HornetFitter

My Feedback: (2)

I am in a bit of a bind... I have 10% Omega for my 2 stroke stuff and I was advised to run Cool Power 10% in my Saito FS72, after breaking it in with Omega (for the Castor content).

Lets have it! Opinions and general consensus please...

patrick181

Me personally....Never less than 20% nitro 18% oil, Prefer 30% for power and reliability.

Wildcat Helimix 30% or PowerMaster 20/20 exclusively.

XJet

Saito (as opposed to the North American distributor) *recommend* some castor in the fuels used with their engines.

Up to 4% castor will provide a very useful improvement in wear and corrosion protection without compromising any other aspect of the engine's performance or longevity.

Coolpower will most likely cause premature bearing failure due to corrosion, I would not recommend it.

rlmcnii

My Feedback: (3)

HornetFitter,

My Saitos all run on 15% Omega (a synthetic/castor blend) and do so very well. They would run well on 10% also.

mike109

I have some eight Saitos in my collection from 30 to 120 and after much experimentation have settled on a commercial fuel containing 10% nitro, 15% synthetic, 5% castor 70% methanol. Here in Australia, we don't have quite the range of pre-mixed fuels that you have in the US. I would be happy to use a little less castor (say 3 to 4 %) but this is not available. The 10% nitro fuel gives plenty of power, reasonably clean running and the protection of some castor without too much glaze or coke problems. There is no "best" fuel. It all depends on what "you" want/need from your engine. More nitro will give more power (up to a point) but will lead to higher fuel consumption. Less oil will lead to a little more power and a cleaner engine but will lead to higher wear. Castor is gunky but this is also its advantage. It sticks better to surfaces than synthetic and in extreme conditions it keeps lubricating after the synthetic has gone in a puff of smoke. I used to make my own fuel but these days I live where it is not easy to get the basic ingredients so I buy a commercial fuel that best approximates my needs. I also know it will be fresh as the local supplier turns his fuel over pretty quickly. I also use this same fuel in my (few) two strokes.

FlyingPilgrim

My Feedback: (26)

There is no reason you cannot use your 10% Omega in your Saito, which would save you from buying extra jugs for different engines. I used 10% Omega in my engines for a couple years, then switched to 15% Omega in attempt to get a little extra umph. Lots of guys claim X or Y or Z brand is the best, but bottom line is there are several that work great.

jessiej

My 72 has run well on a variety of fuels, but I always use some castor in the fuel.

jess

jaka

Hi!
Over here many use 10-15% all syntetic oil in their engines.

wcmorrison

My Feedback: (2)

I too use the same fuel in both 2 and 4 strokes and always with some Castor in it. I too recommend a blend lie Omega over Cool Power. You will certainly get a bit more power out of Cool Power because of the lower oil content and correspondingly increase in Methanol. But to me it is not worth the risks. Castor is the good stuff and does the job when others can not.

Its your engine, do what you want.

Cheers,

Chip

XJet

That's because the synthetics you use are *much* better than the average US-made synthetic. Like yourself, I us a hi-quality synthetic but I still add a little (2%) castor for old-time's sake (for a total of 12% lube by volume).

I wouldn't use Morgan's synthetic oil (CoolPower) or Klotz Techniplate without castor under any circumstances.

Joeburspi

I think you will be just fine runnig out your Omega I have run it in my 62a and all my Mags for quite a while I like it because it has a bit of castor in it. I only see a defferance in performance for 15% Omega to 30% fuels in small gains unless you compete its not worth the expence 15% Omega 17.95 30% Young Blood 30 bucks.
Buy them to fly them and don't sweat the small stuff

djlyon

Ya but you guys are big, big risk takers [)]

12xlr8

I must have another user name here, lol, but for some reason, I have too many hobbies, and I don't post often here, mostly just read it. I think my other hobbies are running low, and thier forums are in a lull, so I took a guess at my log-in, and apparenty, I have not posted at all here with this one, lol. But, It's time to start posting here, as the topics seem real good here, so guess I'm ready for a change of scenery. ....But, I guess I'm pretty much of a newbie.... here...lol...).

I just posted this in a YS thread, and it applies here too, so I'll just cut and paste most of it here. (Since it's a good mainstream topic, and that post I just made will never be seen by most in a YS off-chute thread).

As a long time YS (and 4 stroke guy), I actually save a couple/few bucks a gallon by mixing one gallon of Wildcat 20/20 with one gallon of Wildcat 15/18 (PURE synthetic), which of course leaves me with 17.5% nitro and 19% pure synthetic oil. (accurately mixed, and consistent too, because you are using full gallons of accurately mixed fuel). (The idea can be used with many brands, but the gist is the same, lots of synthetic oil for the 4 strokes.)

