Evolution engine
#26
RE: Evolution engine
ORIGINAL: Artisan
Opjose, please understand this and get it through your noggin' - THERE ARE NO FACTORY SETTINGS.
If the engine is runnable out of the box with the stock needle settings, it is a complete accident. A serendipitous occasion, for sure.
Opjose, please understand this and get it through your noggin' - THERE ARE NO FACTORY SETTINGS.
If the engine is runnable out of the box with the stock needle settings, it is a complete accident. A serendipitous occasion, for sure.
The Evolution engines have limiters on them that prohibit moving the needles outside a specific range.
The documentation tells you that you are NOT to move or attempt to move the needles outside the limiter range.
The engine is "preset" so that you can only perform minor adjustments as it comes out of the box. Check the advertising blubs as well, that also re-inforce this.
The problem (at least for me) was that the low speed limiter coller did not permit the idle speed needle to travel inward beyond this preset range, even when I loosened the grub screw on the collar.
The limiter collar would stop the low speed needle, even when I attempted to screw it in, with the grub screw fully loosened.
The collar would make it seem as if the needle had bottom out, even when it still had a good travel range.
Removing the collar altogether solved this.
#28
RE: Evolution engine
ORIGINAL: w8ye
opjose, I think you just contradicted yourself?
opjose, I think you just contradicted yourself?
He stated that "there are no factory settings".
But there are.
You are limited to a small range of needle movements that is supposed to keep the engine operating within a small preset range.
The PTS engine docs and ads extohl the fact that newbies do not need to adjust the engine out of the box.
#29
My Feedback: (16)
RE: Evolution engine
Yet most people move (or remove) the limiters (even you and me)
My first Evolution experience was that the limiters obviously were not set correctly. I had to look a little to see how to defeat the "factory settings". I tried to leave them set to where the engine would function correctly for the newbie.
Methanol based fuel is very sensitive to mixture. That's the reason they have adjustable needle valves instead of fixed orifices.
Only the Trainer System engine should have the limiters. The others don't need them.
Jim
My first Evolution experience was that the limiters obviously were not set correctly. I had to look a little to see how to defeat the "factory settings". I tried to leave them set to where the engine would function correctly for the newbie.
Methanol based fuel is very sensitive to mixture. That's the reason they have adjustable needle valves instead of fixed orifices.
Only the Trainer System engine should have the limiters. The others don't need them.
Jim
#30
RE: Evolution engine
Yeah, I agree.
I fought with the 1.00NX for MANY MANY hours (6+) trying to get it tuned.
In the end it was the collar itself that caused me so much grief. Even when loose it was preventing the needle from traveling in, failing to allow me to lean the engine out properly.
I thought that it was a lousy engine. Instead it's just a lousy safeguard that MUST be defeated...
I hope that the limiters get redesigned or eliminated on the next go around.
I fought with the 1.00NX for MANY MANY hours (6+) trying to get it tuned.
In the end it was the collar itself that caused me so much grief. Even when loose it was preventing the needle from traveling in, failing to allow me to lean the engine out properly.
I thought that it was a lousy engine. Instead it's just a lousy safeguard that MUST be defeated...
I hope that the limiters get redesigned or eliminated on the next go around.
#31
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blackfoot ,
ID
Posts: 2,251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Evolution engine
Shakes my head ,I have dialed in several Evo engines and always had to loosen the set screws so the needles would turn more than the limiters would allow .
If and only if you were in the location of where the engine was made they could possible be preset for that altitude and using the same fuel and set up as the factory used .Other wise you going to need to reset them end of story .So artisan is correct in saying that no engine is preset from the factory.As far as getting a engine to run correct inverted ,Tank height is everything no matter which way the engine is mounted,if you cant achieve the center of the tank to the center of the spray bar or a tad lower inverted only, don't even try it .I can tell you now it won't work unless the engine is pumped.
As far as the baffle goes I don't use one in any of my engines, I like the extra HP I get W.O. it.
Here again the engine has to be re tuned to run correctly W.O. the baffle .
