K&B 45 pylon or DF?
02-05-2007, 07:22 AM
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RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
well Dar that is food for thought...not exactly sure how this engine will be used either DF or propped
I am toying with the idea of building a ducted fan /diamond dust ..
even though it doesn't sound like I will get any longevity out of this engine IF I run it at full tilt..but I got to tell you ..that sure sounds sweet to me
maybe I should think about converting it to have inflight mixture control???hmmm something to think about
I am toying with the idea of building a ducted fan /diamond dust ..
even though it doesn't sound like I will get any longevity out of this engine IF I run it at full tilt..but I got to tell you ..that sure sounds sweet to me
maybe I should think about converting it to have inflight mixture control???hmmm something to think about
02-05-2007, 10:12 PM
#28
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RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
I had 10 of the 6.5 Klatter and Bangs for pylon. Four were setup by Lee with freeporting, and a couple by Wisniewski. The Wisniewski engines both came out of Bill's F40 Pink Lady after he had finished his runs at the Nats around the mid-80's. They were best running at around 21k on the ground, having a slightly longer stroke than the ST X-40's of the day.
One of the problems with the 6.5/7.5 was a band around the crank that helped stuff the case. They sometimes broke, and you ended up with an engine that looked like this example:
One of the problems with the 6.5/7.5 was a band around the crank that helped stuff the case. They sometimes broke, and you ended up with an engine that looked like this example:
02-06-2007, 12:35 AM
#29
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RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
HighPlains,
This broken con-rod is often considered a result of a very rich, four-cycling, cold break-in, that caused metal fatigue to set in.
Until racers learned this very tight ABC engine needed a slightly rich, two-cycling, correct working temperature break-in, that did not repeatedly shove the piston into the tight tapered-bore and yanking it back out; they were giving it that cold break-in (a la meehanite piston - steel sleeve engine) and this kept on happening...
Read what the late George Aldrich had to write about this.
This broken con-rod is often considered a result of a very rich, four-cycling, cold break-in, that caused metal fatigue to set in.
Until racers learned this very tight ABC engine needed a slightly rich, two-cycling, correct working temperature break-in, that did not repeatedly shove the piston into the tight tapered-bore and yanking it back out; they were giving it that cold break-in (a la meehanite piston - steel sleeve engine) and this kept on happening...
Read what the late George Aldrich had to write about this.
02-06-2007, 01:13 AM
#30
My Feedback: (1)
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
Well Dar,
I see a lot of mis-information on the net, and plenty of modelers that are clueless as to how to do almost anything. It's getting worse, not better.
This was just one engine of a bunch of racing engines that I ran and rebuilt many times. They were all broke in with light loads in a rich two cycle runing at RPM's above 20,000, first on 15% fuel, later on 65%. This particular engine failed in a race in Phoenix around '85 or'86. I was lucky in that it died when the model was only about 100 feet away, so I was able to hear it go.
The K&B's of that period were prone to breaking that ring around the crank, since it was heated in manufacturing to slide on to the crank, sometimes placing too much tension on the ring due to tollerance stackup when it cooled. But breakage was less if the rpm was held to a lower number than the ST X-40 of the same era. So we propped the K&B for 21-21.5K, while the Tigre was 22-22.5K, engines of this type on Formula One aircraft typically unloaded around 5K in the air.
BTW, I had not heard that Bill Wisneiwski had died. Is that confirmed, or just a rumor?
I see a lot of mis-information on the net, and plenty of modelers that are clueless as to how to do almost anything. It's getting worse, not better.
This was just one engine of a bunch of racing engines that I ran and rebuilt many times. They were all broke in with light loads in a rich two cycle runing at RPM's above 20,000, first on 15% fuel, later on 65%. This particular engine failed in a race in Phoenix around '85 or'86. I was lucky in that it died when the model was only about 100 feet away, so I was able to hear it go.
