Glow Engines Discuss RC glow engines

2 dead Saito's in a row

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Old 02-10-2009, 02:03 AM
  #1
mboland
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Default 2 dead Saito's in a row

I have about half a dozen Saito's to date, and held the product in the highest esteem.

A new VQ warbird build was going to be the home a brand new Saito 72, of which I already have 2.

Everything went fine on the engine test stand, bolted the motor to the plane and went to test run it before putting the cowl on (you KNOW they always change tune).
Turning over by hand to prime it had virtually no compression.
Odd I thought, I have just run this in.
But it ran OK on the stand so I put the electric starter on to draw fuel through when I noticed jets of vapour shooting out from the top of the head. ???
A closer look revealed the plug hanging out by it's last thread.
Removing it and inspecting the plug hole showed ALL the thread was gone.

Now I have about a dozen assorted brand glow engines as well as the Saito's and have used the principle of 'finger start threads, then spanner tighten' and always 'check plug tension on new motors'.
I have never stripped a glow thread, cross threaded one, and this is one of those cases where you can start to doubt yourself.
And I knew the agent was going to give standard excuse #3 as to how I had done this.

So when I returned the motor to the LHS (always helpful people and they no judgements) for them to send to the agent for repair, I purchased another brand new Saito 72 so I could get this warbird into the air.

Back to the engine stand, fit motor, CHECK PLUG and tighten (they are always only finger tight straight from the box), fuel up, and turn motor over by hand to prime...
NO... the motor would not turn but rather hit a definite object inside, preventing it from going any further.
Strange, so rotate the prop backwards, carefully, got 360deg and clunk, dead stop again.
F&%^K, what is going on here. There is definitely something loose inside preventing rotation.
Lucky I didn't just whack the electric starter on.

Took motor off stand and you could actually rattle it. Turn it upside down and hear the 'object' inside drop, and you could rotate the engine.

Now the agent, far from being sympathetic, tells me that both motors will be repaired only, and there is no guarantee that it will be covered by warranty.
Not only that, but it will be 2 to 4 weeks wait.

Sorry Saito, this is not the product/service that I had come to expect.

So I guess I have posted this as a heads up to all Australian modellers if they are considering Saito.
It might be wise these days to look further afield.

The ASP's I run are cheaper, now more reliable, and I get good service on them.

Anyone else being shafted by the Australian Saito agents?


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Old 02-10-2009, 02:38 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row


Quote:
ORIGINAL:

Back to the engine stand, fit motor, CHECK PLUG and tighten (they are always only finger tight straight from the box), fuel up, and turn motor over by hand to prime...
NO... the motor would not turn but rather hit a definite object inside, preventing it from going any further.
Strange, so rotate the prop backwards, carefully, got 360deg and clunk, dead stop again.
F&%^K, what is going on here. There is definitely something loose inside preventing rotation.
Lucky I didn't just whack the electric starter on.
This would cause me to take it back to my LHS and demand a full refund, or I would leave it with them and have my Credit Card company charge them back!!!

I used to hold Saito's in the highest regards and have never heard anything negative about them. It seems that times have changed. I hope you get some satisifaction with your LHS.
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:31 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row

On that second one I wouldn`t hesitated to remove the back plate and remove what object was in there myself. I had the exact same thing happen to my YS 110 when it was new. I started it up right from the box and it idled for like 5-10 seconds then sudden stop caused by a object inside. I could turn it backwards about one turn before it jammed again. I returned it to my LHS and got it back from "repair" a couple of weeks later. This time the throttle barrel locked up as soon as the engine became warmed up and also the engine felt "grittish" Back to the LHS again and I got it back from "repair" again and tried to run it. The throttle locked up again and the carb was leaking badly also the bearings felt shot. I was fed up with these "repairs" so I completely dismantled my engine into atoms. The first thing I found was a loose part lying around inside the airchamber, it was a throttle barrle retainer which was not supposed to be two off on my engine and certainly not one inside the intake In the low end I discovered what had caused the abrupt stop, there was big coarse metalparticles mashed into the crankcase by the rotating crank weight. Also the backbearing was full of these particles, but otherwise mechanically fine. These particles came from a small set screw that there is two off in the back plate inside the engine. It is impossible for them to find their way into the crankcase even if they unscrew themselves, so this one must have been there from assembly. My LHS denied everything and even called me a liar on a Norwegian rc-forum where I shared my experience conserning this bad engine and the so-called "repairs".
I doubt they did anything else but force the engine to turn around and fired it up and clearly overtightening some screws
This is the short story, it could have been made alot longer. Anyway I replaced the bearings and the oil seal and honed and polished the crankcase, rod and the rotating valve. The top end had no visible damage luckily. After assembly the engine runs like champ and have been doing so for several years now.

