Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Dar, here are two shots of residual oil in the crankcase of my ole Saito 1.50 and .80, the oil prestine and clean as you can see. You may be talking about this picture of the 1.15 before I ran it.

DarZeelon

Dave,


How can oil in the crankcase of an engine, which bases its entire lubrication on blow-by (i.e. not oil that was in the crankcase before the engine was run), be completely devoid of any soot?

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Dar, I've never seen any soot in the crankcase oil, ever, honest. And I've looked inside a lot of engines, both Saitos and others. The only time I've seen any dark in the oil is during the first 10 minute run as the black grease works it way out. This picture is of the 1.15 a few minutes after initial start up and using WildCat 2/4 which is 18% synthetic and the lube oil is orange.

DarZeelon

OK, Dave.

I guess you have more engines there, as sources of knowledge...

Yet, there are still those, who in this thread wrote of finding the cam-box bone-dry, after running their engines...

StevieM

Fred and Craigteffe ....wondering if you prelubed anything prior to experiencing your issues.
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It is a shame that the cambox area was not more accessible, to inspect if lube present prior to 1st run....don't really wish to pull unrun engine apart just to do this. (anyhow....can't find any detailed steps on how to do this on the web....)
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Think I'll use the LARGE shot airtool oil, leave nose down overnight, carefully purge excess out of vent before running.
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Aside.....the supplied hex wrench (2.5mm) seems pretty sloppy fit in most of the M3 cap bolts that hold motor together...normal?
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Tks, Steve

Rudolph Hart

Yup my 115 did the same thing dave

Ken6PPC

Well, now you can say that you HAVE read of Horizon Saito service department replacing an engine.

I sent my first Saito (an .82) back to Horizon, because I simply could NOT get it to run correctly. After only about 1-1/2 gallons, it seemed to run too lean and too rich at the same time. Frustrated, I called Horizon service, and explained what I had done to try to get it tuned. They asked me to send it in.

I guess they couldn't get it to run correctly either, because they sent me a brand new replacement engine, which ran perfectly. (I DID have to go through the entire break-in process again though...) The replacement engine is still running great over three years later, after burning more gallons of fuel than I kept up with counting. I was so happy with that engine, that I bought another.... then another.... and another.... etc.

If it hadn't been for such great response from the Saito service department at Horizon, I doubt that I would own nine Saito engines today! (three .82's, one 1.00, two 1.25's, one 150, & two 1.80's)

I feel confident that Horizon Saito Service will do what is right, if I have a problem with another one while it is still under warranty. However, I haven't needed their help since that first engine!

craigteffe

My Feedback: (24)

Three tanks of fuel thru the engine sent back from HH today and the engine started making the same screeching noise again. I filled the crank case full of after run oil and let it set for an hour on its nose and then restarted and did not hear the noise for the other three tanks.

I will be calling HH on Monday morning to get the scoop.

craigteffe

My Feedback: (24)

Oh and by the way how are you guys mounting your engines that have had no problem. My thought was that if you mount it invertedthe oil will make it there because of gravity and if you mount it like mine sideways, or straight up i think thats were the problem starts.

I have a friend that has one and his was making noise after 3 tanks(mounted on Mojo sideways). I have another friend that bought his for his showtime and its mounted inverted and no noise or problems so far.

Ken6PPC

I only have two of my Saitos mounted inverted. The others are mounted upright or sideways, with no cam lube issues.

However, I DO hang them nose down for storage, and I use a 50/50 mixture of transmission fluid and air tool air for ARO. I also lube the rockers and pushrods with that mixture whenever I open the valve covers to check the valve lash clearance. It is possible that helps to forestall cam lubrication issues, but I just don't know for certain. Any time I have ever opened a Saito cam box up, I always found a lot of oil in there, for whatever that is worth.

Chancho

Ken 6ppc: Wow. That’s a good sign. I’m glad to hear they took care of you like that. That’s part of what kept you buying more Saitos, too!

Craig: My engine is mounted straight up and I have had a weird noise since its origin. This noise started about 20 minutes into the break-in process and has been there since. It sounds like a whining/ticking coming from the cam box. I was surprised that after the repair it still made the noise. But the tech was pretty friendly and the service was good so I ran it anyway with the noise bothering me and felt “OK they said they fixed it.� Eventually the noise/ticking settled down and the engine runs good. I have no complaints. Only that when I dropped to the %20 nitro from %30 I lost 400 RPM. �

On the other hand of all of this, if there is a continued cam issue I would really like to see them take some sort of responsibility or offer a new cam box cover with an oil access or something...

I’m sure this was discussed before, but is it worth considering changing the rear bearing to a sealed bearing and packing the cam box with a good lube???

Rudolph Hart

If you seal the rear bearing your engine won't be able to breath,assuming it's a rear crankcase vent.

DarZeelon

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Fart

If you seal the rear bearing your engine won't be able to breath, assuming it's a rear crankcase vent.

OF,


Please explain; why do you think a Saito, which does not use the crankcase for breathing (like a YS four-stroke), will not be able to breathe, if the passage to the cam-box is shut using a sealed bearing?

The 'air spring' effect will be greater, with a smaller swept volume under the piston... But breathing will not be affected, especially because the vent is the exit from the same chamber, the blow-by gasses go into.