The K&B's of that period were prone to breaking that ring around the crank, since it was heated in manufacturing to slide on to the crank, sometimes placing too much tension on the ring due to tollerance stackup when it cooled. But breakage was less if the rpm was held to a lower number than the ST X-40 of the same era. So we propped the K&B for 21-21.5K, while the Tigre was 22-22.5K, engines of this type on Formula One aircraft typically unloaded around 5K in the air.
BTW, I had not heard that Bill Wisneiwski had died. Is that confirmed, or just a rumor?
02-06-2007, 02:40 AM
#31
Senior Member
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
HighPlains,
I know many modelers are and were misinformed.
The situation of the con-rod letting go was not related to the breakage of the ring around the crank-web.
And, BTW, that practice of 'sealing' the crank-web has not been determined to actually offer a measurable performance improvement.
Some manufacturers that offered it in the past, found it only caused increased crankshaft imbalance; i.e. when it was replaced by a normal, anchor shaped crank-web, the engine became smoother running. MVVS now have 'anchor shaped' crank-webs.
That rod breakage situation, as was described by Mr. Aldrich, Harry Higley and others, did not usually happen during the break-in, but rather when the engine was raced after being broken-in rich.
Aluminium is such a metal that does not stop getting weaker. Its strength just keeps on declining, until it disintegrates.
Steel has a terminal strength, which is reached after a few million cycles
I know many modelers are and were misinformed.
The situation of the con-rod letting go was not related to the breakage of the ring around the crank-web.
And, BTW, that practice of 'sealing' the crank-web has not been determined to actually offer a measurable performance improvement.
Some manufacturers that offered it in the past, found it only caused increased crankshaft imbalance; i.e. when it was replaced by a normal, anchor shaped crank-web, the engine became smoother running. MVVS now have 'anchor shaped' crank-webs.
That rod breakage situation, as was described by Mr. Aldrich, Harry Higley and others, did not usually happen during the break-in, but rather when the engine was raced after being broken-in rich.
Aluminium is such a metal that does not stop getting weaker. Its strength just keeps on declining, until it disintegrates.
Steel has a terminal strength, which is reached after a few million cycles
02-06-2007, 07:26 AM
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RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
Highplains, I have a question for you the photo I have shows a pump mounted on the rear, charley said that Bill Wisneiwski suggested removing the pump , and using a .60 pipe ..did your versions have pumps on the rear?
if so why remove it?
if so why remove it?
02-06-2007, 10:54 AM
#35
My Feedback: (1)
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
Pump on the rear of the engine? No, this engine was rear induction through a rotary disk that engaged the crank pin behind the rod. This disk was mounted on a pin and floated on a coat of raw fuel at a distance of around 0.003 inch. This was tight enough to seal when the piston was coming down pushing fuel/air up the ports, yet loose enough not to drag (too much). Above this distance, the needle got touchy, and you risked the disk wanting to chatter. As it was one area that required constant maintance, I have not been sad to see rear intake go away on many racing engines. Maintance consisted of removing the backplate and rotor, and resurfacing the alumimum over a piece of plate glass on 600 paper and oil.
These engines had a large venturi, too big for suction to work well, so they used crankcase pressure to the tank to push the fuel. While the needle valve was the primary method of controlling mixture, the real secret was tank position. With an new airplane, you would start test flying to both trim out the model, but to also fine tune where the tank was in relation to the venturi. If the tank was too high, the engine would richen up in the turns, too low and it would lean out. Since these engines burn around 3 oz. of fuel per minute (65% nitro), we used 10 oz tanks for a pretty short flight. About 3 oz. was used during engine start-up, and 3-4 for the racing heat, depending on how fast you were.
You had to fly fairly smoothly, otherwise a whoopie would kill the plug. Plugs were only good for one flight anyway, so in a season you would go several hundred glow plugs. To lower the wear on the heads, I used a die to chase the threads on the plugs.
High nitro is not forgiving, go too rich and you get smoked by the other airplanes, too lean and you melt the piston. The tuning of the engine was done with head shims and props based on what local conditions were. The best days were when the temps were in the 70's, the air pressure high, and the humidity was in the 30's.
