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Gilmore Red Lion Build

Old 05-01-2015, 08:43 AM
  #301  
Melchizedek
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Robert,
Thanks, luck is always a welcome friend.
Hopefully I did my homework well. Time will tell

Thanks , David
But would never consider giving Robert a run.
It's guys like him that gave me the courage to build this big.
It's guys like him that make me want to be a better modeler.

Spent the morning sanding and polishing.
Sanded both plugs to 1000 wet.
Then used a product called Finesse-it 2 and an electric buffer.
Use the Finesse-it cause that's what our finishers at work use.

Had 2 goals,
Not to burn thru
And to achieve a Class A finish on the plugs.

Did not burn thru, and probably ended up with a class A- or B+.
But I am happy that it will make a fine surface to mold to. Yea !!!!!! no more sanding





Kevin
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Old 05-01-2015, 12:49 PM
  #302  
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Looks great from what I see. And I am happy to break the news to you Kevin, you are every bit a craftsman as I. Hah! Probably more so from what I have seen.
Old 05-01-2015, 12:59 PM
  #303  
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Looks great I vote for not feathering the blisters in smooth and make it look authentic.

Pete
Old 05-01-2015, 04:00 PM
  #304  
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Thanks Robert for your kind words my friend.

Pete,
After further thought, the blisters will not get feathered in and rivets will be in order.
In the initial iteration of the blister, the flange was very flat and pronounced. Didn't look quiet right.
After feathering the flange to a thinner edge and elongating the fillet. Batabing Bataboom, "Just right" (quote from Goldie Locks )

The cowl has had the parting plane installed, seam filled with mold clay, waxed 4 times and has just had part all sprayed on it.
One disappointing setback. I thought I had enough cloth to mold the whole cowl. Tragically, only enough to do the front .
Will have to order more and wait. Did I tell you waiting is my favorite past time . sarc off.


All the material that I am using came from a start up kit from ACP composites. I bought this kit 2 years ago knowing I would be crossing this bridge eventually.
It was supposed to be enough to do 2 or three cowls. Regular ones, Not 1/3 scale basketball tee's.
Silly me for not taking inventory before beginning.


This is the clay for sealing the parting seam.


It does just what it says. It did take me about an hour to fill the seam. It was tedious and no fun.
I started filling the seam before waxing the cowl. Thought I would just wax it up when the plan was set.
Then it hit me. All this hardened clay is going to be a mother to get this plane released later.
So I undid what I began and took the cowl out and waxed the upper wring real good.
Then put it back together and proceeded. I used a squared off credit card to make a clean corner.
Next I waxed everything 3 times and then sprayed Part All film release on all the surfaces.



The parting plane consisted of 2 pieces of 1/4 inch melamine.
I used 2 cause the panel was bowed. So I cut 2 pieces and glued then outy to outy.
It was only necessary to clamp the edges this way. Also equal apposing bows cancel each other out and wala, straight panel.

Kevin
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Old 05-01-2015, 04:05 PM
  #305  
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I use their products also, great stuff, but be warned the resins cure time will be 3-4 times longer. Or they were for me, they cured just as well as new but much longer in doing so.
Old 05-01-2015, 04:50 PM
  #306  
Melchizedek
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Robert,

I am using West System epoxy. Like there stuff.

Gel coat on. Mixture of Powdered Graphite and Colloidal Silica.
Mixed to ketchup thickness. Got a little thicker (please no bubbles) Calling all Luck ?



Kevin
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Old 05-01-2015, 05:02 PM
  #307  
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Ohhhh, your going the McDaddy route.
Old 05-01-2015, 08:03 PM
  #308  
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First half laid up

First up after gel coat flashed over I mixed up some chopped CF and did a fillet in the upper and lower corners so the glass would bridge.
Then
I think it was 9 oz glass.
Cut on the bias in triangles larger than quarter of the ring so that there was ample cross over.
2 full layers were layed down and then a core mat (kinda like a sponge honeycomb, it cam in the kit from ACP).
Then 2 more full layers and then some cross banding around the bullnose.

