Saito 115 cam lubrication
03-08-2009, 10:11 PM
#251
RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: 42etus
Ouch, those YS mufflers are like $30+. I hope they made good on it. I'll give Horizon a call tomorrow. My guess is that they'll own up and send me replacements.
Paul
Ouch, those YS mufflers are like $30+. I hope they made good on it. I'll give Horizon a call tomorrow. My guess is that they'll own up and send me replacements.
Paul
03-09-2009, 12:15 AM
#252
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy
241 posts by all the same people most of which are cheerleaders without any Saito engines, not one person here has proven any failure with pics. One picture of pointy lifters was a high time engine. I have 19 Saitos as opposed to Kens 8 and no problems. Dar yiou have one Saito with no problems so what is your problem?
As to why our lube systems are so simple, simplicity is always more reliable than complicated is, simplicity is more economical to produce, and simplicity in this case is very effective. There are 1,000s of Saitos out there and only about 4 alledged problems here. Simplicity in this case works for, OS fourstrokes, Laser fourstrokes and Enya fourstrokes. Although I am short on examples of these having only one OS fourstroke, one Laser and 4 Enyas.
241 posts by all the same people most of which are cheerleaders without any Saito engines, not one person here has proven any failure with pics. One picture of pointy lifters was a high time engine. I have 19 Saitos as opposed to Kens 8 and no problems. Dar yiou have one Saito with no problems so what is your problem?
As to why our lube systems are so simple, simplicity is always more reliable than complicated is, simplicity is more economical to produce, and simplicity in this case is very effective. There are 1,000s of Saitos out there and only about 4 alledged problems here. Simplicity in this case works for, OS fourstrokes, Laser fourstrokes and Enya fourstrokes. Although I am short on examples of these having only one OS fourstroke, one Laser and 4 Enyas.
Wow, after all this Saito bashing Hobbsy, I'm glad you've thrown your hat in the Saito ring! You make me happy because I always wanted a Saito. I need another engine like a cat needs a side pocket, but . . . they're cute. Imagine nine of them sharing a common crank - wow, a baby Wright J-5 Whirlwind. Put that baby in a Spirit of St. Louis - the mind boggles. Hobbsy, when you get tired of hoarding all the beautiful little Saitos PM me.
Bill
03-09-2009, 01:01 AM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: 42etus
Well, Hobbsy and the rest of the nay sayers will probably say I'm nuts. After much thought about the subject I firmly believe that the Saitos with the rear vent do not get adequate lubrication in the cam area. That's what I believe, no one will convince me otherwise and I don't want to hear any more about your engines being fine, without problems. If you haven't had any problems with your rear vented Saitos, great, I'm happy for you. No problems is a good thing.
Having said all that, I tore down the 115 that Horizon had just repaired (see post#1). Well what do you know, even though they had replaced everything inside the cam box and test run the engine (with Omega 15%) the cam and lifters were absolutly bone dry. No lube what so ever. They hadn't pre-lubed the engine when they assembled it (very suprising) nor had any lube migrated to the cam when they test ran it (not suprising). That did it for me. Even though this engine is still under warranty, I installed a vent nipple just behind the front bearing. See photos. I'm 100% sure that will solve any cam lube issues that this engine may have. I haven't run the engine since the mod as the weather has been real lousy, but when it clears up I'll get out to the field and give her a go.
Paul
Well, Hobbsy and the rest of the nay sayers will probably say I'm nuts. After much thought about the subject I firmly believe that the Saitos with the rear vent do not get adequate lubrication in the cam area. That's what I believe, no one will convince me otherwise and I don't want to hear any more about your engines being fine, without problems. If you haven't had any problems with your rear vented Saitos, great, I'm happy for you. No problems is a good thing.
Having said all that, I tore down the 115 that Horizon had just repaired (see post#1). Well what do you know, even though they had replaced everything inside the cam box and test run the engine (with Omega 15%) the cam and lifters were absolutly bone dry. No lube what so ever. They hadn't pre-lubed the engine when they assembled it (very suprising) nor had any lube migrated to the cam when they test ran it (not suprising). That did it for me. Even though this engine is still under warranty, I installed a vent nipple just behind the front bearing. See photos. I'm 100% sure that will solve any cam lube issues that this engine may have. I haven't run the engine since the mod as the weather has been real lousy, but when it clears up I'll get out to the field and give her a go.