These engines had a large venturi, too big for suction to work well, so they used crankcase pressure to the tank to push the fuel. While the needle valve was the primary method of controlling mixture, the real secret was tank position. With an new airplane, you would start test flying to both trim out the model, but to also fine tune where the tank was in relation to the venturi. If the tank was too high, the engine would richen up in the turns, too low and it would lean out. Since these engines burn around 3 oz. of fuel per minute (65% nitro), we used 10 oz tanks for a pretty short flight. About 3 oz. was used during engine start-up, and 3-4 for the racing heat, depending on how fast you were.
You had to fly fairly smoothly, otherwise a whoopie would kill the plug. Plugs were only good for one flight anyway, so in a season you would go several hundred glow plugs. To lower the wear on the heads, I used a die to chase the threads on the plugs.
High nitro is not forgiving, go too rich and you get smoked by the other airplanes, too lean and you melt the piston. The tuning of the engine was done with head shims and props based on what local conditions were. The best days were when the temps were in the 70's, the air pressure high, and the humidity was in the 30's.
02-06-2007, 06:18 PM
#36
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
Great info Bob [8D]
I have a NIB series 75 RIRE SRII 6.5 F-1 pylon engine like the one Bob shows in post #28...(bought in from Tower in '76 ) except mine has the earlier prop driver and doesn't have the crank band poking thru the side of the case!
Mine has the tightest piston/sleeve fit I have ever seen [X(] and I think that if it wasn't treated just right during break-in that it could break the rod...or something else?
Maybe that's where the stories started?
That's one reason it's still NIB...cuz I'm a little leery of running / ruining it. I also have heard of the early, very tight ones having the rod fail because of a too rich break in...and the instructions specifically warn of that. They tell you to run a cut down 9x6 and let it rev to somewhere around 20,000-22,000 during a rich 2 cycling break-in, and IIRC a "mild" fuel of 40% nitro
I have also heard stories of the crank-pin comming loose if you push them too hard?
I have a few FIRE 6.5's with pumps...but don't plan on pushing them to their max...just close to it.
I have a NIB series 75 RIRE SRII 6.5 F-1 pylon engine like the one Bob shows in post #28...(bought in from Tower in '76 ) except mine has the earlier prop driver and doesn't have the crank band poking thru the side of the case!
Mine has the tightest piston/sleeve fit I have ever seen [X(] and I think that if it wasn't treated just right during break-in that it could break the rod...or something else?
Maybe that's where the stories started?That's one reason it's still NIB...cuz I'm a little leery of running / ruining it. I also have heard of the early, very tight ones having the rod fail because of a too rich break in...and the instructions specifically warn of that. They tell you to run a cut down 9x6 and let it rev to somewhere around 20,000-22,000 during a rich 2 cycling break-in, and IIRC a "mild" fuel of 40% nitro
I have also heard stories of the crank-pin comming loose if you push them too hard?
I have a few FIRE 6.5's with pumps...but don't plan on pushing them to their max...just close to it.
02-06-2007, 07:44 PM
#37
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RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
That great news Tom. Take a WOOD prop 9-6 and cut it down to 8" to start. Use a good metal mount for the engine, though they might be hard to find due to length needed for the rear intake. I've still got an old CB mount that's tapped for a 6.5 if you need one. You have to open the mounting holes in the engine lugs for a 6-32 bolt. It's also good if you tap the front of a mount (x2) and tie it into the fuselage as well for an extra rigid mount.
Some people use a propane torch to preheat the head to loosen the piston/sleeve fit just before starting. I really don't think this is necessary, since it comes up to heat quickly when started. If it is loose enough that a starter will turn it over, it's fine to just start it and run.
You should get good engine life on 40% fuel. Not to sure how the plug will fare, that depends upon the head clearance. You should also try using a tetra style tank, as that will help prevent lean runs. Use a good fuel like Powermaster with it's blend of oils. When you fly it, try to be the only engine in the air or ground that running so you can hear it. Don't fly to the end of the tank, but rather use a shutoff to pinch off the line. Listen carefully to the engine in the air. As long as it sound sweet go ahead an run it, but if it starts to sound slight strained, kill the engine immediately.