This all was just a guess by me for what would be good and stout for a mold. I hope so.



Sure am curious what that's going to look like when it comes off there. Will have to wait and see until I get the rest of the material to do the other half.

Kevn
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Old 05-02-2015, 06:39 AM
  #309  
Melchizedek
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WoHooooooo!!!!!

Pulled the parting plane this morning. Very good omen.
I heard Captain Lucky ridding off in the distance

Strangle enough it looks like the melamine parting board with the little surface texture and everything .

The flange appears to be strong enough (it can be made to flex.)

One thing I forgot to do was mold interlocking bumps in the flange. I will have to hard glue bumps to the flange before molding the cone section.
Boy if it looks like this in the crevasses I will be pumped.




Kevin
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Old 05-02-2015, 02:03 PM
  #310  
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Okay Kevin, here is my view: It's people like you and Robert (and many others) that make me want to quit! Your stuff just looks so awesome and you make me doubt myself! Onward I must press though, never give up!
Old 05-02-2015, 03:01 PM
  #311  
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These guys I'm sure felt the same at one point. But I'm with you though.
Old 05-02-2015, 03:35 PM
  #312  
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We still do!
Old 05-02-2015, 05:38 PM
  #313  
Melchizedek
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Press on David,
I so want to see that Pepsi scheme gracing your California sky.
You got work to do, On behalf of many. "Get with it my friend "

I have a correction on the weight cloth I used for the mold. It is 6 oz

Though there wasn't enough cloth to finish the cowl.
There was plenty to do the itsy bitsy blister.

I used 8 layers of cloth plus that honeycomb core.
I wanted this mold to be beefy. Why, you ask ?
I am planning to use vacuum to press the blister layup.
I wanted to make sure the mold did not distort. Hoping to lay a blister up tomorrow.



The mold making really is not that difficult (at least what I have done to date) It's more tedious than difficult.
All the sanding prep was the hard part. The trick is, something has to carry you thru the grunt work.
That something is the image in my head of the finished product.

If you can build an rc airplane, you can mold.
If you can mold, you can build any plan you want and not need a kit.
Fiberglass specialties makes a 1/4 scale cowl and pants for the Red Lion.
One of the reasons I chose to do 1/3 scale is cause it would force me to grow in my hobby.

Kevin
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Old 05-02-2015, 06:02 PM
  #314  
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I know what you mean about the extra strength. On that canopy I glassed for a plug, well, 5 ply 5.6oz glass did not hold. It definitely needed the inner stiffener. I have an order with CST for glass, stiffener, and carbon powder. The next one will be strong enough, especially being I read their tutorial, even if after the fact. Sometime I want to try and make a cowl and just may do so on the next build being the cowl is wrong for what I want.
Needless to say I am watching your work with great interest. This figuring things out after doing it wrong gets expensive.
Old 05-02-2015, 06:19 PM
  #315  
Melchizedek
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Its not exactly cheep if you start with the right recipe.

One thing I did that I did not document well was chopped CF and epoxy mix to fill the inner corners after the gel coat flashed over.
The chopped CF is cheep and don't take much to make a past.
I used it in the corners cause I thought it would strengthen them more than the powdered CF.
The dificulty with the chopped CF mix is it trys to become one. Like a wet mop.
It took some time to get it to lay well in the corners but I think the effort was worth it.
Once I got it to lay in the corners. I spread another layer of epoxy and went right over it with the glass.

Kevin
Old 05-02-2015, 06:23 PM
  #316  
acerc
 
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LOL! It is when you do it several times wrong and then figure out the right. I think the filler in the corners is so there is no trapped air and the glass won't stay down on a sharp corner. But I could be wrong therefore will watch and see.
Old 05-03-2015, 02:07 PM
  #317  
Melchizedek
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This morning I did a couple trials with the vacuum bag.
This was done with just the bare mold, no layup. That turned out to be a wise choice.

