Some of us respectfully disagree.
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Old 03-13-2007, 05:58 AM
  #100  
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Default RE: SuperTigre mid-range problems?

Xjet

Talked to some guys that have ST90's and they are the older Italian ones and they have no problems.

Try 5/10% nitro. We use 5% and no nitro in the big ones. >2500

Your oil at 12% is way too little, 18% ??? we use 20% castor or coolpower.
Only in the 3250/2500's (not 2300) you can lower the oil content to 10% for running and 12% to run in. Thats how my 3250 has spent its life and its soooo sweet, use it in a tow plane and it runs for about 50 mins per session non stop, idling for long periods, transitioning
and going full throttle without any fuss at all.

Maybe it's a problem with the Chinese one's but I would be surprised if that was the case. I can't see a huge US modelling Co. buy one of the best engine manufacturing names and then produce sub-standard engines. But who knows!!!

Your correct with setting the idle by using the throttle barrel, I have read lots of posts here doing it with the LSNV and that is not what it is for.

I have been running both Italian (29,34,51,2500) and chinese Tigres (45,61 & 3250) and have not found any faults at all with any of them. All have standard mufflers except the big ones (2500 J-Tec Square Muffler) (3250 J-Tec Snuffler Muffler).
Engines are aged from about 10years to current.

I always comment to my flying mates about how well they run and everyone is impressed with the 3250.
The 2500 flies 3D aerobatics and is also sweet as a nut and never misses a beat.

I have not tried any of the 90,s and will not be into the foreseeable future.
Sorry I don't have any suggestions to help you other than to tune the bottom end the Italian way, check for airleaks etc.

I have seen the new Instruction (Chinese) book and it is a very poor publication lacking greatly in the carby tuning area compared to the Italian booklet.

Super Tigres are a fantastic engine that will last you a lifetime, sure there are some people who will disagree, but so be it.

Its very disturbing for people to totally writeoff a brand because some people are having trouble.

I will try and get some video of the 2500 doing its thing and post it.

Cheers
Paul








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