BASSMANGOLF

The only Saito I have had problems with is the 115! 2nd flight started knocking! Sent to HH and got it back in a week. Had a dead stick flight and apparantly stripped the cam gear. Waiting on parts to fix myself. 125 & 82 have been bullet proof!!!

Ernie Misner

Seems like I saw some issues like that with the 115 when they first came out.

Ernie Misner

StevieM

Folks,

I have a spare M3 nipple, and suitable tap.

I would like to block off the rear breather and install this in one of two locations:-
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a) in the side of the cam box, in line with the lobes.....plenty of meat here

b) just behind front bearing

Which would you recommend?

Do you think an M3 nipple would be large enough?

Rgds, Steve

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

I would leave it right where it is, I had a 1.15 for a while and never bought into the lube problem. The 1.15 is built exactly like the rest and none of them have a problem.

Cyberwolf

My Feedback: (4)

The rear breather nipple is just what it says, a breather just like the older cars used to have , if a person plugs it off your in for all sorts off issue's, I have seen it done several different ways and so far non of them has worked . Hobbsy gave the best advice leave it where it is at and go fly.

StevieM

Thanks for your replies, but my asp91fs has the breather right next to the cams, and has no issues, the backplate being totally sealed.
My Saito inlet cam lobe is slightly pitted, despite my shoving in lots of AR oil in after last flight of the day, storing nose down for a few hours, prior to hanging up. I don't think it is getting through the rear bearing very efficiently.-

Rgds, Steve

Cyberwolf

My Feedback: (4)

Hi Steve When you removed the cam cover was there any oil in there or was it dry? Also does your inner bearing have the rubber covers installed?
I am not familiar with the ASP and how the internal engine pressure is released. But the Saito use's the rear vent to obtain this , I have seen folks tee them back to the tank,block it off,run it to the muffler and non of these worked. They all made the engine run poorly and unreliable.
But what the heck your not out nothing but a little time to give your idea a try, myself I would still use a tee so the engine can still breath and prevent running issues.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

Steve,

I'm curious about what fuel you are using. I believe the cam and cam followers wear at different rates on engines. I've seen cams with hardly any wear with the cam followers cupped deeply and they needed to be ground down flat again. My 72 is just the opposite. The cam followers look brand new and the cam has a small wear pattern on it.

StevieM

Tks for replies.

It was not bone dry.

Rear bearing open.

I presume engine venting out new breather position would not be an issue....maybe I am wrong.

Fuel...10 nitro 73 methanol 15 synth 2 castor.... I also add 50ml extra castor to each gallon, think this results in 3% castor.

Followers definitely do not rotate, it is obvious which side the "leading edge", as the chamfer is marginally longer.

The pitting is really just two tiny dots on follower and same on cam...not too worried about this, but thought I'd install the breather while all in bits.

I can always plug it if there are issues, just thought it would assist oil vapour making it past the rear bearing, and into the cam area, as discussed in this thread, and Bill Robinson's Saito Notes.
It would also alleviate my having to stand plane on its nose at the end of the day, to let gravity do its work. (I could squirt AR oil in both nipples, whizz it in with starter, and store as usual)

Rgds, Steve

blw

My Feedback: (3)

I vote with Hobbsy on leaving it stock.

42etus

My Feedback: (2)

Sorry to drag up a 3 year old thread, but it happened again!.
One of my Saito 115s stripped 4 teeth off the cam gear due to no lubrication. I pulled my other 115 off the plane and opened the cam cover. Low and behold, bone dry. No lube at all. So I did the mod I showed in post #244. Then I got to thinking. My FG-21 and FG-30 (gasoline engines) both have the rear vent nipples. I removed the cam covers on both of them and the FG-30 was bone dry while the FG-21 was very oily. So what's up with that? Same fuel used in both engines, mixed as per Saito's instructions. I did the mod to the FG-30 and will do the FG-21 tomorrow...........Stay tuned.

the Wasp

My Feedback: (1)

well here's my story and I'm sticking to it,
so I am seriously looking at the Saito 125 to buy, but with my luck, I have a hang-up about this Cam lubrication problem that some have had,, so I called Horizon yesterday..

so I called Horizon to ask if they have found a reason for this Cam lubrication problem that some have had,, well I left my phone number and I received a call-back.... well in short>, I asked to talk to the Engine Service DP and I was told "NO, the Engine Service DP does not take phone calls", so I told the guy that I am seriously looking at the Saito 125 to buy, and I told him about this Cam lubrication problem and he said "he has not heard about this problem so he can not comment about it",, so again I asked if there was some one else that I can talk to that could help me, and in a stern voice the guy said again "NO"..

well with that I was thinking to just tell the guy to tell his boss that I said "well Saito can just screw off then", but I didn't, I suggested to the guy that he was upset with me for this and he tolled me "not at all". so I went on and told him about this RCU thread and how more than one have had this problem and had to send their engines back for service for premature Cam failure,, in the end he said he would talk to his boss and find me an answer and call me back,, like I said that was yesterday,, boy I hope they don't make me wait 6 or 8 weeks, maybe by then a Chinese engine will look good to me LOL < that's a joke

Jim