Is dope & fabric covering dead?
04-25-2006, 07:26 PM
#76
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
ORIGINAL: airbatic
Why Thank You Vasek.
Something strange going on. Some of my posts along with others have disappeared. One thread of eight responses yesterday is only two responses.
But Thank You Again Vasek.
88
Kraus
Why Thank You Vasek.
Something strange going on. Some of my posts along with others have disappeared. One thread of eight responses yesterday is only two responses.
But Thank You Again Vasek.
88
Kraus
04-27-2006, 10:59 AM
#77
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
Koverall is a woven polyester. The shrinkage rate is very predictable both in the weave and the warp direction. Does not take a lot of heat to get it moving, so be careful not to get too aggressive with the heat, since this material can crush structures. Helpful hint... never exceed 256 deg celsius. The whole thing will melt.
04-27-2006, 02:30 PM
#78
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
There may be an error on that compatibility guide. Acrylic laquer is compatible with Butyrate. At least it will go on top of Butyrate, not sure about the other way around.
11-30-2008, 01:07 PM
#79
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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
ORIGINAL: balsaworks
The wallpaper paste in the photo is perhaps a bit on the thick side, but it´s still easy to brush.
This wing can easily be covered with a single piece of silk, by folding over the leading edge.
I started with the bottom and attached at the center section first, by first laying the silk in place and then brushing wallpaper paste through the silk onto the wing.
The wallpaper paste in the photo is perhaps a bit on the thick side, but it´s still easy to brush.
This wing can easily be covered with a single piece of silk, by folding over the leading edge.
I started with the bottom and attached at the center section first, by first laying the silk in place and then brushing wallpaper paste through the silk onto the wing.
somegeek
11-30-2008, 01:53 PM
#80
Senior Member
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
ORIGINAL: somegeek
What is the advantage of using wallpaper paste to adhere silk to a doped surface?
somegeek
What is the advantage of using wallpaper paste to adhere silk to a doped surface?
somegeek
I find it easier to use wallpaper paste because it lets you adhere the silk without disturbing the doped surface underneath.
I have tried to use dope for this step, but as it dissolves the doped paper underneath it gets messier. I get air bubbles and an uneven surface
The wallpaper paste does not seem to leave any residue and leaves a very even surface which is completely airproof and still has some weave structure. One or two more coats of dope will seal the silk and the weave pattern will still remain
Using water-based wallpaper glue to apply the silk will provide added shrinking (like covering with wet silk)
It is more environment-friendly to slosh something water-based instead of thinner or dope over the entire wing - you can work inside with closed windows for this step.
There may be other advantages that I´m not aware of. It just works really well for me.
12-04-2008, 03:34 PM
#81
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
It's not dead in my shop! I haven't monokoted a plane in over 15 years. I cover all my open structure type planes with fabric and Nitrate dope. Top coat will be either Butryrate or paint.
12-06-2008, 04:00 AM
#82
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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
Fabric covering is alive and well in my shop but a bit different..
This one is Polyester dress lining applied and filled with polycryllic, latex primer, rattle can color and final coated with water based poly urethane..
Not quite as fuel proof as dope but no odor except for the rattle can color coats..
This plane is 2 years old now and flown with 15% nitro.. No fuel related damage so far.. Just be sure to clean it within a few hours of flying.
This one is Polyester dress lining applied and filled with polycryllic, latex primer, rattle can color and final coated with water based poly urethane..
Not quite as fuel proof as dope but no odor except for the rattle can color coats..
This plane is 2 years old now and flown with 15% nitro.. No fuel related damage so far.. Just be sure to clean it within a few hours of flying.
12-06-2008, 03:54 PM
#83
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
I think you'll find that the 'Wallpaper paste' deal was the method used to apply silk over the doped tissue covered airframe. This has two advantages, the amount of paste used is not much, and it dries light, and the amount of dope needed to seal the silk is minimal. Many of the F/F scale guys still use the method as it reproduces the surface texture of the old fabric covered airplanes with the minimum of weight, important for contest F/F scale.
Evan, WB #12.
Evan, WB #12.
12-18-2008, 11:11 AM
#84
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
They are still using dope on fabric for real vintage plane restorations. You can get dope, etc. from aircraft supply companies. Trying to find Aerogloss in anything but Cub Yellow or Black in your local hobby shop is all but impossible, usually thinner is sold in one ounce bottles.