On a hot and humid day, you can get some much needed snap back, by dosing up to pure 20/20 without any re-tuning, but, by and large, you can't tell the difference in performace from straight 20/20, and it saves a few bucks a gallon. At 6 flights per gallon, it adds up money wise, but leaves you with plenty of oil (which YS crank cases like, as do all 4-strokes).

IMO, (after hundreds of teardowns) Castor has no place in a 4 stroke, it just gums up the valves, (and other things too). Modern synthetics have many times the lubrication, and corrosion prevention of castor. Castor is obsolete with 4 strokes IMO. I have found pure synthetic Wildcat leaves very little buildup on the heads and valves, and corrosion protection is the best I've ever found, and it shows every time I tear one down for maintenance. But most any pure synthetic is a good choice. I use the same mix in all my 4 strokes, big and small, and I never suffer failures, or gummy build-ups, nor failed glow plugs.

No after run needed IMO. Also, never run a YS (or any model engine, for that matter) dry. The "alcohol absorbing moisture" argument is moot IMO. The alcohol and moisture will evaporate from the hot engine quickly, and only the oil will remain behind to protect the engine. I think those who run engines dry, are foolish. It reaps havoc on the rotary valve (on a YS), (a little bit at a time) every time you run it dry, and leaves no oil behind for corrosion protection (far less anyway), which is a primary function of oil (corrsion protection). Burning it off dry every time you shut down the engine? Great idea?.....Negative. leave it sloppy and oily. The leftover nitro won't corrode it either if it's well oiled and the ingredients are quality and pure. If it's bone dry, then, yes it will.

Remember, manufacturers are playing to a world wide crowd. Many countries can't get nitro at all, or good synthetics, or whatever, so they have to leave the "castor oil" door cracked open, as well as nitro percentages open, not to mention cover their behinds with oil percentages, since qualitys vary widely. If they want to play to a world market, they have to cover all the bases. But if you are looking for the best performace.... Pure synthetic oils, with the purest ingredients will yield the longest life, and best performance, and the numbers can be skewed accordingly. IOW, you will never burn up a 4 stroke using a quality modern profesionially mixed 15/18 pure synthetic fuel, no matter what the book "recommends", unless you run it stupid lean, at twice the designed RPM's, and burn it off dry every time you shut it down. ....But in East Never-never land, where they mix fuel with wooden cups out on the sandy desert farmland, you will need that oil...... Know what I'm sayin? ....

Castor is so WW-I... High revving 2 strokes? ...maybe it still has some use, but even that is questionable... It's extinct in modern 4 strokes IMO.....Synthetic oils are superior in every measurable number across the board, castor is just a gummy, old school mess, that goobers up valve trains, and carbs and pumps. It's like "Leaded Fuel" for your car. It served a purpose "once upon a time", but I can't think of one useful quality it offers as an advantage over a modern synthetic in a modern 4 stroke R/C engine.

Nothing like diving in with a "sure to be" well opinionated, frequent, and hot topic?

XJet

If you do a film-strength comparison between Morgan's synthetic (Coolpower), Klotz synthetic (Techniplate) and castor, you'll find that the castor is superior. Klotz even go so far as to admit this in their own product tech sheet giving pure synth a lubrication value of "5" and castor a value of "10" (where bigger is better).

There are some synthetics that have a higher film strength than castor but you're unlikely to find them in many of the store-bought glow fuels sold in the USA (although Coopers uses a much higher-tech oil than most of the others and it's a match for the sophisticated European synths in this regard).

You talk about the YS, but it has a different lube-cycle to other 4-strokes. In the YS, the crankcase gets flooded with fresh fuel as it is part of the induction system. All other 4-strokes only ever see oil that is contaminated with combustion byproducts in the crankcase. This oil is transferred from the cylinder to the crankcase as a result of blowby of the piston/ring.

As a result, the demands on an oil and the type/percentage of oil in most regular 4-stroke model engines is somewhat different to that of a 2-stroke or YS engine.

And contrary to your observations, I've been running my 4-strokes for over three years with 3% castor in the fuel and my exhaust valves are clean as a whistle no carbon or varnish build up to speak of. They're a light brown color, that's all.

But, once again, I'm not using Klotz or Morgan's synthetics in the rest of my lube package so that may have some bearing on things.