Flying prop depends on what you are going to fly. We used Rev-up 8 3/4 x 8 pylon props cut down to 8 1/4" and thinned with the tips pitched up to 8 1/4 to 8 1/2" pitch. Wood props are very safe if you flex the blades to test their strength. Hold the hub and push and pull each blade at least a 1/4" to 3/8". A good blade will flex, a bad one breaks. Better in your hands than on the engine.
Some people use a propane torch to preheat the head to loosen the piston/sleeve fit just before starting. I really don't think this is necessary, since it comes up to heat quickly when started. If it is loose enough that a starter will turn it over, it's fine to just start it and run.
You should get good engine life on 40% fuel. Not to sure how the plug will fare, that depends upon the head clearance. You should also try using a tetra style tank, as that will help prevent lean runs. Use a good fuel like Powermaster with it's blend of oils. When you fly it, try to be the only engine in the air or ground that running so you can hear it. Don't fly to the end of the tank, but rather use a shutoff to pinch off the line. Listen carefully to the engine in the air. As long as it sound sweet go ahead an run it, but if it starts to sound slight strained, kill the engine immediately.
Flying prop depends on what you are going to fly. We used Rev-up 8 3/4 x 8 pylon props cut down to 8 1/4" and thinned with the tips pitched up to 8 1/4 to 8 1/2" pitch. Wood props are very safe if you flex the blades to test their strength. Hold the hub and push and pull each blade at least a 1/4" to 3/8". A good blade will flex, a bad one breaks. Better in your hands than on the engine.
02-07-2007, 10:39 AM
#38
My Feedback: (21)
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
High Plains, Just wondering if you raced pylon in NMPRA district 9 in the late 70's and early 80's. Three of us guys in Pueblo were active in the area in that time frame and maybe we bumped into you. I always liked the K&B 6.5 engines and still have 3 or 4 of them around including one of the Clarence Lee engines with the free porting. Every once in a while I pull out my old DeNight and fly it just to show the newer members of our club what a really fast airplane is. It is really funny to see the runways clearout when the engine comes up on the pipe. Some of the 3Ders really think they have powerful planes, HA HA! Most of our guys have never seen anything with the power to weigth ratio of a real F-1. I also have one of those 6.5 ducted fan engines which I put on a Q500, goes pretty good to say the least. Probably not in the class of a Nelson but it will eat Rossi's alive!. At our altitude, 5,000 feet we proped engines to turn 21,500 on the ground and unload in the air probably to 23 or so. We used reworked rev up and prather props. Times for the full course were in the 1.13s or so in 1982. Not bad. One funny thing, the best K&B I ever had was bought stock from Hobby Barn in Arizona, It was just one of those perfect engines. Was tight as a tick and squeeked like crazy when you turned it over. I had one of the Samauri racing guys comment on how good the engine ran, could not believe it was box stock. Never got another one like it. Ah nostalgia!
Larry
Larry
02-07-2007, 12:55 PM
#39
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RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
I was living in California when racing F1, for about a decade starting in 1984. I raced F1 in California, Washington, British Columbia, Nevada, Arizonia, Indiana, Massachusetts, Virgina, Texas, and Nebraska. One year I attended 11 contests (23 days of competition), a bit more than 25,000 miles of travel, so it is possible that we might have crossed if you went to the Nat's, or NMPRA championships or the big race in Arizonia in the winter. I did most of my test flying at a place call Crow's Landing at a little used Naval Air Station. Miles of concrete, it was a 200 mile round trip, which we typically did about a 6-8 times a year for all day flight testing. My favorite time was when a couple of guys were telling the locals how fast their ducted fan jobs were (it's always 200 mph!). They shut up and packed their gear after we flew a Formula One and showed what 175+ really looks like.
