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Is dope & fabric covering dead?

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Is dope & fabric covering dead?

Old 03-12-2006, 05:00 AM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

Sig has (or had) a product called STIXIT. You brushed it on the frame, and then used a monokote iron to activate the adhesive . Just laid your Koverall on, and proceeded to iron it down, working the wrinkles out as you go. Works great.

I too, dislike the plastic shrink covering. I always thought it made model aircraft look like toys. I still have a good supply of the old Sig Nitrate, and also have quite a bit of Aerogloss from Pactra. I have been using Randolph dope with great success. You can usually find what you need by contacting Aircraft Spruce, or go to Randolph directly. They are accustomed to dealing with model builders, and do not mind filling special orders in smaller quantities. The prices from Randolph are in line with the quality of thier products.

I wish I knew how to download some photographs of some of my projects, so that I might share them with you. Maybe I'll get one of the local kids to show me how to do it. I built my first model in 1949, and it came out pretty good (if you shut one eye and squinted with the other) been at it ever since, and I wish that the young people today were not into instant gratification of the ARF's. I finally broke down and bought an ARF from one of the more respected names in the business, and what a dissapointment. The entire framework is assembled using hot glue. Even for the retract gear mounting rails and the firewall. I have about 100 hours invested in it now, and it still looks like a toy airplane. Live and learn. Back to the building board and the finishing room for me.

Take care all,
Bill
Old 03-12-2006, 05:15 AM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

America's Hobby Center (still in business) used to have a pocket sized book on covering with dope and tissue, silkspan and silk. I have had several, but over the years they have all gotten away from me. Same with the other pocket sized books that you always received with any order from them. I remember one was on glow engines (the illustrations used the Herkimer Cub .049 with integral tank) Maybe they still have them in stock, or maybe someone else out there has one. (could be one of mine) Good luck. You might be able to find one on line as well. They were free back then, probably cost you a small fortune today.
Bill
Old 03-16-2006, 03:54 AM
  #53  
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

I have been modeling for almost 40 years now and want to do the silk and dope finish. I did try it when I was young, but had terrible results. The beautiful finishes on allot of the big birds at the different meets have inspired me to give it a try once again.
I have a Dave Patrick Models Super Cub that I am about to strip the plastic covering off of. It has a 100"+ wingspan and about a 64" long fuselage. How much Nitrate dope and thinner am I going to need on hand? I don't want to run short in the middle and have to wait for the UPS truck. The model will be finished in a deep red, so will I need a silver undercoat? I need all the tips I can get here.

Thanks, Mark
Old 03-16-2006, 05:30 AM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?


ORIGINAL: TripleDeucer

I have a Dave Patrick Models Super Cub that I am about to strip the plastic covering off of. It has a 100"+ wingspan and about a 64" long fuselage. How much Nitrate dope and thinner am I going to need on hand? I don't want to run short in the middle and have to wait for the UPS truck. The model will be finished in a deep red, so will I need a silver undercoat? I need all the tips I can get here.

Thanks, Mark

Mark,
I assume that your Cub is a gasser, right? You should start the doping process by brushing a few thinned nitrate coats on structure then applying the covering. I assume that you will be using Coverall? Anyway, stick the fabric down with nitrate then cover and shrink. Brush thinned nitrate into the raw fabric then follow with butyrate. I would also recommend applying silver to protect the fabric from UV light then go to your color coats.

Try this:
Nitrate dope - 1 gallon
Nitrate thinner - 2 gallons
Butyrate dope - 1 gallon
Butyrate thinner - 2 gallons
Silver build up - 1/2 gallon
Pigmented butyrate - 1/2 gallon

BTW, nitrate is flammable and it is highly recommended to topcoat with butyrate which will retard combustion.

Take a look at these sites:
http://www.airtechcoatings.com/
http://www.conaircraft.com/
http://www.polyfiber.com/
http://www.stits.com/
Old 03-17-2006, 04:17 AM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

Mike, Thanks for the reply. I am using an OS 160 twin FS for power. I also have enough Koverall to do the job. I have plans to do a 1/3rd scale Super Cub down the road a ways. I'm hoping for better results this time around. Do you put the fabric on wet or do you wet it afterwards to shrink it?
Seems like allot of dope and thinner, but I can always use it up later on.