The trouble was my bag is a thick heavy vinyl. Initial pull up looked great. The flange portion was very distinct, meaning great conforming pressure.
Upon further inspection the heavy bag bridged the deep pocket of the blister, meaning no pressure.
So I undid it and tried again forcing the bag into the pocket before the pressure build up. Got great pressure in the pocket but the bag bunched up on the flange, meaning hit and miss pressure at the flange. The bag material was just to heavy.

So I still plan to vacuum bag the blisters. I ordered some bagging material from Fiberglast. It is called Strechlon 200. It is capable of stretching up to 500 %.
Just the ticket for this application.

The reason I want to bag these, is. Composites are always stronger when they set up under pressure. Also with bleeder cloth the excess resin can be removed from the layup at press up. Making a lighter stronger part.

So in the mean time I did a gravity layup cause I was itching to see my mold make a baby.
I wanted to make sure there was cloth in the slim flange. So I used 4 layers of .75 oz cloth and 2 layers of 6 oz to give it strength on the bubble.
This one will probably be a discard cause it is heavy. There might be a couple of discards until I get strength vs. weight just right.
Remember there are 18 of these. If each one is heavy that will make a lot of extra weight.



While my first baby was gestating I set to work on the wheel spats.
On the cowl I used foam for a plug. The foam was great for shaping but very fragile.
I even put some little dings in the cowl while I was buffing it for the final time.
Those little dings will be in the FG cowl but primer will fix them fast. But still it galled me.

So I opted for MDF for 2 reasons. I got it for nothing (off fall from work). And each inside spat half gets a fairing molded to it. That fairing will be part of that plug half. Easy peasy gluing a fairing to mdf, not so much foam.

The glue up consist of 2 plug half's. No glue between the 2 middle sandwiches. Each plug half as is, is still 1/4 inch narrow. I will glue a 1/4 one sided black melamin to each half black side out. Those 2 black sides of each pair will then get spot glued together. This will give me a nice black center line that won't go away.




Below is the shape I am pursuing. Also if you notice the flange/fairing that gets fashioned and glued to the plug. Each inside half gets this fairing.
Summitry and the correct angle will be elusive. Thank heavens for Bondo.



Onward

Kevin
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Old 05-04-2015, 06:57 AM
  #318  
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Kevin, what are the dimensions of your blisters?
Old 05-04-2015, 08:33 AM
  #319  
Melchizedek
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They are 6 inches from nose to tail.
2 5/16 at the broadest part.
3/4 tall.

Those dimensions are the flange perimeter.
The flange is 1/4 plus minus. Smaller at the nose.

Kevin
Old 05-04-2015, 11:43 AM
  #320  
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Thanks Kevin.
Old 05-08-2015, 04:25 PM
  #321  
Melchizedek
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My glass and streachlon came in 2 days ago but was helping a friend move the last 2 days and didn't have time till tonight.


The Strechlon was thinner than I expected. Think sandwich bag. But seams to be pretty tough. Hoping to get multiple pulls out of same bag. We will see.



It conforms like nobodies business. The PC police would love this stuff. Can't really see in the pic but there is great definition around the flange rim. Meaning pressure.
For this layup I used 2 layers of .75 oz cloth then 1 layer of 6 oz cloth then 2 layers of .75 oz cloth.
In the last layup there was an extra layer of 6 oz. That got deleted this layup.
The first blister was very stout but also resin rich. This layup may prove a little flimsy but we will know tomorrow.

Some of you may have wondered why the long section in front of the blister part of the mold.
In the following pic you will see it was for the vacuum nipple plate to rest on.