12-19-2008, 02:00 AM
#85
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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
ORIGINAL: Mike Denest
Once you get the hang of it, applying a silk covering job is easy. The art is to get your dope coats sag free. I don't use tissue at all, I give the structure at least two or three coats of nitrate everywhere the silk is going to touch and lightly sand prior to applying the silk. Then I apply the silk wet, keeping a spray bottle handy to add just enough moisture to keep it from drying too fast. My first coats are nitrate thinned 70 - 30 thinner to dope using a high quality brush applied around the edges. As I work out the wrinkles, I keep the area I'm working wet with dope. Once covered and trimmed, I apply at least three coats of nitrate minimum then go to butyrate, spraying at least four coats, lightly wet sanding between each. Since pigmented butyrate is opaque, I spray two coats of aluminum pigmented butyrate, sanding the first coat. It will protect the silk from UV light and make the pigmented colors more uniform. Then I'll spray the color. Yeah, it's a lot of work but I can show you a twenty year old airplane that still looks pretty good. Oh yeah, make sure you have lots of ventilation! Another trick working with silk is not to get it too loose or too tight. Loose, it will look like a wrinkled old elephant and will take a few days to tighten up and too tight, it will twist like a pretzel over time.
Once you get the hang of it, applying a silk covering job is easy. The art is to get your dope coats sag free. I don't use tissue at all, I give the structure at least two or three coats of nitrate everywhere the silk is going to touch and lightly sand prior to applying the silk. Then I apply the silk wet, keeping a spray bottle handy to add just enough moisture to keep it from drying too fast. My first coats are nitrate thinned 70 - 30 thinner to dope using a high quality brush applied around the edges. As I work out the wrinkles, I keep the area I'm working wet with dope. Once covered and trimmed, I apply at least three coats of nitrate minimum then go to butyrate, spraying at least four coats, lightly wet sanding between each. Since pigmented butyrate is opaque, I spray two coats of aluminum pigmented butyrate, sanding the first coat. It will protect the silk from UV light and make the pigmented colors more uniform. Then I'll spray the color. Yeah, it's a lot of work but I can show you a twenty year old airplane that still looks pretty good. Oh yeah, make sure you have lots of ventilation! Another trick working with silk is not to get it too loose or too tight. Loose, it will look like a wrinkled old elephant and will take a few days to tighten up and too tight, it will twist like a pretzel over time.
I'm not at that stage yet, and hopefully I never will, but just in case...
I'm working on my First covering using silk! I've been ironing plastic on my planes for over 25 years, only using dope over tissue for rubber F/F wayyy back then as well.
Also, I just applied my first piece, bottom of the stab on my C/G Falcon 56 lll. I dyed the silk so it became "crumply" in the process. I applied the piece as was, wrinkles and all, and just worked it out best as I could. Should it have been ironed out smooth? Or would that have ruined the silk?
Thanks in advance,
DM
12-30-2008, 11:42 PM
#86
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
There are two types of butyrate dopes, tautening and non-tautening. I always use non-tautening because it's shrinkage is about right for model airplanes. Tautening will twist up a structure easily.
Sig from the hobby dealers, or Randolph from Aircraft Spruce is my choice. I'm using Sig right now, polyspan over carbon veil.
My father used to apply silk wet. Then once he had it as pulled out wrinkle free as he could get it (perfectly as I recall) would dope around the edges to tack it down. Once it dried, it shrank tight, and dope was applied on the open bays.
Have fun, and use polyspan on that little Pinto.
Chris...
Sig from the hobby dealers, or Randolph from Aircraft Spruce is my choice. I'm using Sig right now, polyspan over carbon veil.
My father used to apply silk wet. Then once he had it as pulled out wrinkle free as he could get it (perfectly as I recall) would dope around the edges to tack it down. Once it dried, it shrank tight, and dope was applied on the open bays.
Have fun, and use polyspan on that little Pinto.
Chris...
12-31-2008, 10:35 AM
#87
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
What is it we are calling "dope". I'm going to be using the fabric iron covering for the first time but the silk and dope covering fascinates me .. especially if it's cheaper the the 20 bucks a roll fabric iron ons which I may need 2 and half of due to colors.
12-31-2008, 10:44 AM
#88
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
There are several sources for dope, you can buy Sig dope directly from Sig or Tower or you local H/S or you can get dope from a full size aircraft supply store.