Thanks again, Mark
Old 03-17-2006, 01:03 PM
  #56  
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?


ORIGINAL: TripleDeucer

Mike, Thanks for the reply. I am using an OS 160 twin FS for power. I also have enough Koverall to do the job. I have plans to do a 1/3rd scale Super Cub down the road a ways. I'm hoping for better results this time around. Do you put the fabric on wet or do you wet it afterwards to shrink it?
Seems like allot of dope and thinner, but I can always use it up later on.

Thanks again, Mark

Mark,
Silk is usually put on wet, actually lightly dampened with a spray bottle. Coverall is put on dry then heat shrunk with a temperature calibrated iron. Yes, it seems like a lot of dope but much of it will be used if you spray. The leftovers can be used towards your next project. PS: Nitrate is not fuel proof while butyrate is.
Old 03-23-2006, 08:37 PM
  #57  
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?


ORIGINAL: Frank Schwartz

I still use dope and silk on my 1/2A Texaco planes and tissue and dope on my rubber band stuff...for the R/C planes I use Monokote...and I was one of the last to give in and use Monokote...and as far as iron on plastic, it is, in my opinion, still the best of its type.
I am going to start building a GHQ Sportster and cover it with silk and dope....might even get my old GHQ to run, and if so will put it in the plane....
Also have a big Buccaneer covered in silk and dope...silk is expensive nowadays, but dope can be had in pints, quarts and gallons from Sig and Penn Hobby Center..who also carry lots of stick old time type kits...
Hi Frank,
Greetings from Sunny Florida. I just know you are freezing your Tookus off up off New Shackle Island Road.

Guys, if you have not tried rag and dope finishes, you don't know what you're missing. The plane in the photo is a 1/4 scale Corben Super Ace, and believe it or not, the finish is over 10 years old. It still looks and flies like new. The fabric is Sig Koverall (polyester woven cloth about .5oz/sq ft and it shrinks both machine direction and cross direction about equally using a heat gun. I stuck mine down using nitrate dope, but you can use stixit or perhaps another heat sensitive adhesive. The finish is Sig Butyrate dope, but andrews works as well. I have even used clear dope as a filler/primer and finished using automotive urethane color and clear with good results. This covering method gives a more, "Honest" effect than you can get with iron on films. Kind of like polished aluminum has more, "Character" than chrome. Frank, come see me, and bring planes.
Bill (AMA 4720)
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Old 03-23-2006, 10:53 PM
  #58  
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

I have noticed on the Sig website, you can't buy dope in colors any more in any bigger than a pint. Must be the new owner or haz-mat charges and restrictions. Makes it pretty spendy to finish anything large.
Old 03-24-2006, 05:43 AM
  #59  
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?


ORIGINAL: TripleDeucer

I have noticed on the Sig website, you can't buy dope in colors any more in any bigger than a pint. Must be the new owner or haz-mat charges and restrictions. Makes it pretty spendy to finish anything large.
You can get both Nitrate and Butyrate in most any size that you want from Randolph, Aircraft Spruce Supply, or probably from your local Fixed Base Operator (if they have a repair facility). I even found a small supply at (of all places) HobbyTown. and it was even Aerogloss. (probably just luck on my part) The biggest headache with getting dope shipped to you, is the HazMat surcharge. Sometimes that charge is more than the product costs. I would reccomend buying at least in gallon lots. Keep it stored correctly, and it lasts for years. Share it with a friend, or even split the order with someone in your area that is doing a covering project (at least for the clear, thinner and silver base) You never know, you might form a lasting friendship, and one or the other may learn a new technique from the other guy.

Side note to you new guys. Learn from those of us who are the Old Farts before we all die off. I mean the stuff it took us 50 or 60 years to learn. We are willing to teach, and share what we have found out the hard way. (note: leave attitude at home) [8D]
Old 03-24-2006, 09:18 AM
  #60  
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

Mark,

The model will be finished in a deep red, so will I need a silver undercoat? I need all the tips I can get here.