Paul
I have an Enya 1.55 with the "snout nipple" factory installed. I routing the nipple to my cam box and then from the cam box to the rocker cover and the oil and crankcase blowby can find it's way out - through the valve guides and tappets.
Bill
Bill
03-09-2009, 01:04 AM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: Ken6PPC
Well, at least Horizon Saito warranty services fixed your engine for you. I wish Ford had fixed my engine! I was ALWAYS adding oil to that truck, until the day I sold it.
Since they repaired your cam box and didn't even pre-lube it, one just MIGHT think the Saito service techs at Horizon aren't concerned about the so-called "lack of lubrication" in that the cam box. Perhaps it simply isn't an issue for them to be concerned about? I am sure if they expect it to be a problem, they would have been able to find a little lubricant somewhere in the shop.
As for saying you don't want to hear any more about other engines being fine.... Your mind is already made up. That's OK with me too!
ORIGINAL: 42etus
Well, Hobbsy and the rest of the nay sayers will probably say I'm nuts. After much thought about the subject I firmly believe that the Saitos with the rear vent do not get adequate lubrication in the cam area. That's what I believe, no one will convince me otherwise and I don't want to hear any more about your engines being fine, without problems. If you haven't had any problems with your rear vented Saitos, great, I'm happy for you. No problems is a good thing.
Having said all that, I tore down the 115 that Horizon had just repaired (see post#1). Well what do you know, even though they had replaced everything inside the cam box and test run the engine (with Omega 15%) the cam and lifters were absolutly bone dry. No lube what so ever. They hadn't pre-lubed the engine when they assembled it (very suprising) nor had any lube migrated to the cam when they test ran it (not suprising). That did it for me. Even though this engine is still under warranty, I installed a vent nipple just behind the front bearing. See photos. I'm 100% sure that will solve any cam lube issues that this engine may have. I haven't run the engine since the mod as the weather has been real lousy, but when it clears up I'll get out to the field and give her a go.
Paul
Well, Hobbsy and the rest of the nay sayers will probably say I'm nuts. After much thought about the subject I firmly believe that the Saitos with the rear vent do not get adequate lubrication in the cam area. That's what I believe, no one will convince me otherwise and I don't want to hear any more about your engines being fine, without problems. If you haven't had any problems with your rear vented Saitos, great, I'm happy for you. No problems is a good thing.
Having said all that, I tore down the 115 that Horizon had just repaired (see post#1). Well what do you know, even though they had replaced everything inside the cam box and test run the engine (with Omega 15%) the cam and lifters were absolutly bone dry. No lube what so ever. They hadn't pre-lubed the engine when they assembled it (very suprising) nor had any lube migrated to the cam when they test ran it (not suprising). That did it for me. Even though this engine is still under warranty, I installed a vent nipple just behind the front bearing. See photos. I'm 100% sure that will solve any cam lube issues that this engine may have. I haven't run the engine since the mod as the weather has been real lousy, but when it clears up I'll get out to the field and give her a go.
Paul
Since they repaired your cam box and didn't even pre-lube it, one just MIGHT think the Saito service techs at Horizon aren't concerned about the so-called "lack of lubrication" in that the cam box. Perhaps it simply isn't an issue for them to be concerned about? I am sure if they expect it to be a problem, they would have been able to find a little lubricant somewhere in the shop.
As for saying you don't want to hear any more about other engines being fine.... Your mind is already made up. That's OK with me too!
Anyone who would disassemble and reassemble any engine and not pre-lube everything including the screw threads should be retricted to playing with Lincoln Logs.
Bill
03-09-2009, 01:07 AM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: 42etus
......... they would have been able to find a little lubricant somewhere in the shop.
I doubt it. They weren't able to find the drive washer and prop nut that were on the engine when I sent it into them. At least they didn't return them to me. Funny, because they did screw the lock nut on to the crank, you'd think they'd notice the washer and prop nut weren't there. Probably laying on the bench in their test area or maybe on the floor.
Paul
Moderator changed one formatting letter to make quote appear correct.