I know better than to go out and say that YS is bad engines, but someone had a really bad day at work at YS`s assembly line the day my engine was assembled. And to make it worse my LHS is a crook, he could have sent it away to YS service center as I actually expected him to do and my engine would have been fixed right up.

Before anyone jumps on me and asks why I just didn`t send it away to YS service myself. The Norweigan law that is supposed to help "buyers" in case of problems and warranty issues clearly states that an item shall be returned to the seller, which in turn contacts his suppliers. And it would cost quite a bit too to ship it overseas for repairs myself.

Anyway after this experience I do all my repairs myself as warranty on glow engines is non existent here in Norway. All LHS`s always blame the user no matter what. There have been quite e few examples of that that I have heard about.

There`s one honourable exeption to the rule and that is a Norwegian MVVS dealer, he was very helpful some years ago when I had a new MVVS .49 that just didn`t perform. He sent me a new set-up for free, no questions asked. After dismantling it became apparent that my .49 was fitted with the wrong set-up and had the .45 set-up.
My .49 gained about 2000 rpm after the swap
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Old 02-10-2009, 04:53 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mboland

I have about half a dozen Saito's to date, and held the product in the highest esteem.

A new VQ warbird build was going to be the home a brand new Saito 72, of which I already have 2.

Everything went fine on the engine test stand, bolted the motor to the plane and went to test run it before putting the cowl on (you KNOW they always change tune).
Turning over by hand to prime it had virtually no compression.
Odd I thought, I have just run this in.
But it ran OK on the stand so I put the electric starter on to draw fuel through when I noticed jets of vapour shooting out from the top of the head. ???
A closer look revealed the plug hanging out by it's last thread.
Removing it and inspecting the plug hole showed ALL the thread was gone.

Now I have about a dozen assorted brand glow engines as well as the Saito's and have used the principle of 'finger start threads, then spanner tighten' and always 'check plug tension on new motors'.
I have never stripped a glow thread, cross threaded one, and this is one of those cases where you can start to doubt yourself.
And I knew the agent was going to give standard excuse #3 as to how I had done this.

So when I returned the motor to the LHS (always helpful people and they no judgements) for them to send to the agent for repair, I purchased another brand new Saito 72 so I could get this warbird into the air.

Back to the engine stand, fit motor, CHECK PLUG and tighten (they are always only finger tight straight from the box), fuel up, and turn motor over by hand to prime...
NO... the motor would not turn but rather hit a definite object inside, preventing it from going any further.
Strange, so rotate the prop backwards, carefully, got 360deg and clunk, dead stop again.
F&%^K, what is going on here. There is definitely something loose inside preventing rotation.
Lucky I didn't just whack the electric starter on.

Took motor off stand and you could actually rattle it. Turn it upside down and hear the 'object' inside drop, and you could rotate the engine.

Now the agent, far from being sympathetic, tells me that both motors will be repaired only, and there is no guarantee that it will be covered by warranty.
Not only that, but it will be 2 to 4 weeks wait.

Sorry Saito, this is not the product/service that I had come to expect.

So I guess I have posted this as a heads up to all Australian modellers if they are considering Saito.
It might be wise these days to look further afield.

The ASP's I run are cheaper, now more reliable, and I get good service on them.

Anyone else being shafted by the Australian Saito agents?



I am a died in the woll Enya freak but always had a yearning to own a Saito. An Australian E-mail friend loves his. Now, I'm beginning to wonder. No Enya vs. Saito thing here please. I think Saitos are neat looking, like 1/9th of a Pratt Whitney Wasp or a Wright J5 Whirlwind. Their camdrive and glow plug are in the right place also. Sorry about your experiences.

