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Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:44 AM
  #1
bem
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Default Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)

Hi,

I have an old singel channel radio, Telepilot from Sweden, that I'm restoring.
It is a 27 MHz radio made about 1957-1958.
It is so old it had tubes in both transmitter and receiver.

I'm trying to find sources for transmitter antenna that may fit this radio.
I have seen in old catalogs from that time that my radio used a 1200 millimeter / 47.25 inch long antenna.

Is it any good sources out there for transmitter antennas?

Specification of my antenna:

Length: 1200 millimeter / 47.25 inch
Collapsible
Sections: 6
Length of sections:
section 1 ~220 mm / 8.66 inch
section 2 - 6 ~ 196 mm / 7.72 inch
Width of sections:
section 1 ~7.9 mm
section 2 ~6.9 mm
section 3 ~5.9 mm
section 4 ~4.9 mm
section 5 ~3.9 mm
section 6 ~2.9 mm
Antenna mounting base needed: female 4 mm thread

I have a similar antenna (se images below) but it has last sectiion 6 broken/missing and the antenna mount on the antenna itself is male 4 mm thread but the antenna I need must have a hole/female 4 mm thread inside the antenna base since the antenna mounting in the transmitter has male 4 mm thread sticking up as a screw.

Can You stear me, give links,in some direction where I may find a antenna that fit my specification?

Thanks,
Bo
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:28 AM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)

The first google search for a 27 mhz transmitter antenna turned up: http://thebarnfloor.com/catalog/prod...oducts_id=1860 for $4.
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:39 AM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)

Hi,

Thank's, that seems to be an antenna that might work, cheap to!
Did not say how long it is, the original antenna for my old radio is 1200 mm / 47.25 inch.

/Bo
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:47 AM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)

Hi Bo,
Interesting thread! Telemaster radio.

An important question to answer is, was it a straight antenea as you show in your example or a CLC antenna?
Maybe the catalogue can answer this question or..... you already did check this yourself.
Fact, when the original was a CLC, is a Center Loaded Coil, then you need again such an antenna or, you have to make one because tuning of the output is only possibe with the right dimensioned and type antenna.

For tuning you need a simple instrument as a fieldstrength meter wich you can make yourself if you want.
When it isn't known about the type of antenna you also can use cupper wire and a fieldstrength meter to find out and do some research of the transmitter in the first place.

Cees
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:09 AM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)

I could only find two 27 mhz transmitters in the shop clutter. The others were 72 mhz Micro Avionics measuring 54 in. The two 27 mhz transmitters were a Mule at 51.5 in and a Controlaire measuring 51 inches.
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:12 AM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)

Sorry, I may have confused the issue. Both the Controlaire at 51" and the Mule at 51.5" are centerloaded antennas.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:57 AM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Taurus Flyer

Hi Bo,
Interesting thread! Telemaster radio.

An important question to answer is, was it a straight antenea as you show in your example or a CLC antenna?
Maybe the catalogue can answer this question or..... you already did check this yourself.
Fact, when the original was a CLC, is a Center Loaded Coil, then you need again such an antenna or, you have to make one because tuning of the output is only possibe with the right dimensioned and type antenna.

For tuning you need a simple instrument as a fieldstrength meter wich you can make yourself if you want.
When it isn't known about the type of antenna you also can use cupper wire and a fieldstrength meter to find out and do some research of the transmitter in the first place.

Cees
Hello there Cees!

It is a straight antenna as shown in the pictures in my first post I need. It is no coil on these Telepilotsingle channel radio antenna.
The antenna was available as 2-piece antenna or as a telescope-antenna(the antenna shown in my pictures above). The telescope antenna was a few $ more expensive then the 2-piece antenna. A 2-piece antenna was possible to mount apart in the middle (threades).
There is actually a Youtube video of the exact same Telepilot radio that I have where a Swedish control linechampion (27 time Swedish champion in F2B control line) show his old Telepilot radio he used in end of 1950th and there You can see he has the 2-piece antenna on his Telepilot radio he is holding in his hand and as You can seeit is no coil on the antenna, just a straight antenna. I know it is a Telepilot radio he has since there are other pictures on his radio showing that).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTUDdtkUNwQ
(about 0:17 sec -> in the video)

Good suggestion to use copperwire to figure out exact antenna length and use a field strength meter if needed.
I have an old book (Radio Control, byBeckman and Hellström, 1959 1st edition,1963 2nd edition) where it is described how to build a field strength meter and instructions how to use it.
But I'm sure original antenna lenght was 1200 mm /47.5 inch since it say so in catalog where the radio was described so I suppose I should aim as close to that. I can see some new antennas today have length of 800-900 mm (31.5 - 35.4 inch) but that is probably to short, but I do not know how much range You will loose with little shorter antenna then original.