......... they would have been able to find a little lubricant somewhere in the shop.
Paul
Moderator changed one formatting letter to make quote appear correct.
That's why, warranty or not, no one takes my engines apart but me.
Bill
03-09-2009, 01:13 AM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: w8ye
Horizon always made me more than happy when there were problems
ORIGINAL: 42etus
Ouch, those YS mufflers are like $30+. I hope they made good on it. I'll give Horizon a call tomorrow. My guess is that they'll own up and send me replacements.
Paul
Ouch, those YS mufflers are like $30+. I hope they made good on it. I'll give Horizon a call tomorrow. My guess is that they'll own up and send me replacements.
Paul
Bill
03-09-2009, 01:54 AM
#257
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy
...Dar you have one Saito with no problems so what is your problem?
As to why our lube systems are so simple, simplicity is always more reliable than complicated is, simplicity is more economical to produce, and simplicity in this case is very effective. There are 1,000s of Saitos out there and only about 4 alleged problems here. Simplicity in this case works for, OS four-strokes, Laser four-strokes and Enya four-strokes. Although I am short on examples of these having only one OS four-stroke, one Laser and 4 Enyas.
...Dar you have one Saito with no problems so what is your problem?
As to why our lube systems are so simple, simplicity is always more reliable than complicated is, simplicity is more economical to produce, and simplicity in this case is very effective. There are 1,000s of Saitos out there and only about 4 alleged problems here. Simplicity in this case works for, OS four-strokes, Laser four-strokes and Enya four-strokes. Although I am short on examples of these having only one OS four-stroke, one Laser and 4 Enyas.
As I wrote, my Saito seems to have no problems at all... Thank you!
But those few in this thread, as few as they are, bring up the 'I told you so' factor - my worst fears ... [sm=drowning.gif]
I simply believe that even in the name of simplicity; mandatory items, such as lubrication means for a four-stroke model engine's valve actuation system, cannot be left out... And in the case of nearly all model four-stroke engines, this specifically means having the blow-by oil going through the cam-box, before leaving the engine...
Also, had Saito made the SAI5038 lifters 2 mm larger in diameter (at least on the bottom), radiused their bottom and angle-ground the cam-lobes, the cost of manufacturing their engines would not have increased significantly.
Yet, it would have precluded the 'riding the edge', and localized wear syndromes... The life of the lifters would have been increased by a tenfold.
If GM (and contractors) could produce elaborate, precision, multi-part, fully assembled hydraulic lifters, with a radiused bottom; and sell them to you for as little as $2.75 each; Saito can surely make and sell their simple, one-piece lifters for less...
I don't understand why some people take offense, to me wanting our model engines to be better and longer-lasting... without being more expensive.
EDIT: Grammar.
03-09-2009, 03:18 AM
#259
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: DarZeelon
David,
As I wrote, my Saito seems to have no problems at all... Thank you!
But those in this thread, as few as they are, bring up the 'I told you so' factor - my worst fears ... [sm=drowning.gif]
I simply believe that even in the name of simplicity; mandatory items, such as lubrication means for a four-stroke engine model engine's valve actuation system, cannot be left out... And in the case of nearly all model four-stroke engines, this means having the blow-by oil going through the cam-box before leaving.
Also, had Saito made the SAI5038 lifters 2 mm larger in diameter (at least on the bottom), radiused their bottom and angle-ground the cam-lobes, the cost of manufacturing their engines would not have increased significantly.
Yet, it would have precluded the 'riding the edge', and localized wear syndromes... The life of the lifters would have been increased by a tenfold.
If GM (and contractors) could produce elaborate, precision, fully assembled hydraulic lifters, with a radiused bottom; and sell them to you for $2.75 each, Saito can surely make and sell their simple one-piece lifters for less...
I don't understand why some people take offense, in me wanting our model engines to be better and longer-lasting... at the same cost.
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy
...Dar you have one Saito with no problems so what is your problem?
As to why our lube systems are so simple, simplicity is always more reliable than complicated is, simplicity is more economical to produce, and simplicity in this case is very effective. There are 1,000s of Saitos out there and only about 4 alleged problems here. Simplicity in this case works for, OS four-strokes, Laser four-strokes and Enya four-strokes. Although I am short on examples of these having only one OS four-stroke, one Laser and 4 Enyas.