You have some really great advice given here. I might also add something since I see you live in WA with it's rain and humidity. Randolph's makes a product called 'Blush Retarder'. Butyrate or Nitrate dope will blush (hazy whitish discoloration) when sprayed on during a high humidity time period. Deep red or the darker colors will really show it too.

If you have a humidity/temp controlled spray booth to paint in, you probably don't need it, but I don't have that luxury, so I use the retarder.

Just a thought which I hope will help,

Scott
Old 03-24-2006, 11:11 AM
  #61  
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

Bill, thanks for the info. I have been surfing around and been to the other sites you mention. I haven't noticed what their haz-mat charges are.
You mention Aerogloss dope as if it were special. What do you like about it over the others? There is a HobbyTown shop in a neighboring city that I'm going to this weekend. If they have any, I will buy it. Is Aerogloss compatible with other brands?
What bites me is in the years past, I have gotten small amounts of dope in swap shop stuff and discarded it thinking that it was a thing of the past and would never use it. Live and learn.

Thanks, Mark
Old 03-24-2006, 11:21 AM
  #62  
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

Scott, Your thinking of the Seattle area of Washington state. I live on the east side of the Cascades which is much drier. In fact, some parts are dry desert land.
Right now it looks like rain is coming since I was planning on flying today.

Thanks for your thoughts. I may need your info yet.

Mark
Old 03-24-2006, 12:11 PM
  #63  
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

with the technology increase in fabric designs. its a natural process to leave the old ways in the old days... with that being said... too much great info get lost!!!! a nice thing about the internet, you old guys who have puter skillz,you can put your knowledge in places like this to be preserved for the ages..... afcousre some get lost in translation of speech to text, but its better than no info from our elder mentors/counterparts....

i d be interested in seeing what the next few yrs bring in covering with the use of nano technologies in the material industry....
i was wondering about the use of just plain ole 70s type polyester... i see a few posts about it... seems with the "stretchy" tendencies of poly, it would lend itself well to covering..
great thread,,,, i ve been wanting to do a none mono/ultracote covering,,, and this thread has been most helpfull.. thanx for all the contribuitions posted.. this will make the job for a newb like myself to get good results...

Tim
Old 03-24-2006, 03:35 PM
  #64  
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

Some thoughts on retarders. Dope has the tendency to absorb moisture when it has been applied to a surface, especially if that surface is a cooler temperature than the ambient air. A good tip is to save the retarder for your final pigmented coats. Don't use it on your clear coats, it will clear up as you build up the finish. By mixing it with your color coats, the retarder will "slow down" the cure rate, allowing the dope to level out for a bright, shiny finish. Usually my last coat is a mix of 40% pigment, 20% thinner and 40% retarder. Needless to say, you should not touch the finish for at least a week. If you are spraying outside, have at least a 80 degree (F) temp and bright sunlight. You can have a high humidity day but if you have these conditions, moisture absorbtion is low. If you have a 100% humidity, there ain't enough retarder in the country to help you, wait for a better day. If you are fortunate enough to spray in controlled conditions, you won't use as much retarder so your ratios will be less. My final shot is a mix of retarder and thinner sprayed on the entire surface to give an even, glossy finish. I lightly wet sand with 600 or better wet paper to smooth things out, knock down any mask lines, etc. before spraying.

Back in the days of the AMA/Navy NATS, the Testor Company sponsored a "Best Finish" award. Usually these were control line scale planes as weight was not as much a consideration.
Old 03-24-2006, 03:38 PM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

Huh? (In reply to Timmahh)

Nothing really all that special about Aerogloss, other than it normally has a better sheen than Sig or some of the others. One other that I forgot about is Stitz. They might have the best selection, and they do package for smaller orders.

Just a hint....build something cheap...really cheap, like cobble up a dummy wing and learn to cover that, then tear it off and do it again (I know that can get to be tedious and a little expensive, but better the dummy wing or fuselage than the wonderful scale structure that you have lobored on for months and then you risk ruining it before you learn how to do it right). (IMHO)
Old 03-24-2006, 03:45 PM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

ORIGINAL: TripleDeucer

The model will be finished in a deep red, so will I need a silver undercoat?