I found rather many antenna candidatesat Tower Hobbies but many of them has not specified the length.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...enna&search=Go

(4 page of various antennas)

The tubes in the TX and RX I have found new ones at Elfa (very large electronics reseller here in my country) so that is solved.
Next big problem will be to make a battery solution for TX since it usedan anodebattery of 90 volt (like Tudor 90 A 7) and glowbattery 1,5 volt.
RX has also a slight complicatedoriginal battery solution with 3 different batteries (I think) that I have to solve in somegood way.

/Bo
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:08 AM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)

Bo,

Antenna seems to be clear, no CLC. (I doubt the radio in the video is a tube transmitter! Isn't it a transistor radio?)

CLC antennas do have a better efficiency, I even did use TLC (top loaded) in the past.
My first antennas were made of two pieces of piano wire (0,7 m) and the coil in the isolated coupler in the middle.

Interesting would be the circuit diagram, are you interested to find out? It also can be helpful to make the radio operational.
I can help you to find out when you show some detailed photographs!

in my opinion you cannot solve the problems, make the system operational, without a (simple !) fieldstrength meter.
First you need the output power of the transmitter which depends on tuning of the coil(s) and capacitor(s). Without knowing there is any rf outpunt and the optimum value you will not know where to tune (or solve problems),, transmitter or receiver.

It isn't known what the effect is of a too short or too long antenna, it depends of the circuit diagram and tuning. A longer antenna even can result in lower output power!

Other point is the frequency, especially because there isn't a xtal in the transmitter, it would be helpful having a receiver or portable radio or frequenty counter so you can check the frequency of the transmitter. When the frequency is too much deviated from the 27 MHz maybe than also you cannot tune the optimum of both transmitter and receiver.

Plate tension you can make by coupling 10 9V batterys in the first place, when the radio is operational a converter can be used too.

Cees
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:17 PM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)

Bo
Jag ser gyre pÄ bilden. Vet du Telepilot gyro rodermekanism?
Gyrot var ett sinnrikt sÀtt att manövrera ett roder eller rÀttare sagt sidoroder. Denna rodermekanism bestod av en elmotor arbetande pÄ 3 volt spÀnning med en liten mekanism som bestod av en slunga som kastade ut vikter, ju högre hastighet ju lÀngre ut kastades dessa vikter ut. I s(l)utÀndan gav dÄ motor full fart roder Ät ett hÄll och ej aktiv motor roder Är andra hÄllet, detta andra hÄllet Ästadkoms genom att ett gummiband eller en liten dragfjÀder utgjorde kraften.
Flygning rakt fram sker genom att gyrot pulsa’s ut att stĂ„ och pendla i mittlĂ€ge.
Min frÄga Àr, har din sÀndare en generatorn för sÀndarpulsen för mittlÀge?

Cees
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:34 PM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)




Quote:
ORIGINAL: Taurus Flyer

Bo
Jag ser gyre på bilden. Vet du Telepilot gyro rodermekanism?
Gyrot var ett sinnrikt sätt att manövrera ett roder eller rättare sagt sidoroder. Denna rodermekanism bestod av en elmotor arbetande på 3 volt spänning med en liten mekanism som bestod av en slunga som kastade ut vikter, ju högre hastighet ju längre ut kastades dessa vikter ut. I s(l)utändan gav då motor full fart roder åt ett håll och ej aktiv motor roder år andra hållet, detta andra hållet åstadkoms genom att ett gummiband eller en liten dragfjäder utgjorde kraften.
Flygning rakt fram sker genom att gyrot pulsa’s ut att stå och pendla i mittläge.
Min fråga är, har din sändare en generatorn för sändarpulsen för mittläge?