Bill
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Old 02-10-2009, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: asmund

On that second one I wouldn`t hesitated to remove the back plate and remove what object was in there myself. I had the exact same thing happen to my YS 110 when it was new. I started it up right from the box and it idled for like 5-10 seconds then sudden stop caused by a object inside. I could turn it backwards about one turn before it jammed again. I returned it to my LHS and got it back from "repair" a couple of weeks later. This time the throttle barrel locked up as soon as the engine became warmed up and also the engine felt "grittish" Back to the LHS again and I got it back from "repair" again and tried to run it. The throttle locked up again and the carb was leaking badly also the bearings felt shot. I was fed up with these "repairs" so I completely dismantled my engine into atoms. The first thing I found was a loose part lying around inside the airchamber, it was a throttle barrle retainer which was not supposed to be two off on my engine and certainly not one inside the intake In the low end I discovered what had caused the abrupt stop, there was big coarse metalparticles mashed into the crankcase by the rotating crank weight. Also the backbearing was full of these particles, but otherwise mechanically fine. These particles came from a small set screw that there is two off in the back plate inside the engine. It is impossible for them to find their way into the crankcase even if they unscrew themselves, so this one must have been there from assembly. My LHS denied everything and even called me a liar on a Norwegian rc-forum where I shared my experience conserning this bad engine and the so-called "repairs".
I doubt they did anything else but force the engine to turn around and fired it up and clearly overtightening some screws
This is the short story, it could have been made alot longer. Anyway I replaced the bearings and the oil seal and honed and polished the crankcase, rod and the rotating valve. The top end had no visible damage luckily. After assembly the engine runs like champ and have been doing so for several years now.

I know better than to go out and say that YS is bad engines, but someone had a really bad day at work at YS`s assembly line the day my engine was assembled. And to make it worse my LHS is a crook, he could have sent it away to YS service center as I actually expected him to do and my engine would have been fixed right up.

Before anyone jumps on me and asks why I just didn`t send it away to YS service myself. The Norweigan law that is supposed to help "buyers" in case of problems and warranty issues clearly states that an item shall be returned to the seller, which in turn contacts his suppliers. And it would cost quite a bit too to ship it overseas for repairs myself.

Anyway after this experience I do all my repairs myself as warranty on glow engines is non existent here in Norway. All LHS`s always blame the user no matter what. There have been quite e few examples of that that I have heard about.

There`s one honourable exeption to the rule and that is a Norwegian MVVS dealer, he was very helpful some years ago when I had a new MVVS .49 that just didn`t perform. He sent me a new set-up for free, no questions asked. After dismantling it became apparent that my .49 was fitted with the wrong set-up and had the .45 set-up.
My .49 gained about 2000 rpm after the swap

All these problems with new engines, YS, Saito. I think, "If you want somthing done right, do it yourself." I would have torn down the engine also. I will soon take delivery of a new-in-box Enya 1.55 purchased in 2000 and never run. You can bet I'm going to completely diassemble and assemble it. I will at least be sure that it is pre-lubed as the manufacturer has stated that it is not necessary to do so.

Bill
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Old 02-10-2009, 06:19 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row

Yes, even the best will produce a lemon once in a while, still good engines though
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:56 PM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row

I'm happy with my Saitos but I *do* tend to think that they have a reputation that somewhat exceeds the reality of their design and manufacture.

Pretty much the sole reason I use Saitos is because they are so light (I fly 3D) but they do have a number of design deficiencies:

1. The exhaust-stack/head interface is prone to breakage

2. The lack of a brass/bronze insert for the glowplug thread makes it easy for hamfisted people to strip-out those threads.

3. The substandard lubrication path for those Saitos with a backplate-mounted breather can cause issues

4. The standard bearings are not always up to the job.

5. The early .72s had issues with the seal of the intake manifold to head (plastic backplate allowed vibes to wreck the O-ring).

6. For some reason, two identical engines may behave very differently in respect to vibration levels.

etc, etc.

They're not perfect but for some applications (such as 3D) it's easy to overlook any deficiencies when you consider the power-to-weight ratio :-)
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Old 03-16-2009, 01:55 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row

OK, it's time for an update.

Note the date, and still no word from our esteemed Saito agents here in Australia.

That would be The Hobby Headquarters.

This is about on par with previous service problems I have had that had to go through them.
As an example, a new wing tube for a Fliton Inspire took 7 months to arrive.