...Dar you have one Saito with no problems so what is your problem?
As to why our lube systems are so simple, simplicity is always more reliable than complicated is, simplicity is more economical to produce, and simplicity in this case is very effective. There are 1,000s of Saitos out there and only about 4 alleged problems here. Simplicity in this case works for, OS four-strokes, Laser four-strokes and Enya four-strokes. Although I am short on examples of these having only one OS four-stroke, one Laser and 4 Enyas.
As I wrote, my Saito seems to have no problems at all... Thank you!
But those in this thread, as few as they are, bring up the 'I told you so' factor - my worst fears ... [sm=drowning.gif]
I simply believe that even in the name of simplicity; mandatory items, such as lubrication means for a four-stroke engine model engine's valve actuation system, cannot be left out... And in the case of nearly all model four-stroke engines, this means having the blow-by oil going through the cam-box before leaving.
Also, had Saito made the SAI5038 lifters 2 mm larger in diameter (at least on the bottom), radiused their bottom and angle-ground the cam-lobes, the cost of manufacturing their engines would not have increased significantly.
Yet, it would have precluded the 'riding the edge', and localized wear syndromes... The life of the lifters would have been increased by a tenfold.
If GM (and contractors) could produce elaborate, precision, fully assembled hydraulic lifters, with a radiused bottom; and sell them to you for $2.75 each, Saito can surely make and sell their simple one-piece lifters for less...
I don't understand why some people take offense, in me wanting our model engines to be better and longer-lasting... at the same cost.
Been there Dar. During the "Piston Ring End Gap" thing two members inferred something like "Chill dude, why do you get so worked up? They are just model engines." When I take on the attritude that is just a . . . You'll see all of my engines and maybe my motorcycle in the RCU classifieds.
Bill
03-09-2009, 05:34 AM
#261
Senior Member
RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: N2ECW
Long ago I learned never to look for trouble, it will find you...
Ring gap - schming gap. <G>
Long ago I learned never to look for trouble, it will find you...
Ring gap - schming gap. <G>
Insufficient ring-gap - seized engine, broken ring, high wear.
Too large a ring-gap - low compression and high oil consumption (in full-size engines).
If you don't observe the ring-gap, trouble will surely find you...[&o]
...You will not even have to look for it.
Troubles come from people selecting not to look...
03-09-2009, 08:36 AM
#262
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: DarZeelon
That's true, Ed.
Insufficient ring-gap - seized engine, broken ring, high wear.
Too large a ring-gap - low compression and high oil consumption (in full-size engines).
If you don't observe the ring-gap, trouble will surely find you...[&o]
...You will not even have to look for it.
Troubles come from people selecting not to look...
ORIGINAL: N2ECW
Long ago I learned never to look for trouble, it will find you...
Ring gap - schming gap. <G>
Long ago I learned never to look for trouble, it will find you...
Ring gap - schming gap. <G>
Insufficient ring-gap - seized engine, broken ring, high wear.
Too large a ring-gap - low compression and high oil consumption (in full-size engines).
If you don't observe the ring-gap, trouble will surely find you...[&o]
...You will not even have to look for it.
Troubles come from people selecting not to look...
Dar, I'm teasing, mostly.
On the other hand, in all of my years of using ringed IC engines, I've never experienced a single incident of trouble with an incorrect ring gap. No, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen to someone, sometime. I'm not that stupid. At least, not quite.
If one has the inclination and ability to competently check their ring gap, then I say, "God bless'em". But I don't want newbies beginning to worry about something that is almost never a problem with a ringed model airplane engine.
There are a few experts in this forum that forget that the majority of readers never write, but they are heavily influenced by what they read here. It would be nice if they, the experts, realized this fact and tried to keep the silent newbies in mind when they decree this or that.
Ed Cregger
03-09-2009, 10:21 AM
#263
Senior Member
RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: N2ECW
Dar, I'm teasing, mostly.
Dar, I'm teasing, mostly.
On the other hand, in all of my years of using ringed IC engines, I've never experienced a single incident of trouble with an incorrect ring gap. No, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen to someone, sometime. I'm not that stupid. At least, not quite.
