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ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

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Old 11-25-2012, 11:56 PM
  #1476
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

putting those valves in is really a pain... but it is done. I wanted to build a tool for the job at first but I got it done with a wooden stick in under the time I would have needed for the tooling.

Thanks for the offer, but those valves are definitely NOT coming out again.

I am really intrigued by that polishing idea. Even knowing I will never achieve Toms standard, it will still make the engine look much better.

That small part was done with a dremel and a felt wheel. I guess I will modify my grinder to become a buff when I get going. But first to make that engine work again.

Rev

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Old 11-26-2012, 04:52 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

Right, the next piece of the puzzle arrived. The Cam gear is here. Cant post a picture though. 500 error...

A bit of trivia: This is really becoming a very international engine.

In it there are parts from:
(in Alphabetical Order)

Austria (Glow, Screws, Clips)
Australia (Cam Followers)
China (a lot )
Germany (Cam Gear)
Japan (Plugs)
United Kingdom (Crankshaft, Cams, Rockers, ...)

Rev






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Old 11-26-2012, 05:14 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

as long as the internal parts dont go to war with one another you will be fine!
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:54 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul


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ORIGINAL: Carosel43

as long as the internal parts dont go to war with one another you will be fine!
Hahahahaha! I just about spit up my morning coffee over that one Jon!!
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:42 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

REV..
Im glad it finally landed..Aust Post was correct in saying 3 months...

I dont see the best part??? the ring!

The orange tape is HK wing tape..Have rolls of it...

That case brng was the start of all my problems..wouldn't come out..
The engine has done a lot of run time..On the bench was well over an hour. I too was surprised at the clys.
Were the valve guides ok with the new valves.

Oh and the OS had its 1st problem on the weekend..The manifold welding broke off in mid flight...Have some good vid footage of it hitting the prop during flight...

I ran up the radial replacement engine in the Gillmore not the same...
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:20 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jaav

REV..
Im glad it finally landed..Aust Post was correct in saying 3 months...

I dont see the best part??? the ring!

The orange tape is HK wing tape..Have rolls of it...

That case brng was the start of all my problems..wouldn't come out..
The engine has done a lot of run time..On the bench was well over an hour. I too was surprised at the clys.
Were the valve guides ok with the new valves.

Oh and the OS had its 1st problem on the weekend..The manifold welding broke off in mid flight...Have some good vid footage of it hitting the prop during flight...

I ran up the radial replacement engine in the Gillmore not the same...
Ah, yes, the ring. I have left that packed in the box. It will turn up eventually

Problem with that tape is, when you pull it off, the orange stays [:@] Remember the well packed pistons

Bearings gave me a headache too...

Valve guides and valves are perfect. Just needed new springs, retainers and rings.

Really sorry about that manifold... welded that years ago. Hope not much damage?!

Rgds,
Rev

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Old 11-26-2012, 12:34 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

small progress today. literarily small

New cam followers cost about 70 USD. incl. shipping. Not good.

I measured the good ones on my radial and they are 3,5mm x 16,5mm.

While pondering what to do I was drilling the teststand backplate for the Evo 777... Drilling... drilling? drilling!!

Hmmm...

3,5mm... ? 3,5mm!



16,8mm and CUT!



Looking good



Now we need to grund a radius into the top... Quick look in the "Dremel Accesoir" Box... Perfect!



Works very well, just a bit noisy and needed quite some lubricant.



...and a perfect fit. It is still oversize in length so I can enlargen the surface at the bottom so the cams do not get so worn.




Now then, ten 3,5mm HSS Drills in german IBEY are 5 Euros incl. shipping.

Gentlemen, I have my cam followers. German drills cant be worse than the chinese steel...




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Old 11-26-2012, 12:37 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

Ah, and to prove JAAV was right... heres a comparison of the pickled cam gear and the new one. GEEEEEZ...



GN8 all,
Rev
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:35 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

Kmot, i am glad i gave you a chuckle! sorry if you did spit coffee everywhere though. i will try and keep my british humour to myself next time

Rev, the drill was a great idea and the material must be better than the chinese monkey metal. and regarding the pitted cam gear im sure it would still work even though it looks unhealthy...unless its gone brittle or something. It would be interesting to put an os/saito/laser crank in the JAAV's caustic juice and see what happens. It could just be crap quality steel causing the problem. In fact a blunt hss drill would do for a test.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:07 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

ok, 10 HSS Drills for EUR 1,99. Ordered 30

On another note: Tom and I had a similar idea. I spoke to my brother in law last weekend (he's a fitter) and we spoke about hardening small steel parts. The basic idea is to oil harden those cam rings. Not very difficult to do and done right, it would harden those rings by quite some N/mm².

I would like to try with those pitted cam rings first as a proof of concept.

Biggest Problem is, I do not know what old motorcycle parts those cams where made of so oil hardening may or may not be the correct way to go. Any ideas on that?


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Old 11-27-2012, 12:24 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

As long as both materials end up slightly different hardness you should be fine from a wear point of view. what you could try is to center punch the dead one and see what mark is left, then have a go at hardening it, and then punch it again to see the difference. We use oil to harden our pushrods. The rods are normal piano wire (pretty tough in the first place) which is finish turned on the end to give the ball and accurate length. We then oil harden them. As its not my job to do that im not sure exactly how we do it but i will ask and get back to you


EDIT:

Ok, had a chat with the guys and as i kinda expected they would not recommend using oil to harden a part like that. Also by heating it up you may remove any hardening done by the factory. the best betwould beto do as we do and get it done by a specialist hardening company. That way you can get them to harden your drill blanks at the same time. The problem is however as you harden the cams you may have to harden the drive gear and crank to prevent wear moving down the line. or were you just hoping to toughen up the rings? If you do decide to try oil dont use acetylene as you will make the parts brittle due to the addition of extra carbon. Propane works much better. As a measure of how hard they are now if you run a small swiss file over it can you get the file to bite? if not then its pretty hard anyway and i would leave it alone
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:01 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

basically hardening (as I remember from the workshop at school) is always the same.