Cees
Hi Cees,

Yes it is a "GYRON" rudder mechanism that is based on a rotating "rotor" - a centrifugalregulator that use the centrifugal force to get the rod to move in/out that is connected to the rudder. I believe that Telecontrol company that made Telepilot radios here in Sweden was alone with that versionofrudder mechanism at that time. Principle is according to images below.
It is as You write a rubber band that controlled the motion in the oposite direction (to the left).
It was decided that when signal was on (pulse) the GYRON started to rotate (faster) and the linkage was pulled resulting in rudder deflection to the right (seen from behind). When no signal (no pulse) the GYRON motor slowed and the rod did not pull and instead the rubber band pulled the rudder to the left.
Telepilot had several generations of GYRON, I know of at least 4 versions - two early "open" GYRON and two later fully "enclosed" in a tube and one of them was a Super-GYRON with better electric motor and lower current consumtion.
The pull force of the earlier GYRON was about 500 gram (I do not know the pull force on the later versions).
See images below of various Telepilot GYRON.

I have a new in box Super-GYRON and also the instructions for it that. I have translated to english for You so You can read how Telepilot intended them to be used, see below.

My transmitter has to the best of my knowledge nopulse for neutral position, You have to pulse it continuously in correct way to get neutral position on the rudder.
My Telepilot is one of the earlier versions (about 1957-1958). Telepilot started to make own radios about 1955 and produced first single channel radios (to about 1969).
In middle of 1960th or so they started to produce reed radios also, called Transmutone (see image below) that was a 10 ch reed. In end of 1960th they started to produce proportinal radios that the called Digiplex (see images below) and continued to 1973 when production of radio control unitsfor planes etc ceased (but they continued to produce radio controls for other industrial commercial purposes).

/Bo


User manual for "GYRON" servo mechanism ( about 1959 -> )

If You follow the instructions below You will get most out of the
"GYRON" and You will find that
GYRON is 100% reliable
GYRON offer greater advantages then any previous mechanism



General about GYRON mounting and usage
GYRON must be mounted with a slight side angle to prevent bending
tendency that occur via pull linkage to the rudder horn. The horns that
is shipped with the unit should be mounted so that a standing still
GYRON gives left rudder.
For the pull linkage use piano wire 1,25 mm. The suppled brass rings are
mounted on the linkrod and soldered there so as the rubber tube linkage is
achieved at the GYRON and at the rudderhorn (30-50 mm from rudder horn
and outside the fuselage). Om boats it is enough with one such rubber
tube linkage. For the pull linkage attachment to the rudder horn a
safetyconnection must be in use. Use a rubberband for a pull force
on the left side of the rudder horn. Rubber band should be as long as
possible and it must be easy to adjust the tension. Approximately right
tension is when right and left deflection is with same speed of motion.
Let and right deflections should be blocked to the suitable deflection
angles for each model. A piano wire (0.75 mm) that is soldered on each
rudderhorn and pointed forward against the fin where the wire is bent
to give suitable deflection angle is an easy solution on the rudder
limit deflections.



Important
For a GYRON to work good it is neccessary withsoft
mounting, GYRON must be placed on a soft foam rubber material (10-20 mm
thick). Both the soft foam rubber and the GYRON must be bonded with
PLIBOND - a new revolotionary glue - that guarentee a firm but at the
same time soft attachment of both Standard-GYRON and Super-GYRON. (One
tube PLIBOND cost 1:75 SEK).
Apply glue 2 times both on the soft foam rubber and GYRON with PLIBOND
before assembly is made (follow instructions for the glue).
A glue string of 8 mm width applied under the external tube on GYRON
is enough for enough strength.
On boats a balanced rudder must always be used. Maximum rudder
deflection on a boat is approx 22 degrees. If not enough stearing is
achieved with that the rudder area must be increased.



Flying instructions
Use small defelections to start with!
Check that left deflection is not exeeding 2-4 degrees. Too large
deflections on first flight (before more experience is achieved) will
easy result in a crash. Therefore make the first flight with the left
rudder deflection very small and then You will be successful from the
start.
After a while the deflection can be increased for steeper turns but
still with secure starts. Adjustment is made on the rubber tube outside
the fuselage. After some practice You will find how easy and secure You
will fly with a GYRON in the model.



Some advice with pulsing for proportional control with GYRON:
Check how deep the transmitting button must be pushed to give good
contact. It is easier to get the right pulse rythm if the thumb motion
is minimum. Check the rudder from behind when pulsing with the button
and exercise a rythm of equal signals and pauses. Pulse rythm does not
need to be fast! The rudder (with the rubber band properly adjusted)
should have a similar swinging motion around neutral position.
Ifsignal lenght is inreased or decreased the rudder will be more to the
right or to the left. After practice and with a pulse of about 1-2
pulses per second a very good proportional stearing can be achieved.
Use of a pulsebox outside the transmitter is not needed.
To get most out of a Super-GYRON as rudder mechanism it is important
that following is used at mounting and pulsating:
Pull linkage rod is placed in inner hole at rudder horn (so short
moment arm is achieved). That way a faster deflection is achieved by
shorter movement of the arm in the GYRON. Pulsation of Super-GYRON must
be made in very slow pace. For maximum deflection to the RIGHT a long
signal must NOT be used but instead long signals with short pauses.
For maximum LEFT deflection the signal must not cease completely but
instead the GYRON motor should be held in slow rotation but without
rudder deflection is achieved.