Spending 6 Hours to adjust a engine is just plain insane to me ,all engines show very similar traits as to whats going on with them ,and again just because its wrote in the instructs doesn't mean its the final say so.Its more of a starting point than a final setting .Sorry if this sounds a little strong but the truths the truth .
If and only if you were in the location of where the engine was made they could possible be preset for that altitude and using the same fuel and set up as the factory used .Other wise you going to need to reset them end of story .So artisan is correct in saying that no engine is preset from the factory.As far as getting a engine to run correct inverted ,Tank height is everything no matter which way the engine is mounted,if you cant achieve the center of the tank to the center of the spray bar or a tad lower inverted only, don't even try it .I can tell you now it won't work unless the engine is pumped.
As far as the baffle goes I don't use one in any of my engines, I like the extra HP I get W.O. it.
Here again the engine has to be re tuned to run correctly W.O. the baffle .
Spending 6 Hours to adjust a engine is just plain insane to me ,all engines show very similar traits as to whats going on with them ,and again just because its wrote in the instructs doesn't mean its the final say so.Its more of a starting point than a final setting .Sorry if this sounds a little strong but the truths the truth .
#32
RE: Evolution engine
You have to remember:
- The Evolution is sold as not requiring adjustment beyond the set screws.
- The problem (for me) was not that the limiter was holding the needle (I did loosen it) from turning, but rather that the collar prevented the needle from moving INWARDS even with the set screw loosened. Only removing the collar altogether finally solved this.
In other words the needle acted as if it had bottomed out because of the collar.
- I spent so much time trying to dial it in because of the previous, as it would always seem that I had bottomed out the idle screw when it wasn't even close.
- There were no problems vis-a-vis tank position with my setup although it was suggested as a possiblity.
- The instructions are normally considered "gospel". Going outside of what they say is often touted as a means to void any warrantees or guarantees. Not that you are wrong or anything, but Evolution makes it out that these engines are preadjusted.
IMHO the limiters are worthless.
- The Evolution is sold as not requiring adjustment beyond the set screws.
- The problem (for me) was not that the limiter was holding the needle (I did loosen it) from turning, but rather that the collar prevented the needle from moving INWARDS even with the set screw loosened. Only removing the collar altogether finally solved this.
In other words the needle acted as if it had bottomed out because of the collar.
- I spent so much time trying to dial it in because of the previous, as it would always seem that I had bottomed out the idle screw when it wasn't even close.
- There were no problems vis-a-vis tank position with my setup although it was suggested as a possiblity.
- The instructions are normally considered "gospel". Going outside of what they say is often touted as a means to void any warrantees or guarantees. Not that you are wrong or anything, but Evolution makes it out that these engines are preadjusted.
IMHO the limiters are worthless.
#33
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blackfoot ,
ID
Posts: 2,251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Evolution engine
*L* If adjusting a engine to make it run right voids the warranty Theres not much there to start with.
and like I said before there is to many things involved for a engine to come preadusted .They set the engines at their altitude with their fuel and i'm sure if you are where they are at when testing the engines and using the same set up they are, the engine would fall into their preset limits .
Every New engine I get is rich on the bottom end ,WHY??? because they're set to run at sea level and I'm at 4500 feet,I don't have the air here so they always run rich .If your expecting a engine to run flawless out of the box I'm sorry it wont and don't happen, without some adjustments.
The limiters are not a bad idea but in most if not all cases they have to be loosened or removed to make the proper adjustments.
send a engine in for repair and when you get it back chances are it wont run correctly the way its adjusted because of altitude diff ,fuel diff and so on.
As far as evo claiming there engines are preset and in no need of farther adjusting thats a selling gimmick.There also supposed to be broken in ,the ones I have seen have never been run out of the box .So pray tell how can a engine thats never been run be broken in already ?????
Don't get me wrong I like the evo line of engines ,good power and fair on fuel consumption and good reliability.
and like I said before there is to many things involved for a engine to come preadusted .They set the engines at their altitude with their fuel and i'm sure if you are where they are at when testing the engines and using the same set up they are, the engine would fall into their preset limits .