If one has the inclination and ability to competently check their ring gap, then I say, "God bless'em". But I don't want newbies beginning to worry about something that is almost never a problem with a ringed model airplane engine.
In 38 full size engines I overhauled, I never saw even one ring that was 'out of whack'...
The only exception was a 'file to fit' set a particular client requested.
With model engines we're not talking about such large batches...
Also, with a 4" diameter piston, a 0.1 mm off tolerance ring-gap, is nothing. With a model engine with a 21 mm diameter piston - it can be 'all or nothing'...
There are a few experts in this forum that forget that the majority of readers never write, but they are heavily influenced by what they read here. It would be nice if they, the experts, realized this fact and tried to keep the silent newbies in mind when they decree this or that.
I do tend to be on the 'answerer' side of this forum, as are you.
I will remember to keep this in mind.
03-13-2009, 10:04 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
Update to the mod done in post 244.
I installed the engine into my Ultra Stick and flew it yesterday. About 3-4 minutes into the flight and about 150 ft up, the wing came off the plane. That's another story, but the fuse and engine lawn darted to the ground. The ground was frozen and hard as concrete and engine was completely destroyed. Crankcase, cylinder, crankshaft, piston, con rod, back plate, valve covers all damaged. Parts alone would be $323. For what it's worth, the cam did look like it was being lubricated. I would have liked to put more time on this mod to see how well it did as far as lubricating the cam, but it wasn't meant to be. I've got another 115 that is destined for a Norseman that is still in the bones. If I make this modification to that engine, I'll post back my observations.
Paul
I installed the engine into my Ultra Stick and flew it yesterday. About 3-4 minutes into the flight and about 150 ft up, the wing came off the plane. That's another story, but the fuse and engine lawn darted to the ground. The ground was frozen and hard as concrete and engine was completely destroyed. Crankcase, cylinder, crankshaft, piston, con rod, back plate, valve covers all damaged. Parts alone would be $323. For what it's worth, the cam did look like it was being lubricated. I would have liked to put more time on this mod to see how well it did as far as lubricating the cam, but it wasn't meant to be. I've got another 115 that is destined for a Norseman that is still in the bones. If I make this modification to that engine, I'll post back my observations.
Paul
03-13-2009, 11:04 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
42etus,
I’m very sorry to hear about your loss. It’s bad enough dinging or crashing a plane but usually most of the engine and other periphery survive somehow. Loss of words, but at least it sounds like your OK with it and have something else in the works.
Horizon just got my 115 on the 10th so I imagine it will take them sometime. I’ll post their results when it comes back. I sincerely hope they have the cam checked for hardness or something because I cannot believe how that thing wore like that. But we’ll give the manufactures rep a chance yet.
I know it’s off topic but I have a FA100 that I just got back in the mail from Horizon today and will be put right back in the post to them tomorrow. The 100 originally had a rear bearing cage break loose and the bearing remnants gutted the engine. The service note said they changed the case, rod, both bearings, clean the engine and test ran OK. “OK. Right?” Well, I took the newly serviced engine to the hobby room, took off the back case cover to see what kind/how much of after run oil they put in, ( it seemed to be oozing out.) Anyhow, after opening the case, besides there being a lot of red colored oil - there are mucho metal fragments inside the case and scaring on the new case, too! I’m glad I opened it before putting it on a plane. We’ll see what Horizon says about this one.
I really hope Horizon has better news for me for the 115…
I want to believe they are better engines than this bad luck streak I’m having…
Frustrated,
Phil
I’m very sorry to hear about your loss. It’s bad enough dinging or crashing a plane but usually most of the engine and other periphery survive somehow. Loss of words, but at least it sounds like your OK with it and have something else in the works.
Horizon just got my 115 on the 10th so I imagine it will take them sometime. I’ll post their results when it comes back. I sincerely hope they have the cam checked for hardness or something because I cannot believe how that thing wore like that. But we’ll give the manufactures rep a chance yet.