I use Sig Koverall fabric for all my R/C planes now and will NEVER go back to using iron on coverings. It is cheaper but it is alot more work than iron on coverings but the results are worth every bit of effort. A good fabric and paint finish will not weigh much more if any than iron on coverings.
This plane was covered with Sig Koverall, the fabric was attached with dope and the weave filled with Minwax Polycrylic then painted with Krylon spray paint.
Anthony
I use Sig Koverall fabric for all my R/C planes now and will NEVER go back to using iron on coverings. It is cheaper but it is alot more work than iron on coverings but the results are worth every bit of effort. A good fabric and paint finish will not weigh much more if any than iron on coverings.
This plane was covered with Sig Koverall, the fabric was attached with dope and the weave filled with Minwax Polycrylic then painted with Krylon spray paint.
Anthony
12-31-2008, 12:49 PM
#89
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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
Traditional "dope", as used in aircraft applications, is basically an acetate-based lacquer paint. It is very aromatic, and can be cleaned-up with regular lacquer thinner or acetone. The vapors are toxic and flammable. The paint dries quite quickly, and you don't have to sand between coats to get the next one to stick...the paint will soften itself. Even dried-on paint can be removed with its thinner.
If you need to thin it for spraying or light weight work, use dope thinner. It's formulated to work with the paint without causing problems. You can use the thinner for cleanup, too. Using other materials for thinning may cause problems with performance.
If you need to thin it for spraying or light weight work, use dope thinner. It's formulated to work with the paint without causing problems. You can use the thinner for cleanup, too. Using other materials for thinning may cause problems with performance.
12-31-2008, 02:55 PM
#90
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
ORIGINAL: Bax
Traditional "dope", as used in aircraft applications, is basically an acetate-based lacquer paint. It is very aromatic, and can be cleaned-up with regular lacquer thinner or acetone. The vapors are toxic and flammable. The paint dries quite quickly, and you don't have to sand between coats to get the next one to stick...the paint will soften itself. Even dried-on paint can be removed with its thinner.
If you need to thin it for spraying or light weight work, use dope thinner. It's formulated to work with the paint without causing problems. You can use the thinner for cleanup, too. Using other materials for thinning may cause problems with performance.
Traditional "dope", as used in aircraft applications, is basically an acetate-based lacquer paint. It is very aromatic, and can be cleaned-up with regular lacquer thinner or acetone. The vapors are toxic and flammable. The paint dries quite quickly, and you don't have to sand between coats to get the next one to stick...the paint will soften itself. Even dried-on paint can be removed with its thinner.
If you need to thin it for spraying or light weight work, use dope thinner. It's formulated to work with the paint without causing problems. You can use the thinner for cleanup, too. Using other materials for thinning may cause problems with performance.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
01-02-2009, 12:26 PM
#91
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
Thank you.... OK... all that seems well within my capabilities.. I have used minwax poly before and I understand from other posters the Krylon paint usually needs to dry completely for a week or two to become fuelproof and some colors do not handle glow fuel well no matter the cure time?
I assume you "stick" down the coverall on all components of the frame (ribs) as opposed to say the perimeter of a wing for example? Is the tightness you initially lay down what you get or does the winwax provide any shrinking when dry. I will make a small test piece to try this as well.
I just read stickbuilder comments earlier in the thread on the heating / shrinking question i posted previously. Apologize for not reading the thread fully !
I was looking on Tower and saw the coverall for 15 for a huge amount Sig Six-it (i assume this is another form of dope?) for applying the fabric. at 14 bucks a can.
I assume you "stick" down the coverall on all components of the frame (ribs) as opposed to say the perimeter of a wing for example? Is the tightness you initially lay down what you get or does the winwax provide any shrinking when dry. I will make a small test piece to try this as well.
I just read stickbuilder comments earlier in the thread on the heating / shrinking question i posted previously. Apologize for not reading the thread fully !
I was looking on Tower and saw the coverall for 15 for a huge amount Sig Six-it (i assume this is another form of dope?) for applying the fabric. at 14 bucks a can.
01-02-2009, 12:33 PM
#92
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
ORIGINAL: sscherin
.......
This plane is 2 years old now and flown with 15% nitro.. No fuel related damage so far.. Just be sure to clean it within a few hours of flying.
.......
This plane is 2 years old now and flown with 15% nitro.. No fuel related damage so far.. Just be sure to clean it within a few hours of flying.