Every New engine I get is rich on the bottom end ,WHY??? because they're set to run at sea level and I'm at 4500 feet,I don't have the air here so they always run rich .If your expecting a engine to run flawless out of the box I'm sorry it wont and don't happen, without some adjustments.
The limiters are not a bad idea but in most if not all cases they have to be loosened or removed to make the proper adjustments.
send a engine in for repair and when you get it back chances are it wont run correctly the way its adjusted because of altitude diff ,fuel diff and so on.
As far as evo claiming there engines are preset and in no need of farther adjusting thats a selling gimmick.There also supposed to be broken in ,the ones I have seen have never been run out of the box .So pray tell how can a engine thats never been run be broken in already ?????
Don't get me wrong I like the evo line of engines ,good power and fair on fuel consumption and good reliability.
#34
RE: Evolution engine
You are right on all counts.
I should not have headed the instructions.
Once I discovered the problem with the coller it took no more that 30 minutes to get it tuned up properly.
I should not have headed the instructions.
Once I discovered the problem with the coller it took no more that 30 minutes to get it tuned up properly.
#35
Senior Member
My Feedback: (14)
RE: Evolution engine
ORIGINAL: opjose
Eh, Not true.
The Evolution engines have limiters on them that prohibit moving the needles outside a specific range.
The documentation tells you that you are NOT to move or attempt to move the needles outside the limiter range.
The engine is "preset" so that you can only perform minor adjustments as it comes out of the box. Check the advertising blubs as well, that also re-inforce this.
The problem (at least for me) was that the low speed limiter coller did not permit the idle speed needle to travel inward beyond this preset range, even when I loosened the grub screw on the collar.
The limiter collar would stop the low speed needle, even when I attempted to screw it in, with the grub screw fully loosened.
The collar would make it seem as if the needle had bottom out, even when it still had a good travel range.
Removing the collar altogether solved this.
ORIGINAL: Artisan
Opjose, please understand this and get it through your noggin' - THERE ARE NO FACTORY SETTINGS.
If the engine is runnable out of the box with the stock needle settings, it is a complete accident. A serendipitous occasion, for sure.
Opjose, please understand this and get it through your noggin' - THERE ARE NO FACTORY SETTINGS.
If the engine is runnable out of the box with the stock needle settings, it is a complete accident. A serendipitous occasion, for sure.
The Evolution engines have limiters on them that prohibit moving the needles outside a specific range.
The documentation tells you that you are NOT to move or attempt to move the needles outside the limiter range.
The engine is "preset" so that you can only perform minor adjustments as it comes out of the box. Check the advertising blubs as well, that also re-inforce this.
The problem (at least for me) was that the low speed limiter coller did not permit the idle speed needle to travel inward beyond this preset range, even when I loosened the grub screw on the collar.
The limiter collar would stop the low speed needle, even when I attempted to screw it in, with the grub screw fully loosened.
The collar would make it seem as if the needle had bottom out, even when it still had a good travel range.
Removing the collar altogether solved this.
-------------
That's what I said - there are no presets - in spite of their intentions.
#38
RE: Evolution engine
ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger
That's what I said - there are no presets - in spite of their intentions.
That's what I said - there are no presets - in spite of their intentions.
I've got a nice brochure in front of me as I write this that states. and I'm quoting:
"Evolution's NT series of glow engines are top-of-the-line 2-strokes, guaranteed to start quickly and easily. Each offers preset SetRight (tm) needle valves that take all of the guesswork out of the operation. Every Evolution engines is test-run at the factory, so there is no set up or break in necessary when you pull it out of the box-you just install it and fly.".
Hmmm.... anyone EVER experience this?
#39
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Corning,
NY
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Evolution engine
tmw,
I am having the same problem with my EVolution .61. It won't start inverted, but when you turn it right side up it will run and transition like opjose says. I have mine intall in a H9 harrier .46. I have repostion the gas tank, bought a new gas tank assuming it was not maintaining pressure. I am open for any new ideas as well. I am in the porcess of buying a an ASP 80 four stroke for the Harrier .46.
My only concern being new to four strokes is, will this be enough power for this size plane?