I know it’s off topic but I have a FA100 that I just got back in the mail from Horizon today and will be put right back in the post to them tomorrow. The 100 originally had a rear bearing cage break loose and the bearing remnants gutted the engine. The service note said they changed the case, rod, both bearings, clean the engine and test ran OK. “OK. Right?” Well, I took the newly serviced engine to the hobby room, took off the back case cover to see what kind/how much of after run oil they put in, ( it seemed to be oozing out.) Anyhow, after opening the case, besides there being a lot of red colored oil - there are mucho metal fragments inside the case and scaring on the new case, too! I’m glad I opened it before putting it on a plane. We’ll see what Horizon says about this one.
I really hope Horizon has better news for me for the 115…
I want to believe they are better engines than this bad luck streak I’m having…
Frustrated,
Phil
03-14-2009, 02:26 AM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: DarZeelon
I figured you might be, Ed...
On the other hand, in all of my years of using ringed IC engines, I've never experienced a single incident of trouble with an incorrect ring gap. No, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen to someone, sometime. I'm not that stupid. At least, not quite.
If one has the inclination and ability to competently check their ring gap, then I say, "God bless'em". But I don't want newbies beginning to worry about something that is almost never a problem with a ringed model airplane engine.
That can be understood from the fact that most 'full-size' rings are manufactured in huge batches, with pretty strict tolerances...
In 38 full size engines I overhauled, I never saw even one ring that was 'out of whack'...
The only exception was a 'file to fit' set a particular client requested.
With model engines we're not talking about such large batches...
Also, with a 4" diameter piston, a 0.1 mm off tolerance ring-gap, is nothing. With a model engine with a 21 mm diameter piston - it can be 'all or nothing'...
There are a few experts in this forum that forget that the majority of readers never write, but they are heavily influenced by what they read here. It would be nice if they, the experts, realized this fact and tried to keep the silent newbies in mind when they decree this or that.
I think that I have never stopped doing that...
I do tend to be on the 'answerer' side of this forum, as are you.
I will remember to keep this in mind.
ORIGINAL: N2ECW
Dar, I'm teasing, mostly.
Dar, I'm teasing, mostly.
On the other hand, in all of my years of using ringed IC engines, I've never experienced a single incident of trouble with an incorrect ring gap. No, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen to someone, sometime. I'm not that stupid. At least, not quite.
If one has the inclination and ability to competently check their ring gap, then I say, "God bless'em". But I don't want newbies beginning to worry about something that is almost never a problem with a ringed model airplane engine.
In 38 full size engines I overhauled, I never saw even one ring that was 'out of whack'...
The only exception was a 'file to fit' set a particular client requested.
With model engines we're not talking about such large batches...
Also, with a 4" diameter piston, a 0.1 mm off tolerance ring-gap, is nothing. With a model engine with a 21 mm diameter piston - it can be 'all or nothing'...
There are a few experts in this forum that forget that the majority of readers never write, but they are heavily influenced by what they read here. It would be nice if they, the experts, realized this fact and tried to keep the silent newbies in mind when they decree this or that.
I do tend to be on the 'answerer' side of this forum, as are you.
I will remember to keep this in mind.
Oh no you don't. I almost did but . . .I'm NOT getting into the ring end gap debacle again. EVER!
Bill[8D]
03-14-2009, 02:53 AM
#268
Senior Member
RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: 42etus
Update to the mod done in post 244.
I installed the engine into my Ultra Stick and flew it yesterday. About 3-4 minutes into the flight and about 150 ft up, the wing came off the plane. That's another story, but the fuse and engine lawn darted to the ground. The ground was frozen and hard as concrete and engine was completely destroyed. Crankcase, cylinder, crankshaft, piston, con rod, back plate, valve covers all damaged. Parts alone would be $323. For what it's worth, the cam did look like it was being lubricated. I would have liked to put more time on this mod to see how well it did as far as lubricating the cam, but it wasn't meant to be. I've got another 115 that is destined for a Norseman that is still in the bones. If I make this modification to that engine, I'll post back my observations.
Update to the mod done in post 244.
I installed the engine into my Ultra Stick and flew it yesterday. About 3-4 minutes into the flight and about 150 ft up, the wing came off the plane. That's another story, but the fuse and engine lawn darted to the ground. The ground was frozen and hard as concrete and engine was completely destroyed. Crankcase, cylinder, crankshaft, piston, con rod, back plate, valve covers all damaged. Parts alone would be $323. For what it's worth, the cam did look like it was being lubricated. I would have liked to put more time on this mod to see how well it did as far as lubricating the cam, but it wasn't meant to be. I've got another 115 that is destined for a Norseman that is still in the bones. If I make this modification to that engine, I'll post back my observations.