And speaking of bearings... I suspect that the YS (because it has any blowby flushed out by each incoming charge of fresh air/fuel/oil) may be less prone to bearing corrosion than most other 4-stroke brands where the oil which pools in the crankcase may be quite acidic as a result of combustion byproducts.

The other aspect of more traditional 4-stroke designs (versus YS) is that because they do end up with a pool of oil in the crankcase, they can be run with far less oil than your YS or 2-stroke. In my experiments, the amount of oil that accumulates in the crankcase remains pretty constant, regardless of the oil ratios used in the fuel. There seems to be an equilibrium reached that maintains that level.

As a result, I run 12% oil in my 4-strokes (9% hi-quality synth, 3% castor) and even my Saitos (with their unbushed conrods) show no sign of wear even after many hours of running.

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

Just run your 10% Omega, it will run fine, and last long. Just tune it properly.

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

12xlr8,
I am not discounting your experience as your processes and products suit you. I will agree with XJet that the YS is substantially different in that the older engines induce the fuel charge into the crankcase, and because of that it will tend to pool unused fuel in the crankcase. Contrary to your opinion that the methanol will flash off, yes it will but if you are in a humid climate it will suck in and absorb as much moisture as it can while the methanol is flashing off. This leaves a pool of oil and water in the crankcase.

An engine run dry at the end of the day will have less wet fuel inside the crankcase, carburetor and combustion chamber. Even though there is no pool of wet fuel in there, there is a film of oil on everything inside the engine. The film of oil is what does the protecting, not the wet fuel. Run an engine on a stand, run it dry, take the backplate off, you'll see that the engine is far from dry (oil covers everything, even though its not dripping.

I have found that there is no better anti-corrosion inhibitor for methanol fuels than a little bit of castor. In a conventional 4-stroke where lubrication of the case is provided by ring blow-by, the last thing you want mixing with the combustion by-products is moisture which has been absorbed by wet methanol fuel left in the combustion chamber and intake runner. In these engines, a little bit of castor does an impecable job of providing a corrosion barrier between the metal and the contaminates in the blow-by oils. It only takes 2-4% castor to get these benefits in a 4-stroke fuel. Not only is 2-4% not enough to gum up anything in a properly tuned 4-stroke, it provides a little extra protection for the cam lobes, lifter faces and valve stems/guides.

As for modern synthetics, yes they will protect very well in extremely low concentrations unlike the 50 year old technology of the synthetics currently used in all the major brands in the US. In my own engines I make my flying fuels between 8 and 12 percent oil in them, and I abuse these engines just to find the breaking point. I do this on my synthetics only as I know the other common synthetics in the US will not hold up used in those low percentages.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Nothing will rust if it is truly 'bone dry', right?

ShortField

HUM, to start with I only have one 4-stroke engine it's a Saito 1.80. I've put all ceramic bearings into it when it was brand new, almost 4 years ago. I run Cool Power 15% heli through it and no problems. I do know of a few others that run 30% heli Cool Power through theirs.

Your question is " Best Fuel for 4-stroke glow engines "

I can't give you scientific data as to the "Best" fuel and how good it works inside of a 4-stroke engine. I think that most of us will look for reliability, long ware for low maintenance, power to spare, and economy for cost. My own personal opinion for me is that the Cool Power 15% and the 30% Heli works the best for me. It's cheaper for me to run the 15%.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Tailwheel Pilot

My Feedback: (2)

I wish I knew the answer. All I can say from my experience is I just had my saito 150 repaired by horizon. It broke a crank pin and the rod came through the case. They don't know what caused it but they fixed it for free. I run powermaster Y/S saito 20/20 fuel. I also use after run oil when done for the day. IT WAS FULL OF RUST!!! I also have a saito 100 that I run powermaster 15% with a blend of castor and synthetic with no problems yet. Kudos to Horizon.

ShortField

[X(] That's a nasty hole [X(]
I hope you were able to get your plane down safely. I've seen other engines with rust inside of them except those that have been using Cool Power. That the reason I've been using it. see is believing. A few of my friends have been doing the same thing you have with there engines and have also found rust inside I have to applaud Horizon for the way they DO take care of there customers

PoormansACE

I run omega 15% in my saito .82 & .30 yearround no problem.

Tailwheel Pilot

My Feedback: (2)

I was lucky and it happened on the bench. I had just set the top end 300 rpm rich of peak and BANG. The prop free wheeled to a stop. It had about 75 flights on it. I was over the 3 year warranty period so was very happy when it showed up fixed.