I am having the same problem with my EVolution .61. It won't start inverted, but when you turn it right side up it will run and transition like opjose says. I have mine intall in a H9 harrier .46. I have repostion the gas tank, bought a new gas tank assuming it was not maintaining pressure. I am open for any new ideas as well. I am in the porcess of buying a an ASP 80 four stroke for the Harrier .46.
My only concern being new to four strokes is, will this be enough power for this size plane?
#40
Senior Member
My Feedback: (14)
RE: Evolution engine
ORIGINAL: opjose
Yeah, I agree.
I fought with the 1.00NX for MANY MANY hours (6+) trying to get it tuned.
In the end it was the collar itself that caused me so much grief. Even when loose it was preventing the needle from traveling in, failing to allow me to lean the engine out properly.
I thought that it was a lousy engine. Instead it's just a lousy safeguard that MUST be defeated...
I hope that the limiters get redesigned or eliminated on the next go around.
Yeah, I agree.
I fought with the 1.00NX for MANY MANY hours (6+) trying to get it tuned.
In the end it was the collar itself that caused me so much grief. Even when loose it was preventing the needle from traveling in, failing to allow me to lean the engine out properly.
I thought that it was a lousy engine. Instead it's just a lousy safeguard that MUST be defeated...
I hope that the limiters get redesigned or eliminated on the next go around.
---------------
So, then, I'm NOT wrong? <G>
Ed Cregger
#41
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blackfoot ,
ID
Posts: 2,251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Evolution engine
I am having a time with my Evo .61 inverted on a H9 P-51. Any suggestions?
Its a safe bet your tank is to high for a inverted engine in that plane.
You can see where the center line of the tank is in relationship to the center of the spray bar,if its like i'm thinking it won't be hard to spot .I don't now if theres enough room to lower the tank down to the center or not, but it needs to be as close as possible, or maybe just a little below.
You may need to remount the engine sideways to achive this if theres not enough room to lower the tank .As a rule unless I'm doing a kit build I won't go with a inverted engine most of the time, and it just depends on the airframe as to weather I can get the tank on the center or not.
P.S. theres a thread on this very same thing Sorry I don't have the addy but it talks about how 80%of the companys are making planes and putting the tanks in the wrong place height wise,unless you go to a side mounted engine.
Good luck let us know.
#42
RE: Evolution engine
In each case where I've had an inverted engine problem, the "problem" turned out to be tuning or a not fully broken in engine.
I've never had to invert or adjust the tank with my tail draggers to compensate.
Once I had the plane properly tuned siphoning would occur very slowly to the point that it is a non-issue with the throttle at idle.
Remember to tune the engine with approximately 1/3 of a tank of fuel, and not with a full tank.
I've never had to invert or adjust the tank with my tail draggers to compensate.
Once I had the plane properly tuned siphoning would occur very slowly to the point that it is a non-issue with the throttle at idle.
Remember to tune the engine with approximately 1/3 of a tank of fuel, and not with a full tank.
#45
Senior Member
My Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Bruce,
MS
Posts: 1,516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Evolution engine
I would like to know the performance of the 100 Evolution on 14X6 or 13X6? I may have overlooked the figures in here some where but what are the numbers here on these great engines?
#46
RE: Evolution engine
ORIGINAL: Cyberwolf
Well you run your tanks anyway you want ,I'll put mine on centerline of the spray bar thank you.
Well you run your tanks anyway you want ,I'll put mine on centerline of the spray bar thank you.
The point being that in many cases where the centerline position is being looked at to cure engine running problems, there is usually something else at work causing the engine to run unreliably.
e.g. the engine tuning must be looked at.
The variance from the spray bar centerline is often not that far out of spec that there should be such a dramatic difference with the engine sitting on the ground and running it up.
#47
RE: Evolution engine
ORIGINAL: blw
Why are you arguing this, Ed? It makes no sense. Of course they are preset in some way. Saitos come preset too. Think about it.
Why are you arguing this, Ed? It makes no sense. Of course they are preset in some way. Saitos come preset too. Think about it.