I still love the Saito engines, but I don't need this aggravation when it comes to service.
My next motor purchase, some time this week, will be another brand NOT imported by Hobby Headquarters.
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:26 AM
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G'day Thanks for the update. I too love my Saitos but I don't like the way Hobby Headquarters works. They will not sell parts direct to the user, they will only deal through their dealers and my local hobby shop does not like dealing with them so I find it hard to get parts. I am yet to find a reliable source of supply for Saito parts in Oz.

I recently bought an FA-90TS twin and have found that Hobby Headquarters does not supply a throttle extension that is supplied by the US agent as part of the package. The engine is not easy to set up without it as the carby is very close to the firewall and right in the middle of the tank which is good for fuel supply but not for getting a linkage to it.
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: mike109

G'day Thanks for the update. I too love my Saitos but I don't like the way Hobby Headquarters works. They will not sell parts direct to the user, they will only deal through their dealers and my local hobby shop does not like dealing with them so I find it hard to get parts. I am yet to find a reliable source of supply for Saito parts in Oz.
I get my Saito parts from the USA via friends who are happy to buy them and post them off to me here in NZ.
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Old 03-16-2009, 03:49 PM
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I've been waiting since last year for an engine from guess who?? and other club members have similar issues.It seems hobby headquarters have room for a manager.
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:40 PM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row

And I waited months for some Intake Stacks for my Saito 45........from guess who ??!!

Luckily for me, some kind soul from the USA befriended me (thank you Steve) & was able to source & post those stacks to me here in Australia within 7 days of he becoming aware of my problem. There is no doubt we in Australia are getting the spikey end of the pineapple [:-]
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Old 03-16-2009, 11:45 PM
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Does anyone know how to contact Saito direct?

I know the Aus market is no biggy but surely they can do without the bad pr.
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:00 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row

http://www.saito-mfg.com/

SAITO SEISAKUSHO CO., LTD.
22-7 TOKAGI 3-CHOME,ICHIKAWA-SHI, CHIBA,272-0024,

Saito Seisakusho Co., Ltd.

〒 272-0024  千葉県市 市稲荷木3丁目22-7 Ichikawa City, Chiba 272-0024 稲荷木Zip 3-chome, 22-7

TEL:047-378-4156 代表) TEL :047-378-4156 (Representative)
FAX:047-378-4155 FAX :047-378-4155
斎藤製作所サービスセンターTEL 047-378-4158 Saito Seisakusho Service Center TEL :047-378-4158
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:45 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row

Quote:
ORIGINAL: w8ye

http://www.saito-mfg.com/

SAITO SEISAKUSHO CO., LTD.
22-7 TOKAGI 3-CHOME,ICHIKAWA-SHI, CHIBA,272-0024,

Saito Seisakusho Co., Ltd.

〒 272-0024  千葉県市 市稲荷木3丁目22-7 Ichikawa City, Chiba 272-0024 稲荷木Zip 3-chome, 22-7

TEL:047-378-4156 代表) TEL :047-378-4156 (Representative)
FAX:047-378-4155 FAX :047-378-4155
斎藤製作所サービスセンターTEL 047-378-4158 Saito Seisakusho Service Center TEL :047-378-4158
pretty crazy site they have...

The only writing I can read is 50cc. Steam Engine. 150 B.C.
Cannot find the link to the engine mount for it...

edit:
I found a translating page and it says:

It can run with Masuno in peace!
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Old 03-17-2009, 02:15 AM
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I sort of doubt that it is the 'Saito' companies page.
Not only is it all in Japanese but why are there 2 hobby shop links on the front page?

I did a 'whois' and came up with
Domain Name: SAITO-MFG.COM
Registrar: GMO INTERNET, INC. DBA ONAMAE.COM AND DISCOUNT-DOMAIN.COM
Whois Server: whois.discount-domain.com
Referral URL: http://www.discount-domain.com
Name Server: DNS01.GMOSERVER.JP
Name Server: DNS02.GMOSERVER.JP
Status: ok
Updated Date: 04-jul-2008
Creation Date: 01-feb-2004
Expiration Date: 01-feb-2010

Discount-domain.com is the .jp registry and does not allow .com registrations ??? curious???

It appears bogus to me.
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Old 03-17-2009, 06:05 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mike early

Quote:
ORIGINAL: w8ye

http://www.saito-mfg.com/

SAITO SEISAKUSHO CO., LTD.
22-7 TOKAGI 3-CHOME,ICHIKAWA-SHI, CHIBA,272-0024,

Saito Seisakusho Co., Ltd.