After the glass and resin was placed into the mold, a layer of peel ply was placed over that. Then breather cloth over that.
The peel ply keeps breather cloth from being glued to your layup. It also allows the excess resin to be pushed through and get soaked up by the breather cloth. The breather cloth is dual purpose. First to help evacuate atmosphere from bag then to soak up excess resin.

This is what the breather cloth looks like. It comes in 2 weights. This is light weight.



I am hoping this is a good recipe. If it is. It will be the first Blister.

Tomorrow I hope to get the second half of the cowl mold laid up.

Kevin
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Old 05-08-2015, 05:14 PM
  #322  
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Very cool Kevin, hope it turns out right so as to not have to do it again.
Old 05-09-2015, 04:56 AM
  #323  
Melchizedek
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Thanks Robert for the moral support.
And yes vacuum pressing can be very cool indeed, and heart wrenching if you are depending on success on the first go cause you only have so much material.
Example. At work we press up shapes regularly. Most of the time the veneer going on the shape is matched to its neighbor and there is no margin for error. Some errors can be repaired and made to work. But say a rippled panel could be complete failure and a big problem. (the pitfalls of custom work).

So first thing this morning I pulled iteration 2 out of the bag.

First observation. The stretchlon did release from the epoxy but with a little rending. Conclusion. Stretchy bag material will not last if measures are not taken. Next time I will put a little scab of extra stretchy bag material to act as a skin between bag and layup.

When I pulled the part from the mold, initially was very pleased. Light as a feather and potentially strong enough.
After closer inspection I could tell some bridging happened and 2 areas that did not get complete lamination.

Bridging happens when pressure builds up in surrounding areas and there is not enough bag material or veneer/cloth to press down in the crevasses.
In this case it was the cloth not the stretchy. Stretchy is stretchable. Cloth not so much. When I was laying up all 5 ply's I did notice a little bit of bubbles by layer 4. Nothing bad enough that I thought the pressure would squeeze them out. Wrong

Below is a crude example of bridging. In the magnificent drawing to the left is an example of bridging when laying up and outy. Under it is how we work around it at work. To the right of it is an inny. Having never layed up an inny before there is a learning curve.



When pressing shapes there is a lot of manipulation of bagging material to make sure it is down in the crevasses before pressure gets to great.
On a large bag there is time for the manipulation cause of the time to evacuate the bag. You can turn off the pump if needed and manipulate bag.
On my little blister time to evacuate was short of 2 seconds. Not much margin between a little pressure and full pressure.

Any way here is the result. The 1st and2nd pic the second layup is on the right.
3rd and forth pic, if you look close you can see space between plys.



Next iteration will be 2 layers of 6 oz.
No disappointment . This is part of the learning curve.

Kevin
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Old 05-09-2015, 06:09 AM
  #324  
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Question for you, can you pour a PoP cast for the outside and use the halves under vacuum to squeeze instead of bagging?
And in my opinion for what those are I think they would be just fine as is.
Old 05-09-2015, 07:55 AM
  #325  
Melchizedek
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That would be one way of doing it. You would need mold plus one uniform thickness blister on top of mold then pore opposite casting.
Then you would have a male female mold with proper space between. Then you could just mechanically clamp the two molds together with layup between and waffle iron your blister. That is if POP would hold up to 18 press ups.
I don't wish to do the challenge of male female mold. Also bleeding excess resin off would be further challenge to male female mold spacing.

The above is just my thinking. I am doing it this way cause I am familiar with this way to produce a uniform non resin rich part.

Iteration 1 is perfect and strong as all get out but to heavy. I think I could stand on it and not crush it.

Iteration 2 Is a little too soft for 1/3 scale and I could crush it easily with thumb. Think bump on door frame moving model.
Also the two areas that are not fully laminated can be pushed in and out.

The fastest cheapest way I can think of to do this is vacuum form them out of plastic. But I don't wish to go this route.

I think once I get the kinks ironed out this will be easily repeatable. If not, then coarse change.

Kevin

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