My favorite airplane was the Stinger, but I had a Denight or two, LR-1, Toni, El Bandito (also a favorite), Estrillita, and a number of others that have faded into the mists. Here is a Stinger in primer:
My favorite airplane was the Stinger, but I had a Denight or two, LR-1, Toni, El Bandito (also a favorite), Estrillita, and a number of others that have faded into the mists. Here is a Stinger in primer:
02-07-2007, 01:19 PM
#40
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
Guys...I'm wondering about something here...
I am putting a 6.5 DF FIRE (has the backplate pump ) on a modified Sonic 500 (I clipped the wing tips off and changed them to something like the unlimited Reno racers are using, like the 1:1 Dago Red )
I'm wondering about the tank though? Should I use a stock tank with the pump? Should I use a "bubbless" tank? Will a bubbless tank work with the pump? Can I use a bubbless tank without exh. pressure and use the pump?[sm=confused.gif]
What would be the best way to hook it up with the least risk of a lean run...considering it has the big bore "pump" Perry carb?
I am putting a 6.5 DF FIRE (has the backplate pump ) on a modified Sonic 500 (I clipped the wing tips off and changed them to something like the unlimited Reno racers are using, like the 1:1 Dago Red )
I'm wondering about the tank though? Should I use a stock tank with the pump? Should I use a "bubbless" tank? Will a bubbless tank work with the pump? Can I use a bubbless tank without exh. pressure and use the pump?[sm=confused.gif]
What would be the best way to hook it up with the least risk of a lean run...considering it has the big bore "pump" Perry carb?
02-07-2007, 01:34 PM
#41
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
Love those stories [8D]
We used to have a lot of guys with ducted fan jobs out here at Griffiss...the Air Force left in '95, and we flew there until '02...
we had 10,000' X 200' wide concrete to fly from, until the "Business" part of "Griffiss Business and Technology Park" took it from us [:@] (oh well, such is the price of progress I guess?! )
A lot of the DF guys thought they had fast airplanes, but I think they just sounded fast...engines screaming their guts out but actual airspeed was not that impressive IMO.
We used to have a lot of guys with ducted fan jobs out here at Griffiss...the Air Force left in '95, and we flew there until '02...
we had 10,000' X 200' wide concrete to fly from, until the "Business" part of "Griffiss Business and Technology Park" took it from us [:@]
(oh well, such is the price of progress I guess?! ) A lot of the DF guys thought they had fast airplanes, but I think they just sounded fast...engines screaming their guts out but actual airspeed was not that impressive IMO.
02-07-2007, 01:41 PM
#42
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
Bob, sorry...forgot at say thanks for the offer of the engine mount![X(][8D] Much appreciated!
Do you think the APC D-1 hub pylon props are strong enough? I don't see very many carbon props available?
They'd need some clipping to get them to an acceptable dia. for the 6.5's r.p.m. range though wouldn't they?
Have Blue...hope I didn't hijack your thread? This info should be good for your application(s ) too though?
Much appreciated!Do you think the APC D-1 hub pylon props are strong enough? I don't see very many carbon props available?
They'd need some clipping to get them to an acceptable dia. for the 6.5's r.p.m. range though wouldn't they?
Have Blue...hope I didn't hijack your thread? This info should be good for your application(s ) too though?
02-07-2007, 01:49 PM
#43
My Feedback: (1)
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
I have no idea on the pump, never used one.
Ducted fans have surface skin drag on the inside and the outside, so the airplane looks to the air like it is about twice as big as it really is. Anyway it is an uphill struggle.
That 1:13 time in the early 80's is not bad, especially if at altitude in Pueblo. That would be under 1:10 at sea level. My best slow time was 1:14 for 11 laps, but I had a few 1:10's taking off fourth and at couple different Nats held the fast time for a day. Shadel had a better (deeper) engine box than I did.
Ducted fans have surface skin drag on the inside and the outside, so the airplane looks to the air like it is about twice as big as it really is. Anyway it is an uphill struggle.