Thanks, Mark

Prep the frame and apply the covering using nitrate, brush a couple of very thin coats of nitrate clear into the raw fabric then switch to butyrate clear. Build up a few coats of clear then go to silver pigmented (buildup) dope. Silver will protect the fabric and prevent the pigment finish from taking on that opaque look. After that apply a white base. This allows the red to be a consistent color. Oh yeah, after your initial brush coats, apply all of your clear, silver, white and pigmented coats by spray. It will eliminate a lot of wet sanding. When you do sand, use 600 with dish detergent mixed in the water. Flush with clean water after sanding and dry with a clean terrycloth towel.

Practice, practice, practice. As my old A&P instructor said, "Your next one will be better".
Old 03-24-2006, 04:42 PM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?



[/quote]



Practice, practice, practice. As my old A&P instructor said, "Your next one will be better".
[/quote]


Ain't it the truth. I've been doing this stuff for nearly 57 years now, and I hope to get the next one exactly right.
Old 03-25-2006, 07:47 PM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

Thought I'd post this paint compatability chart. Almost forgot that I had it Might come in handy to someone on this forum.

Scott
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Old 03-25-2006, 09:21 PM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

Lordy, thanks for that chart. Makes life a little more liveable. (at least reduces the pucker factor)
Old 03-27-2006, 11:27 AM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

I to like to cover my builds in fabric. The last plane I covered, a G. P. ElectiCub, was with Koveral with nitrate dope and iron to shrink. I put on about 6-7 coates of dope sanding between each coat. The dope was put on with a sponge brush. For color I used high gloss latex which gave it a really nice shiney finish. All of the paint was put on with a sponge brush.

The question is; do you get a smoother finish from spray painting versus spong or brush painting. I put about 8 coats on and you can not see any seams or fabric overlay. I am just not sure if there is a way to totally eliminate the brush marks other than spraying. I also final coated with water base polyurethane.

I would also, like some opinions on using and applying multi-colors and designs (such as taping, feathering, etc.).

Also would like opinions of the best way to create decals ( software, paper, etc ) and how to apply. Would love to hear from someone who actually paint their decals.

Any words of wisdom and techniques would be appreciated.

David
Old 03-27-2006, 03:48 PM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

There was an article, years ago in a motorcycle magazine dealing with using a polymer medium and creating decals from print. I tried it, and the UV took the color out of the print after a couple of months. I suppose that there is an UV inhibitor that can be purchased for that purpose. I have been using my local window tint store (automotive). Most of them have scanners/plotters and they can duplicate virtually any subject in multi colors (some of them use multiple lay-up to accomplish this) So you have to be careful that the decal (vinyl) doesn't bulk up. I use this exclusively for numbers and stripes. Normally I use 2 colors max, and the results have been fantastic. If your area does not have this ability, you can contact me by P.M. and I will give you the name and phone number of a company that can do it for you. I would post this info., but it is probably in violation of the rules.
Old 04-24-2006, 03:52 AM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

HI,

I recovered an old Scientific Miss America wing is tissue and slik this weekend. It was the first try in 25 Years and I completely forgot how much work it was. I also forgot how great the results were an how much fun it is.

I have a bit of problems when applying the silk over the tissue and applying dope to the surface. The tissue sags out below the silk and when drying, the silk get taught first and catches some wrincles in the tissue. (I solve this by wetting these areas with thinners and drying it quickly in form of a space heater/.)

Do you apply the wall paper paste all over the silk (not just for attaching the silk to the edges?)

I have used (for many years previously) sanding sealer in place of dope. It is easily obtainable at any hardware store is cheap and works beautifully.

Regards
Attie
Old 04-25-2006, 11:19 AM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

So long as I'm alive, dope and silk will be in fashion.

88

Kraus
Old 04-25-2006, 11:52 AM
  #74  
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

ORIGINAL: airbatic

So long as I'm alive, dope and silk will be in fashion.

Kraus
LONG live Kraus! [8D]
Old 04-25-2006, 01:17 PM
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Default RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?

Why Thank You Vasek.

Something strange going on. Some of my posts along with others have disappeared. One thread of eight responses yesterday is only two responses.

But Thank You Again Vasek.

88

Kraus

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