Specifications:
Standard-GYRON
Diameter 30 mm, lenght 70 mm
Weight: 60 gram
Voltage: 1,5-4,5 volt
Current: Approx 150 mAh



Super-GYRON
Diameter 30 mm, lenght 100 mm
Weight: 110 gram
Voltage: 3-6 volt
Current: Approx 50 mAh (due to more effiecient Distler motor)



Manufacturer: Engineering company TELECONTROL, Insjön, Sweden

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:02 PM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)

Hi,

I forgot to tell that Telepilot singel channel transmitters had slightly different appearance during the years they was in production.
In 1955 the transmitter looked like the one in first picture below (nice "purse"!).
In about 1957-1958 the box was according to image 2 (black box, that is such radio I have but radio in image has a amp metern, I think it is,mounted that was not standard).
In about 1958 the box was acording to image 3.
In about 1959 to 1969 the box was according to image 4 (notice that this box has two push buttons!)
There was also a marine radio produced with a "stick" that you could move right-left with neutral spring loaded position.
Later versions of the singel channel Telepilot was transistorised both in TX and RX andwavetype could be A1 (standard),A2 (enhanced version eliminating interference with other transmitters)and it was also a third tonemodulated version.

The funny thing about the transmitter boxes (except the first version) was that they was actually lunchboxes... so they was originallyused for having lunch meals in them to take to work.

/Bo
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:55 AM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)

Bo,

Thanks for the history of Telepilot, interesting reading.
I think your receiver battery problem is solved, or not?
1.5 Volt filament, plate tension 22.5 - 45 Volt and 3 Volt for the gyro.

When looking at the photograph of the transmitter inside, post 1, we see a coil in the back of the casing and it seems to be in the connection line of the antenna . This can be the coil for a BLC.(Base loaded coil). The natural length of the quarter wave 27 MHz antenna is 2,75 m and too long to handle.That's the reason of shortening with a coil in one of these positions (Base, Center or Top). Length of the antenna and value of that coil are related to each other.
We normally use a (grid)dipper to find out these kind of wavelength depended parts of the transmitter, also the coil and capacitor combo's.
In the last post of you we see two transmitters with an indicator. Can these be a plate current indicator instead of battery voltage. Plate current also can be used (in some cases) to adjust the transmitter.

Success Cees
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:11 AM
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Default RE: Source for missing/broken vintage TX antennas (27 MHz)



Hi,

A little update on the antenna for my Telepilot 1 ch radio.
I was able to find a brand new antenna for it, it is a two piece antenna, 125 cm / 49.2 inch long.
Not bad.
I have new tubes on order (rested) but should arrive later in December from the supplier.

I got a almost new Telepilot "Digiplex 3" (3 ch) proportinal made about 1971 some timeago.
I will try to find an antenna for that radio also - missing of course...
It is a real nice radio that You hold in one hand and have the throttle on the top of the case.
It is a 27 MHz radio and it should benice object for adding a2.4 GHz module and start to useit again.
For servos it was used back in the days Multiplex mini servos with rotary servo arm or EK Logictrol
Mini Mite linier servos.The missing originalDigiplex 3 ch receiver will be very difficult to findbut
it is not that important right now.
As a side note about the 3 ch Digiplex radio: I remember when I sat at age 11-12 or so at the libabry
and read the hobby magazine "Allt om hobby" (All about hobby), it was issue nr 4 1971 I found out later (and I have that issue now),
and dearmed about a Digiplex 3 radio. It was rather exensive (all Digiplex was - probably whey the production ended in 1973
when Futaba and other makes came with their cheap radios) back then. In 1971 Digiplex 3 with 3 servos (and charger plus 225 mAh NiCd)
had a pricetag of 1145 SEK excluding VAT and that is about US $172. Well 40 years later I have this radio so... better latethen never.

Does not work to upload images now but I will upload somewhen it works gain.
Worked to upload images today so here they come.

/Bo

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