That 1:13 time in the early 80's is not bad, especially if at altitude in Pueblo. That would be under 1:10 at sea level. My best slow time was 1:14 for 11 laps, but I had a few 1:10's taking off fourth and at couple different Nats held the fast time for a day. Shadel had a better (deeper) engine box than I did.
02-07-2007, 02:37 PM
#44
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RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
ORIGINAL: proptop
Have Blue...hope I didn't hijack your thread? This info should be good for your application(s ) too though?
Have Blue...hope I didn't hijack your thread? This info should be good for your application(s ) too though?
02-07-2007, 03:47 PM
#45
My Feedback: (1)
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
can't say on the APC D-1 pylon props. On a Quickie they never see above 22K in the air, while you want to turn 21K on the ground. Send an email to Fred Burgdorf at APC, and ask him if he thinks it would be safe cut down to 8 or 8 1/4". On the other hand, he makes a Q40 carbon prop than is good to the rpm you want. But if your airframe is very draggy, you will spin it, but not go anywhere. Like that video of Budman's quickie. A great example of not hooking up.
If you throw a blade, lots of things can happen, not very often are they good things. I've exploded three props, twice on the ground during runup, but have been lucky. A buddy wasn't and took a chunk to the eye. He was wearing heavy sunglasses, but his eye is nearly ruined. It wasn't a APC or wood prop, and the engine not that powerful, but still...
I've been cleaning and rebuilding some ST X-40's for the past week. I have nearly enough parts for eight engines, with most in full race trim and just set aside when I bought 4 Nelson F1 engine. Two were fully broken in ready to race, three now have new piston/sleeves (but two of them are stock ST sleeves), and a rest are built with refitted pistons into good sleeves. I'm short a couple of backends and rotors, but expect at least 5 or 6 to be pretty decent.
Something to run in a fast sport model or Denight that is half built in the basement. The Stinger is setup for a Nelson. The bud that took it in the eye, is splashing a Prather Toni that I have and maybe a Denight as well. For those who have never heard the term "splashing", it means waxing up a glass fuselage and using it as a plug to make a mold from. These old F1 designs are hard to come by, and when the event ended a decade ago, everyone was too exhausted to think about saving a lot of it. Plus many of the old crowd are just gone now.
If you throw a blade, lots of things can happen, not very often are they good things. I've exploded three props, twice on the ground during runup, but have been lucky. A buddy wasn't and took a chunk to the eye. He was wearing heavy sunglasses, but his eye is nearly ruined. It wasn't a APC or wood prop, and the engine not that powerful, but still...
I've been cleaning and rebuilding some ST X-40's for the past week. I have nearly enough parts for eight engines, with most in full race trim and just set aside when I bought 4 Nelson F1 engine. Two were fully broken in ready to race, three now have new piston/sleeves (but two of them are stock ST sleeves), and a rest are built with refitted pistons into good sleeves. I'm short a couple of backends and rotors, but expect at least 5 or 6 to be pretty decent.
Something to run in a fast sport model or Denight that is half built in the basement. The Stinger is setup for a Nelson. The bud that took it in the eye, is splashing a Prather Toni that I have and maybe a Denight as well. For those who have never heard the term "splashing", it means waxing up a glass fuselage and using it as a plug to make a mold from. These old F1 designs are hard to come by, and when the event ended a decade ago, everyone was too exhausted to think about saving a lot of it. Plus many of the old crowd are just gone now.
02-07-2007, 04:18 PM
#46
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
Will have to get in contact with Fred at APC, thanks The safe operation of such a high revving engine is first and formost in my mind!
I am in the process of designing and gathering the materials to build what will basically look like an overgrown C/L speed ship powered by a .40 size F-1 pylon engine.
I am putting together an order for some NiChrome wire (for one thing ) so I can experiment with the cutting of foam wing cores.