〒 272-0024  千葉県市 市稲荷木3丁目22-7 Ichikawa City, Chiba 272-0024 稲荷木Zip 3-chome, 22-7

TEL:047-378-4156 代表) TEL :047-378-4156 (Representative)
FAX:047-378-4155 FAX :047-378-4155
斎藤製作所サービスセンターTEL 047-378-4158 Saito Seisakusho Service Center TEL :047-378-4158
Hero would be proud. I WANT ONE!!!!!!!!! What a great humidifier!

Bill

pretty crazy site they have...

The only writing I can read is 50cc. Steam Engine. 150 B.C.
Cannot find the link to the engine mount for it...

edit:
I found a translating page and it says:

It can run with Masuno in peace!
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Old 03-17-2009, 06:08 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mike early

Quote:
ORIGINAL: w8ye

http://www.saito-mfg.com/

SAITO SEISAKUSHO CO., LTD.
22-7 TOKAGI 3-CHOME,ICHIKAWA-SHI, CHIBA,272-0024,

Saito Seisakusho Co., Ltd.

〒 272-0024  千葉県市 市稲荷木3丁目22-7 Ichikawa City, Chiba 272-0024 稲荷木Zip 3-chome, 22-7

TEL:047-378-4156 代表) TEL :047-378-4156 (Representative)
FAX:047-378-4155 FAX :047-378-4155
斎藤製作所サービスセンターTEL 047-378-4158 Saito Seisakusho Service Center TEL :047-378-4158

pretty crazy site they have...

The only writing I can read is 50cc. Steam Engine. 150 B.C.
Cannot find the link to the engine mount for it...

edit:
I found a translating page and it says:

It can run with Masuno in peace!

It come with the mount silly.[sm=72_72.gif]

Bill
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Old 03-17-2009, 06:55 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mike early

Quote:
ORIGINAL: w8ye

http://www.saito-mfg.com/

SAITO SEISAKUSHO CO., LTD.
22-7 TOKAGI 3-CHOME,ICHIKAWA-SHI, CHIBA,272-0024,

Saito Seisakusho Co., Ltd.

〒 272-0024  千葉県市 市稲荷木3丁目22-7 Ichikawa City, Chiba 272-0024 稲荷木Zip 3-chome, 22-7

TEL:047-378-4156 代表) TEL :047-378-4156 (Representative)
FAX:047-378-4155 FAX :047-378-4155
斎藤製作所サービスセンターTEL 047-378-4158 Saito Seisakusho Service Center TEL :047-378-4158
Would you pay $190.00 for a humidifier? You should see the freakin' video. I think it would swing a 6 x 4 APC. Toss in a can of sterno once in a while (less expensive than nitro) = heat plus humidity. I really do want one.

Bill

pretty crazy site they have...

The only writing I can read is 50cc. Steam Engine. 150 B.C.
Cannot find the link to the engine mount for it...

edit:
I found a translating page and it says:

It can run with Masuno in peace!
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:45 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row

Yes bone over here they call them pineapple princesses.Was talking to a local hobby store worker today and apparently they call them hopeless headquarters over here,good luck mate
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:03 AM
  #21
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row

I think that Saito whirling steam kettle is more of a conversation piece on some big shot's office desk?
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:24 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row

It is an exact representation (from original drawings) of the world's first engine.
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:26 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row

Quote:
ORIGINAL: w8ye

I think that Saito whirling steam kettle is more of a conversation piece on some big shot's office desk?

Or on a nitwit's coffee table in Burtchville Michigan.

Bill[sm=spinnyeyes.gif]
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:29 AM
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mike early

It is an exact representation (from original drawings) of the world's first engine.

Indeed.

Bill
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Old 03-18-2009, 06:23 AM
  #25
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Default RE: 2 dead Saito's in a row


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Old Fart

I've been waiting since last year for an engine from guess who?? and other club members have similar issues.It seems hobby headquarters have room for a manager.
The only room HH have is the room for improvement and a bloody big one at that.
Standard not covered under warranty excuse is "you've run it too lean" by their warranty "engine ear"
There service is "non existant" perhaps Saito would like to know that.
Like my Saito's and get parts from OS.

Cheers
Paul
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