01-02-2009, 12:43 PM
#93
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
Any good household cleaner works okay. Simple green works very well where there is an oily residue. so does Fantastic, 409 and plain old Windex.
Bill, Waco Brother #1
Bill, Waco Brother #1
01-02-2009, 03:37 PM
#94
My Feedback: (11)
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
That is true of Butyrate Dope, but the Nitrate Dope is basically an unthinned NitroCellulose Lacquer. The two are not compatible, other than you can use Butyrate over Nitrate, but not Nitrate over Butyrate.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
ORIGINAL: Bax
Traditional "dope", as used in aircraft applications, is basically an acetate-based lacquer paint. It is very aromatic, and can be cleaned-up with regular lacquer thinner or acetone. The vapors are toxic and flammable. The paint dries quite quickly, and you don't have to sand between coats to get the next one to stick...the paint will soften itself. Even dried-on paint can be removed with its thinner.
If you need to thin it for spraying or light weight work, use dope thinner. It's formulated to work with the paint without causing problems. You can use the thinner for cleanup, too. Using other materials for thinning may cause problems with performance.
Traditional "dope", as used in aircraft applications, is basically an acetate-based lacquer paint. It is very aromatic, and can be cleaned-up with regular lacquer thinner or acetone. The vapors are toxic and flammable. The paint dries quite quickly, and you don't have to sand between coats to get the next one to stick...the paint will soften itself. Even dried-on paint can be removed with its thinner.
If you need to thin it for spraying or light weight work, use dope thinner. It's formulated to work with the paint without causing problems. You can use the thinner for cleanup, too. Using other materials for thinning may cause problems with performance.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
In the past, when I did do a "silk and dope" finish, it was Aerogloss all the way. In fact, I still have a quart can of clear and several pints of color in the cabinet in the garage. A few cans of thinner, too. They are old enough that the cans of colored dope are cans of the stuff before dyes were used. They have actual pigment and are quite opaque. In the late 70's or in the 80's, the maker used dyes instead of solid pigments, and the colors became more transparent.
01-03-2009, 10:27 AM
#95
Banned
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
The reason for using Nitrate is that Nitrate sticks to almost everything, and you can put almost anything over it. Unlike butyrate; the only thing you want to put over butyrate is butyrate.
Les
Les
03-12-2009, 01:58 PM
#96
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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
Hi,
I used to love aero gloss dope back in the day. Aero Gloss changed their formula 15 or so years ago, and now it is not dope. It is acrylic paint. As several have suggested, I buy Certified Coatings dope from Aircraft Spruce. It is a really good product and is fuel proof at least up to 15%. It is not as expensive as Randolph but is as good as far as I can see.
If you are contemplating your first silk'n'dope job be sure that the balsa underneath is completely sealed before putting the silk on. I usually put on 4 or 5 coats thinned about 75%. Be sure that everything that will touch the covering is sealed. I also sand between each coat, making sure to blow or wipe off the wood before the next coat.
I don't have anything against plastic coverings. For me it is just more fun to silk and dope.
James Fuller
03-12-2009, 06:35 PM
#98
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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
It's been a while since I posted here. Three years ago I was asking all kinds of questions in advance of finishing my Dave Patrick Super Cub in silk and dope. I ended up using Sig Koverall and Randolph dope in a changed color scheme. My experience was all positive and had allot of fun. There was allot of work involved, but worth every minute. As others have said "now all my planes need a silk-n-dope finish".
I want to thank everyone on here that gave me such good info to work with.
Here is a photo of me with my S Cub.
I want to thank everyone on here that gave me such good info to work with.
Here is a photo of me with my S Cub.
03-12-2009, 07:47 PM
#99
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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
When I got back into the hobby about 3 years ago I did not think I would even be able to find silk and silk and dope was all I knew. I found out through the forum where I could find reasonably priced silk. It only came in white so I did my first one in white silk then I got brave and died some red then my last one I died some yellow and used yellow and red. I just finished the red and yellow one last week. I just love the look of silk and also enjoy the process.
03-12-2009, 08:37 PM
#100
Senior Member
RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead?
I have read in a couple of places that 100% polyester dress lining purchased in local fabric stores works well, comes 60 inches wide and is a little over 2 bucks a yard. I am build an AMR 50Trainer with a 103" wingspan so I need wide fabric. I was curious if anyone in this thread has used anything like I mentioned above.