One of the guys in our club used to fly a Prather 'Lil Tony and it was powered by a Prather prepared X40 [X(][8D]
I saw him fly it in the mid 70's and will never forget the sight and sound of that airplane [8D]
The safe operation of such a high revving engine is first and formost in my mind!I am in the process of designing and gathering the materials to build what will basically look like an overgrown C/L speed ship powered by a .40 size F-1 pylon engine.
I am putting together an order for some NiChrome wire (for one thing ) so I can experiment with the cutting of foam wing cores.
One of the guys in our club used to fly a Prather 'Lil Tony and it was powered by a Prather prepared X40 [X(]
[8D]I saw him fly it in the mid 70's and will never forget the sight and sound of that airplane [8D]
02-07-2007, 11:25 PM
#47
My Feedback: (1)
RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
I've got a 1000 foot roll of wire stashed away for cutting foam. It's pretty cheap in bulk. But for $20 or so you can get CNC cut wing cores. I hate making templates to cut foam unless I'm cutting several dozen. Here is one source:
http://www.matneymodels.com/
He also has some Q40 kits built the traditional way for a good price.
http://www.matneymodels.com/
He also has some Q40 kits built the traditional way for a good price.
02-08-2007, 03:17 AM
#48
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RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
hey proptop be sure to drop back and give us the low down on APC D1 props cause thats what I have at the moment too apart from some top flyte wooden pylon props ..but don't know how good they are, and I wouldn't want my new acquisition to throw a blade...or worse!!!!!!
can anyone give me a recommendation on what pipe to use on this engine???
can anyone give me a recommendation on what pipe to use on this engine???
02-08-2007, 10:14 AM
#49
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RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
high plains. Dave Schadel smoked a lot of people, flew the best course I ever saw. Dub Jett was probably the best flier in the Southwest, raced with him a lot, Never was that competitive but still enjoyed watching. I am reminded how expensive it was to fly F-1. Just fuel and plugs would bankrupt me now! Those who never flew F-1 can not understand how well the planes fly, we always say "The best flying plane you would ever fly, had to be to fly 200 at ten feet! I now fly giant warbirds and sometimes think that they use a lot of fuel but then I remember a F-1 used 8 oz's of 60% nitro and flew for maybe 2 minutes! That was around a buck fifty a minute in the early 80's plus two bucks for the plug and more if you broke the prop! I saw that someone asked about used F-1's and how scarce they are, I can't remember a race without several totals, a rather high mortality sport. One other thing, one of our club members had his plane judged #1 twice at the NMPRA champs, I wish current modelers could see the quality of the finishes on most of the F-1s at the Champs, spectacular to say the least!
larry
larry
02-08-2007, 04:22 PM
#50
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RE: K&B 45 pylon or DF?
There were a lot of very good fliers in F1, quite a few even better than Shadel. Some didn't have the funds to leave their local area, so they didn't go to the Nationals. It wouldn't have mattered very much anyway, because Pylon racing in those days had a system that corupted the results of big contests. There are many dark secrets to the true nature of Formula One racing that few were aware of that created the perception that the racers on one team were much better than the rest of the pack.
A typical run cost about $6-7 for fuel and plug, until the Nelson plug upped the figure to about $8, and then the Globee to about $10. Throw in a prop every once in a while, and an a piston/sleeve/head, bearings and a rod now and again, it could really add up. Break two to four airplanes a year, with almost total loss of receivers and batteries (always), servo repair, spinners and wheels. Ca-ching, ca-ching. Throw in motel rooms and transportation by van and airliner.
But the way these flew. Totally Ballistic. Only military Jets out climb them.
A typical run cost about $6-7 for fuel and plug, until the Nelson plug upped the figure to about $8, and then the Globee to about $10. Throw in a prop every once in a while, and an a piston/sleeve/head, bearings and a rod now and again, it could really add up. Break two to four airplanes a year, with almost total loss of receivers and batteries (always), servo repair, spinners and wheels. Ca-ching, ca-ching. Throw in motel rooms and transportation by van and airliner.
But the way these flew. Totally Ballistic. Only military Jets out climb them.