S#it!
S#it!
Sorry for your loss, Paul...
It would be nice to know if filling zinc dythiophosphate oil (full-size engine cam and lifter assembly lube) in the cam-box (and topping it up), would protect them from any damage in the new engine.
Please attach the wing of the Norseman a little better this time...
03-14-2009, 11:50 AM
#269
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
After the crash, I found that a piece of the wing was still attached to the fuse with the wing bolts. I surmise that there was probably some damage to the wing structure under the covering that wasn't apparent.
I think that anything one would do to guarantee lubrication of the cam in these engines would be beneficial. It just isn't going to happen on it's own through normal operation. A good shot of after run oil and storing the engine in a nose down attitude would probably do it.
Paul
I think that anything one would do to guarantee lubrication of the cam in these engines would be beneficial. It just isn't going to happen on it's own through normal operation. A good shot of after run oil and storing the engine in a nose down attitude would probably do it.
Paul
03-17-2009, 09:51 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
Gents,
I sat on my motor a bit before sending it in. Horizon received my 115 on the 11th of March. Today, on the 17th, I called them to ask where it was or what was going on with it. Later in the conversation the guy was reading off the tracking numbers and then offered to track it for me. While on the phone with the rep he was able to verify that it was sitting on my front porch! "Talk about feeling like a bone head..." It happens... Those Fed-Ex guys are retired military rangers or something of the sorts. They often do sneak attacks on the home, delivering the goods.
Anyhow, attached is a report from Horizon. In a nut shell the tech, Ray Harper, agreed about the cam being prematurely worn. He replaced it and the cam housing gasket, adjusted the motor and told me to keep my eye on it. Also they are sending that Cam along with my notes about lubrication concerns to their product development team - in order to contact Saito.
Honestly I believe I had a soft cam, it missed the hardening process or something. It should never have happened but it did.
Conclusively, the friendly and fast service I've gotten from Horizon will keep me coming back for many more motors. A 3 year warrantee is pretty darn good. And anything after that isn't really too expensive if you’re looking at a $13 Cam, $5 tappets, etc. 42etus’s Saito 115 should have never have had the problems it did and neither should my cam have worn so quickly. However, Horizon has taken care of the problem to my satisfaction and I’ll keep an eye on it.
Thanks for the help and knowledge. This thread has been extremely educational...
And Paul, I'm with you on the afterrun lube. Before I'd miss an after the day lube from time to time - knowing I'd be out flying in the week. However, after run oil in my engines is now a religion.
Peace Out,
I sat on my motor a bit before sending it in. Horizon received my 115 on the 11th of March. Today, on the 17th, I called them to ask where it was or what was going on with it. Later in the conversation the guy was reading off the tracking numbers and then offered to track it for me. While on the phone with the rep he was able to verify that it was sitting on my front porch! "Talk about feeling like a bone head..." It happens... Those Fed-Ex guys are retired military rangers or something of the sorts. They often do sneak attacks on the home, delivering the goods.
Anyhow, attached is a report from Horizon. In a nut shell the tech, Ray Harper, agreed about the cam being prematurely worn. He replaced it and the cam housing gasket, adjusted the motor and told me to keep my eye on it. Also they are sending that Cam along with my notes about lubrication concerns to their product development team - in order to contact Saito.
Honestly I believe I had a soft cam, it missed the hardening process or something. It should never have happened but it did.
Conclusively, the friendly and fast service I've gotten from Horizon will keep me coming back for many more motors. A 3 year warrantee is pretty darn good. And anything after that isn't really too expensive if you’re looking at a $13 Cam, $5 tappets, etc. 42etus’s Saito 115 should have never have had the problems it did and neither should my cam have worn so quickly. However, Horizon has taken care of the problem to my satisfaction and I’ll keep an eye on it.
Thanks for the help and knowledge. This thread has been extremely educational...
And Paul, I'm with you on the afterrun lube. Before I'd miss an after the day lube from time to time - knowing I'd be out flying in the week. However, after run oil in my engines is now a religion.