Pete
#48
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blackfoot ,
ID
Posts: 2,251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Evolution engine
The point being that in many cases where the centerline position is being looked at to cure engine running problems, there is usually something else at work causing the engine to run unreliably
With your vast knowledge of engines and aircraft my 40 plus years don't stack up I guess?
Like I said run those tanks to high or low then do some inverted flying or KE, Spins and blenders and see how long things work for ya.
Do you take off with only 1/3 of a tank of fuel also ?
Read any engine Manual they tell you to set the tank up on the centerline of the carb or Spray bar.
When the tanks positioned properly I find theres no need to use only part of a tank to tune my engines ,they run the same inverted upright on there side and so on while in the air.
#49
RE: Evolution engine
ORIGINAL: Cyberwolf
With your vast knowledge of engines and aircraft my 40 plus years don't stack up I guess?
With your vast knowledge of engines and aircraft my 40 plus years don't stack up I guess?
Doesn't a bit of maturity go with those "40 years" about such things, to not see everything as an affront?
I've stated that the majority of problems here where there are reported problems of the engine running unreliably, when the PLANE IS SITTING ON THE GROUND, involve tuning issues.
ORIGINAL: Cyberwolf
Like I said run those tanks to high or low then do some inverted flying or KE, Spins and blenders and see how long things work for ya.
Like I said run those tanks to high or low then do some inverted flying or KE, Spins and blenders and see how long things work for ya.
ORIGINAL: Cyberwolf
Do you take off with only 1/3 of a tank of fuel also ?
Do you take off with only 1/3 of a tank of fuel also ?
You get that right and the rest follows.
ORIGINAL: Cyberwolf
Read any engine Manual they tell you to set the tank up on the centerline of the carb or Spray bar.
When the tanks positioned properly I find theres no need to use only part of a tank to tune my engines ,they run the same inverted upright on there side and so on while in the air.
Read any engine Manual they tell you to set the tank up on the centerline of the carb or Spray bar.
When the tanks positioned properly I find theres no need to use only part of a tank to tune my engines ,they run the same inverted upright on there side and so on while in the air.
However the variance when the plane is sitting on the ground in most glow fueled planes is what, a whole whopping 1/4" between inverted and upright. Well within what those manuals cite.
If this is enough to throw off the engine, something else far more dramatic is to blame... such as the engine not being properly broken in or tuned. That must be addressed first.
#50
Senior Member
My Feedback: (14)
RE: Evolution engine
ORIGINAL: opjose
That's not what the advertizing says though...
I've got a nice brochure in front of me as I write this that states. and I'm quoting:
"Evolution's NT series of glow engines are top-of-the-line 2-strokes, guaranteed to start quickly and easily. Each offers preset SetRight (tm) needle valves that take all of the guesswork out of the operation. Every Evolution engines is test-run at the factory, so there is no set up or break in necessary when you pull it out of the box-you just install it and fly.".
Hmmm.... anyone EVER experience this?
ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger
That's what I said - there are no presets - in spite of their intentions.
That's what I said - there are no presets - in spite of their intentions.
I've got a nice brochure in front of me as I write this that states. and I'm quoting:
"Evolution's NT series of glow engines are top-of-the-line 2-strokes, guaranteed to start quickly and easily. Each offers preset SetRight (tm) needle valves that take all of the guesswork out of the operation. Every Evolution engines is test-run at the factory, so there is no set up or break in necessary when you pull it out of the box-you just install it and fly.".
Hmmm.... anyone EVER experience this?
--------------
The folks at Horizon are doing their best to universalize/simplify glow engine operation. This is a great intention. Unfortunately, it is not possible to do, UNLESS you burn the exact fuel they recommend, use their recommended glow plug, prop, etc. They are trying to make glow engines idiot proof. This isn't the first time that a manufactuer/distributor has taken a crack at this goal. However, physics, being what they are, eventually creep in and spoil the party for such folks, even though their intentions are quite laudable.
I will say that for a given set of circumstances, their idea will work for many folks. Folks who would otherwise be better off flying electric models, but folks none the less. The problem with the rest of us who are trying to help out is when the beginner argues back and quotes the Horizon literature as though it is Gospel. <G>
Ed Cregger