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-   -   MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/glow-engines-114/2156234-moki-bootleg-re-labeled-engines.html)

mr.moki 09-07-2004 08:36 PM

MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
It has come to our attention that the manufacturer of Moki engines in Hungary is attempting to sell re-labeled engines in the US, and engines bearing the Moki name as well. This is in direct violation of our exclusive import contract. This also represents a direct violation of our ownership of the US Moki registered trademark. Please be advised that purchasing one of these engines may subject you to a US customs violation. These engines will not be serviced by us in any fashion. If you acquire one of these bootleg engines, your only service recourse will be to send it back to Hungary. If anyone has any information regarding this illegal activity, please let us know.

James Gerard
Gerard Enterprises, Inc
MOKIUSA
mokiusa@wi.rr.com
(262) 784-4510

>>EDIT: Reformat print. wr.

ben flyn 09-07-2004 09:10 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Has YOUR price gone up on these fine engines? If not what ARE YOU worrying about?

Cyclic Hardover 09-07-2004 09:41 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Although I am not a Moki man, this is good information. I also doubt that threats of Customs Violations will win you any new customers in this crowd. However please elaborate as to how the R/C world is to identify one of these engines. If you don't, well with the area RCU covers, you may as well hang it up. Nobody will take a chance on either one of them

Windwalker 09-07-2004 10:39 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
What He Said!

WW:D

Flyboy Dave 09-08-2004 06:08 AM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
A "customs violation" for buying an engine from the manufacturer ? [sm=stupid.gif]

FBD.

Spoiler 09-08-2004 06:24 AM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Sounds like they aren't so pleased with you either! What about internet orders. If someone in the US orders one from just engines for instance, is that also a bootleg engine?? Bootleg means "counterfeight" - the manufacturer cant counterfeight (fake) its own product.

JoeAirPort 09-08-2004 07:42 AM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Quote:

ORIGINAL: Spoiler

Sounds like they aren't so pleased with you either! What about internet orders. If someone in the US orders one from just engines for instance, is that also a bootleg engine?? Bootleg means "counterfeight" - the manufacturer cant counterfeight (fake) its own product.
You can't order a Moki from JustEngines if you live in the US. It's in JustEngine's FAQ for US customers.

It sounds like Moki MFG is trying to sell the same engine with a different label to skirt around their contract with Mr Moki (and try to sell more engines). It's kind of like brand labeling. A company I used to work for did this as well. They just painted the product a different color and had a different logo. Although they had no contract with anyone so there was no re-course possible. Is it ethical? Ethical is getting to be an old fashioned word in the business world these days.

So the way I understand it, it's the same engine. But if you have problems with one, you might not be able to get support (except maybe here).

Rudeboy 09-08-2004 08:14 AM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Re-labeled as what...?

Aero-naut in Germany sells them as "Mark Engines"...

[link=http://www.aero-naut.de/aeronaut/de/allg/index.html?http://www.aero-naut.de/aeronaut/de/.../moki.htm]Mark Motoren[/link]

Sport_Pilot 09-08-2004 08:28 AM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
So the Huns are flooding the market with Moki's.

LuvBipes 09-08-2004 08:30 AM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Yep. they are sold via the internet direct from Hungary under the "Mark" brand. I fail to see the illegality of a hobbiest responding to an offer from the manufacturer to sell an item under a different brand name. GM makes very similar cars under various "brands" Chevy, Pontiac, Olds, etc. I know from personal experience, that Mark and Moki engines are identical other than the name on the engine case. And no, you won't have any service on the engines in the U.S. (gotta' send them back to Hungary), that's what you give up in exchange for a great price.

That Mr Gerard is upset I can understand, since nobody likes competition, but threatening his potential customers is not very smart from a commercial point of view IMHO.

Cyclic Hardover 09-08-2004 12:03 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Do we know if these are actually "Moki's" for less. Not that I want one but it could be like comparing the OS to TT which in my opinion are equal in performance but the cost is a big spread. I think he should have kept quiet about it.[X(]

Ed Smith 09-08-2004 12:33 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
If Gerard Enterprises/Moki USA has a written agreement to be the sole US distributor of that engine then the company has valid complaint. If Moki is using back door methods to bypass the distributor then that is wrong. It begs the question as to what the relationship between these two companies is.

As was mentioned, Moki USA should explain to the potential customer how to identify the legitimate engine, if for no other reason than the buyer can get it serviced.