Peace Out,
03-18-2009, 12:22 AM
#272
RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: Chancho
Honestly I believe I had a soft cam, it missed the hardening process or something. It should never have happened but it did.
Honestly I believe I had a soft cam, it missed the hardening process or something. It should never have happened but it did.
Use practical test: Try to file with a file and find out if the steel is soft or hard.
Hardened steel are impossible to file.
03-18-2009, 01:05 AM
#274
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
Paul, Chancho,
This seems to be a partial admission, by a leading figure in the Saito marketing chain, that there actually is something wrong in their engines...
The 'admission' by OS was the discontinuation of the .70FL, following a short production period...
Let's go to full-size...
In an older, mechanical, flat-tappet SB Chevy engine, one would expect to replace the cam and lifters at overhaul, i.e. after at least 100,000 miles...
Let us see how long this is in hours... supposing a ~30 mph average speed, the number of hours is over 3,000.
A model four-stroke spins on average 3 times faster than that full-size SB, so each hour is like 3 full-size hours.
So, it would be reasonable to expect the Saito/OS to last 1,000 hours, before cam and/or lifter replacement becomes necessary...
Does anyone here reading this, have a model four-stroke engine that has logged 1,000 hours, without requiring a cam and/or lifter replacement?
...Or is 10-20 hours a more typical life expectancy?
If so, there is something wrong and we are all being taken for granted...
This seems to be a partial admission, by a leading figure in the Saito marketing chain, that there actually is something wrong in their engines...
The 'admission' by OS was the discontinuation of the .70FL, following a short production period...
Let's go to full-size...
In an older, mechanical, flat-tappet SB Chevy engine, one would expect to replace the cam and lifters at overhaul, i.e. after at least 100,000 miles...
Let us see how long this is in hours... supposing a ~30 mph average speed, the number of hours is over 3,000.
A model four-stroke spins on average 3 times faster than that full-size SB, so each hour is like 3 full-size hours.
So, it would be reasonable to expect the Saito/OS to last 1,000 hours, before cam and/or lifter replacement becomes necessary...
Does anyone here reading this, have a model four-stroke engine that has logged 1,000 hours, without requiring a cam and/or lifter replacement?
...Or is 10-20 hours a more typical life expectancy?
If so, there is something wrong and we are all being taken for granted...
03-18-2009, 02:51 AM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: DarZeelon
Let's go to full-size...
In an older, mechanical, flat-tappet SB Chevy engine, one would expect to replace the cam and lifters at overhaul, i.e. after at least 100,000 miles...
Let us see how long this is in hours... supposing a ~30 mph average speed, the number of hours is over 3,000.
A model four-stroke spins on average 3 times faster than that full-size SB, so each hour is like 3 full-size hours.
So, it would be reasonable to expect the Saito/OS to last 1,000 hours, before cam and/or lifter replacement becomes necessary...
Let's go to full-size...
In an older, mechanical, flat-tappet SB Chevy engine, one would expect to replace the cam and lifters at overhaul, i.e. after at least 100,000 miles...
Let us see how long this is in hours... supposing a ~30 mph average speed, the number of hours is over 3,000.
A model four-stroke spins on average 3 times faster than that full-size SB, so each hour is like 3 full-size hours.
So, it would be reasonable to expect the Saito/OS to last 1,000 hours, before cam and/or lifter replacement becomes necessary...
The lubrication system in an auto-engine is far more sophisticated than simply throwing some oil in with the fuel, as is the case with our model engines.
What's more, the kind of oil used in an auto engine is far more suited to things like the cam/lifter interface than are the oils we use in our model engines.
The addition of EPAs (extreme pressure additives) to motor oils make a huge difference to the wear-rates in areas such as the cam/lifter interface but we don't have those additives in our model oils, because they'd contaminate the glowplug and cause other issues involving unwanted deposits and combustion side-effects.
However, I would certainly expect a cam/lifter set to last well over 100 hours of normal use in a model engine and I'm sure that many do.
I think my most-used Saito (an FA100) has probably 20 hours on it now and the cam/lifter area shows signs of polishing but no perceptible wear albeit I have been using the manual-assist lubrication routine ever since new.