Heat the metal to about 1450°F and quench it in Oil.

When its cooled, reheat it to 320°F in an oven and let it slowly cool.

Voilá.

Would be great to know how the guys at laser do it. Only problem is, that the Pianowire will be a different type of steel...

rev
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:07 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

Hi Rev, see edit to my previous post! we get ALL of our parts hardened by a hardening company, i just so happen to know the pushrods were oil hardened. Everything else is case or nitrile hardened and is very tough!
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:05 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

It's been a LONG time but when I used to work in a forging shop we hardened a lot of stuff, Case hardening would be the best for gears IMHO because it gives it a hard surface but not the brittle cracking of gears that full hardening will. Either way after hardening it will need some annealing to relieve the stress from the hardening. One other thing to watch out for is if there is any stress in the material when hardening it WILL warp the piece being hardened. Most manufactured gears that get hardened are pre machined before it gets hardened then after gets ground to finished tolerances to remove any of the warping from the heating of the part. So I again I think case hardening is the best bet, Less chance of warping (lower temps used) and a little easier than oil quenching the stuff. I don't remember all the details but we put the parts in carbon wrapped in foil then into a furnace.

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Old 11-27-2012, 02:12 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

ok, due to my limited possabilities and the fact, that the engine will not run 24/7 I guess I will look into oil hardening.

Should it not work I will not harden the stuff at all and check the Parts for wear after 30 Minutes runtime.



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Old 11-27-2012, 03:23 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

Well I can say that if the case hardening is too hard I have a bottle of this good cleaner that will erase the hardness.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:41 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

it will also erase the parts!

Rev if you run it as is any wear will be obvious as the valves will constantly need adjusting, my 400 was hopeless but as many have said it took a little while for it to settle after i rebuilt it. now i just leave them alone.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:47 AM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

jaav: What exactly was the stuff you soaked those parts in?

I have a suspicion my cam lobe rings were not hardened correctly. I have new cam rings on the way. I am considering oil hardening them.

Long trivia story:

After not being able to make ends meet as an aircraft mechanic due to ridiculous low wages prevailing at the time, I got work at the Los Angeles metro bus organization that provides public transportation. Made a career of it.

The buses have big axles that are held on by 8 studs. It is a common occurrence for them to start to loosen and then the axle cap starts to wiggle about. We know they have loosened because we see diff oil leaking onto the wheel. So into the shop it goes and often times the studs snap off because they have been taking a pounding by the axles head or cap. Trying to center punch a broken, jagged stud was always near impossible. Drilling an off-center hole and then using an extractor usually ended up with a broken extractor, inside a broken stud, inside a hub. Not good.

So I made a tool. I took a Grade 8 bolt that was the same size as a axle stud and fit the hole snugly and chopped of the end, ground a point on it and then heated it cherry red with an oxy/acetylene torch and then dropped it into a bucket of 30 Wt. motor oil. That my friends is how I do oil hardening.

That center punch I made, did perfect 'center' punches on those broken jagged studs and I used it dozens and dozens and dozens of times over the years and the point hardly dulled.

Point is, don't 'over think' oil hardening. It's not rocket science.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:40 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

new there is ingenuity!

Also, just to clarify my comments regarding the use of acetylene do depend on the steel you are working with. if you are using a high carbon steel already you will add more if using acetylene and risk making the part brittle on the teeth as they are very thin. i would use the dead one as a test piece and see what you get
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:35 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

Tom: Sounds pretty basic. I have, however, decided against it. I did a test on the old and new cams. Dropped a quite new center punch from 1 meter directly on them (through a tube). The punch made quite a mark on the old cam rings and was still sharp. On the new you can see the mark, but you cannot feel it. the punch is now blunt. Maybe Sanye has changed the hardening process.

Got some progress in today. Assembled the front housing with the new bearings and all. really looks great with that shiny new crankshaft



Stuck the back casing on just for the hell of it... I can already hear those cylinders growling.



Well, now I have to wait.

- Forgot to order the master rod bearing. Its coming monday.
- Waiting for those drills to make cam followers, should arrive tomorrow
- Piston rings from HK in the mail. Date of impact: ??

Have a great friday, y'all

Rev
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:48 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Reverend

The punch made quite a mark on the old cam rings and was still sharp. On the new you can see the mark, but you cannot feel it. the punch is now blunt. Maybe Sanye has changed the hardening process.

Good to know, thanks for doing the test.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:00 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

Anyone have a source for the exhaust headers? I had to cannibalize a couple from an O.S. but they are not of the same bend radius or length.

Bob
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:16 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

Try "Just Engines" in the UK. The part number is 400607.

If it were me, I would anneal some brass tube and make the header pipe myself.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:27 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul

And what would you do for the flange at the end of the tube?

By the way, thanks for the info, Tom.

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Old 11-29-2012, 11:45 PM
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Default RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Kmot

Try ''Just Engines'' in the UK. The part number is 400607.

If it were me, I would anneal some brass tube and make the header pipe myself.
Tom, what drawing is that? I don't know of an exploded view with red on it?

FWIW, my drawings also have two shims drawn under the cylinder head but my P.H. Radial does not have any, the ASP from Australia has one. I dont think Sanye would be so foresightful as to anticipate the different nitro levels used in different countries so any ideas why this is?

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