Threatening me with customs violations will just make me rush out and buy the lookalike!!

Ed S

JoeAirPort 09-08-2004 12:55 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Mr Moki, does this have anything to do with your selling Moki 2.10's NIB for a well discounted price in the RCU Marketplace? Are you getting out of the Moki business? Or are you trying to compete with these re-labled Moki engines that are selling for less? Just curious.

Cyclic Hardover 09-08-2004 02:09 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
This will be an interesting outcome.

hilleyja 09-08-2004 02:47 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Quote:

Cyclic Hardover:
This will be an interesting outcome.
It would be more interesting to see Gerard respond to these follow-on posts on the discussion forum they started.

Ed Smith 09-08-2004 05:15 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Quote:

Mr Moki, does this have anything to do with your selling Moki 2.10's NIB for a well discounted price in the RCU Marketplace? Are you getting out of the Moki business? Or are you trying to compete with these re-labled Moki engines that are selling for less? Just curious.
AHA, The plot thickens.

This whole discussion brings up the issue of online sales, which of course is worldwide. Should a company have the right to sell, online, into a country in which it has contract distributer agreements? I would say NO.

Ed S

mr.moki 09-08-2004 05:35 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Wow! What an interesting stream of comments. First, let me apologize if I made anyone
apprehensive with my previously posted message. This was intended to inform rather than
intimidate. My mention of the US customs issue was aimed at possible commercial
purchases intended for resale. There is indeed a US customs declaration in effect that
would provide for possible seizure of any “Moki” branded goods coming into the US
“through the back door”. It has been enforced before and it could be again if necessary.
On the other hand, any individual that may purchase either a “Mark” branded engine, or
any other re-labeled Moki engine, would not have anything to be concerned about. Your
real concern should be the fact that your engine would have no US warranty, and we will
not service it. It is like buying a Nikon camera in Japan and asking Nikon USA to repair it
under warranty. They won’t, and neither will we. On the other hand, commercial
importation of Moki branded engines for resale would not only be a customs violation and
a contract violation, it would also be a registered trademark violation. Someone has
posted the question of how to identify a legal Moki engine. First of all, it is very unlikely
that you would ever find a bootleg engine being offered by any retail hobby shop, or mail
order dealer in the USA. However, this may not be the case in Canada. The real tip-off is
that the engine box would have the trademarked Moki logo. In addition, it would have a
large label on the box showing that it came from Gerard Enterprises, Inc. It would also
have all of the proper instructions and other paperwork from Gerard Enterprises in the
box. Also, all legitimate Moki engines will have a serial number on the side of the lug. All
Moki engines that pass through our hands are individually inspected and adjusted if
necessary. In addition, one engine from every carton is dismantled and checked for
dimensional consistency. Again, the primary intent of my previous forum posting was to
advise anyone considering buying a Moki engine from Hungary, that they were buying an
engine with no US service and support. In addition, you would probably not be saving
any money, particularly if you ever have any problem. If you look for my commercial ad
here in RCU for Moki 2.10 engines, you will see what I am talking about!

Thanks,
Jim Gerard
Gerard Enterprises, Inc.
MOKIUSA
(262) 784-4510

pilotkelowna 09-08-2004 05:53 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
James - I presume our Canadian hobby shops selling the Moki line are obtaining their product from you, but unless you hold the Canadian copyright as well, my understanding is that our stores would not be doing anything untoward in ordering direct from Europe or wherever and selling retail. Probably not likely that they would, as the North American warranty you offer has considerable value to most modellers - I would not be wanting to send an engine overseas for this work.

If the manufacturer was bootlegging these engines, they are still factory originals with the usual logo and serial # I would think, but the instructions and warranty certificate would not be yours, right ?? Bootlegged products are still the original goods but bypassing the authorized selling network. Knockoffs are altogether different, and not the original product.

bigchap 09-08-2004 06:13 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
if it's the same engine then i would buy it,after all you wouldn't buy a car from the first dealership you came to would you?i think somebody is a wee bit upset because they had it all to themselves for a long time but seeing as they only put their moniker on it i reckon it's o.k.

Spoiler 09-09-2004 09:00 AM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Interesting. The bottom line is that if Moki has a sole agency agreement with Mr Gerard, they should not be going behind his back and selling motors to other agents and or shops. It gets a little more interesting where the motors are rebranded engines. Most manufactueres would never do this as it dilutes the value of their brand/trademark. It certainly cheapens the brand in my eyes. I always saw Moki as an exclusive big glow engine brand, now I'm not so sure. I certainly would not expect an agent to sevice the rebranded thing or honour a warranty for a product he didnt import so the initial post does look like a scare tactic to put off potential purchasers of the "other" Moki's.

JoeAirPort 09-09-2004 09:54 AM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Yeah in the end this makes Moki look bad. I wonder if the will also affect the quality of their engines. If so, it will turn up in RCU for sure won't it? They have had years of a good reputation, hopefull this won't change.

Bob101 09-09-2004 10:44 AM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Any chance your contract gives you exclusive distribution rights to "MOKI" brand in the US and not the specific engines mentioned.

I just wonder, because if the base company MOKI makes another brand - even if it's the same exact engine I'm guessing it's not illegal/violation of contract for them to sell them in the US unless specifically stated otherwise in your contract.

Just thinking out loud. But if your contract says you have rights to all "X" brand engines in the US. But they also make "Y" brand engines and "Y" brand isn't listed in your contract - then you probably need a new attorney.

JoeAirPort 09-09-2004 11:38 AM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Exlusive rights to distribute a company's product is pretty much a thing of the past. I worked for a US company back in 1997 and they made all their international distributors sign a contract giving up their exlusive rights to distribute. They all signed it. none of them wanted to lose it altogether so they just caved in....no other choice. The company was Kohler Generators. BTW, they were the same company that painted their generators a different color and put a different sticker logo on it...re-labeling. Then they had a entirely separate line of distributors in each country selling basically the same product. Talk about a mess. It was funny, you could go out into Kohler's factory and see the genererator line split off into two different paint areas. It was the same up to the point. This thread reminds me of that company.

LuvBipes 09-09-2004 01:35 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Guys, Moki is trying to sell directly to consumers doing an end-run on Mr Gerard. Why is anyone's guess.....

I've had one of the engines (with the Mark brand) for a year now and have over 100 trouble-free flights on it. I also own another 2.1 under the Moki brand. They are identical in all respects other than the name stamped on the side.

Since Mr Gerard lowered his prices in line w/ the internet sale price of the Mark brand engines, it's a no-brainer that U.S. customers should buy from him and NOT from the Hungarians since you can count on his after-sale and warrantee support.

Rudeboy 09-09-2004 03:26 PM

RE: MOKI BOOTLEG & RE-LABELED ENGINES
 
Quote:

ORIGINAL: JoeAirPort

Yeah in the end this makes Moki look bad. I wonder if the will also affect the quality of their engines. If so, it will turn up in RCU for sure won't it? They have had years of a good reputation, hopefull this won't change.
I don't think so. The fact is, they are the same engines. A Mark engine is exactly the same in every respect as a Moki.

And here's the reason... this comes from Just Engines:
1) The 'original and genuine' Moki company have been making Moki branded glow engines (in Budapest, Hungary) since 1957. The company name is MET '93 Ltd - don't ask me why they aren't called Moki, but I guess this is where the confusion starts!
2) The Moki glow engines have gained a superb reputation worldwide for their low weight, high performance and easy, reliable handling.
3) MET '93 Ltd only trademarked the name 'Moki' in Hungary - leaving an 'opportunity' for other companies!
4) To protect the Moki brand, MET '93 allowed their 2 main distributors; Just Engines to own the trademark in the U.K. and France and Jim Gerard to own it in the U.S.A.
5) A company who we believe to be called Air World see www.airworld.online.de a German company, also manufacture model engines (mainly petrol) - and call them Moki - having trademarked the name in Germany!
These engines are sold as Moki, Mackay (UK) and RCS (USA) - although their official designation I believe to be AW (hence why most of their engines have AW as the prefix, eg AW30)

So, AirWorld has a trademark on the MOKI brand in Germany... but for a different engine! MOKI Hungary therefore had to come up with a different name for their engines in order to be able to sell them in Germany.

So MOKI didn't come up with the MARK brand in order to be able to sell substandard or lower quality engines behind the back of Gerard Enterprises.

Of course, I agree, the ethics of selling re-labeled engines behind the back of your distributor can be disputed.

Maybe MOKI feels mister Gerard could do a better job marketing their product... and this is just a little push in the back... :D Ok,ok, bad joke...;)


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