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WACO YMF

Old 06-07-2007, 11:25 PM
  #2751
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khodges & Jay, good info THNX!

I'm planning to use a ST G2300 >1.4 (it's for a CMP Sukhoi) so according to the TME manual it's about 3oz/min
i'll run some tests once the engine has been broke in

Jay, please post some test data once you have some, i'm still hoping for a 8 to 10 oz tank. I would hate to load up a aerobatic plane more than necessary. BTW i'm converting a pitts style muffler for the smoke, will use some copper tubing "wrap" to get the oil as hot as possible before feeding it into muffler.

V.

PS. [sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif] for the printing of the tees
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:33 PM
  #2752
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: trlambsr

Boy this is really getting over the top. This old marine Gunny can't even test his Biplane without a pilot. The pictures are old. They are from the early days and I was worried that the pilot was not checked out in the WACO so he stayed on the ground for static only. He is there now but don't have any pictures of him or at least I can't find them.
When you are over 70 things are a little slow and thats why I fly WACO's. My WACO was in the First group and now is almost 4 years old. Many, Many successful flights and some not and the plane has survived some ground loops and pilot errors in the early days. It took me probably 30 flights and the help of a full scale WACO pilot to learn how to land it. Its more like a Warbird than my Sukio. I bring it in Hot (high Idle). No three pointers for me because if you miss its big trouble.
TR
WACO Brotherhood # 69



TR
Thank God, Gunny --
Finally another Marine on here. Doggies, Squids and Airdales all over the place. Maybe you'll square this rabble away! LOL Actually, so far they've done a pretty good job of keeping the Company Area policed and the troops in hand.
Where are you in Bethesda, and where do you fly up there now? We lived in Bethesda in the 70's, first on Madison and then on Hoover Streets, off Old Georgetown Road behind Suburban Hospital. I was a member of DCRC and we flew at the County Landfill off Gude Drive in Rockville. Had a really nice scale contest out at Bealeton -- the Flying Circus Aerodrome -- for several years. I didn't compete in it, but did judge static and flight for three or four years. Oftem thought I'd like to run up there one day and see if there's anyone still around I'd recognize.
Welcome aboard!
Moby Al

(Cpl E4, 0331, USMC Ret)
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Old 06-08-2007, 05:39 PM
  #2753
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well, after a long time of sitting on the shelf I broke open my 1/5th kit today. I got it on Ebay over a year ago. You guys are real inspiration for building these. I am lucky to have access to a real Ymf-5 for scale reference. I just hope I can build this one in less than the six years it took me to build the Skybolt I just finished. At this point I am considering using a Saito 170 radial. Any advice on this?
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Old 06-08-2007, 06:37 PM
  #2754
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Ag,

Go back to page 7, post # 155 by Hughes500, that's the engine he installed. I don't remember hearing how it flew his plane (if its finished), so you might want to PM him to find out.
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Old 06-08-2007, 08:08 PM
  #2755
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APG
All you have to do is make up your mind I am going to get it done Then you can't stop working on it


And would you believe look ho is typing and had better get in gear.
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:10 PM
  #2756
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Just got back from an IMAA fly-in in Statesville NC, about 45 minutes from home. I don't know if it's the heat, gas prices, or what, but not a great turnout, although those who showed up flew a fair amount. the breeze was light most times, but occsionally would get fairly strong. I fretted over whether or not to crank up the UMF, and when I did, noticed the tailwheel had come apart, a solder had broken. I cobbled it back together with some epoxy and a tie wrap, and then flew my other gasser. Jay showed up (damifino) with his co-pilot (son) and we sat around talking, and I decided to go for broke, so I fired up the WACO and Jay spotted for me. The flight was great, and I set up for landing, brought it in, and when I touched down, the main gear broke; the wheel, wheel pant and end of the axle on the left side went bouncing one way, and the stub dug in and the plane nosed over. No damage other than the gear. When we examined the broken wire, it had snapped where the rear piano wire was welded (not brazed or soldered) to the front wire, which becomes the axle stub. Not repairable, and not a failure of one of my mods. I'll have to get another gear from Cox, or copy it and make my own (what an Idea[sm=idea.gif] )

Jay and I talked for some time about my scale tailwheel and making one out of steel instead of brass and piano wire, and also talked about making a set of main gear with the oleo main struts, as in the full scale. Wasn't this discussed before in this thread? If we can come up with something that worked well, how interested would you builders be? At 1/5 scale, it's more difficult than doing it in a larger scale because tolerances get very close, but Jay has the know-how. I'm going to doodle with some designs and try to draw out a prototype and see what we can do with it. I'm getting tired of working on an almost new plane every time I fly it[:@]. It reminds me of my first motorcycle, a 1972 Daytona Triumph. I loved it, it was a great motorcycle, and ran like stink, but I had to adjust or tighten or repair something every time I got on it.

Maybe it's just me
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:47 PM
  #2757
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Ken , I made my tail wheel out of steel brake line ( $3.27 at car parts store). It is 1/4 inch o.d. and 3/16 music wire fits in it perfectly. Brazed it with a flux rod and I don't think I could break it if I tried. Mine is for the 1/4 scale version though.
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:02 PM
  #2758
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Ken,

Sorry to hear about the gear problems. A nice tail wheel (1/4 scale) was done by one of the guys In the Pepino Waco Thread in Scratch Building (post 36, page 2).

I originally wrote to Century Jet in February about the possibility of making 1/5th scale Landing Gear based on the 33% and 40% gear they make for the Genisis WACO's. I have not heard back from Bruce since late March who stated that he would get back with me to work out some items. Based on photos of the Genisis gear and the Cox/Pica ARF, I believe the gear could be constructed on a mount (plate) that would bolt (screw) in place of the original Cox/Pica gear and to new mounting blocks in the Pica Kit. I will have to drop Bruce a line to see if anything has developed.
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:25 PM
  #2759
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Hi guys,

speaking of gear. I started building the fuse first. I am at the point of installing the landing gear and I really do not like the setup here. I would be interested in hearing how others feel about this. It seems to me that the gear is not very well supported on the bulkhead and would be imposible to replace it after a hard bang. I was batting around using a 5/32 or so doubler on the former and tie it into the tank box. This would allow the loads to be transferrd.

Any ideas??
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Old 06-09-2007, 04:31 PM
  #2760
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Ken --
If you guys do come up w/ a gear, please engineerr a wheelpant attachment that WORKS. If you'll include that, put me down for a set.
Thanks
Al
(Still steaming over the cr-p Cox included and refuses to do anything about....)
(Nope, the screw method didn't work for me, but thanks for the suggestion)
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Old 06-09-2007, 07:17 PM
  #2761
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'geek and mobyal---- This is one of the things we discussed, the fact that the Pica kit gear is permanently installed with no way to remove it for repairs. This is one place I think the ARF has the advantage over the original kit. The ARF has the traditional grooved rails and the gear is made as a unit that screws to the rails using standard plastic gear straps. There is a removable "belly pan" that fits between the legs and secures with a couple of #4 screws. It really looks clean when finished and wouldn't be a difficult mod on the kit, according to Jay, who looked mine over pretty closely today. This pan also allows limited access to the tank area, without having to take the bottom wing off.

The wheelpant attachment would be an integral part of whatever I try to come up with, and I would also include the fairings from the pants to the gear legs. My little screws are working on mine for the time being, although there's no way I can fly mine until I replace the gear. Thank God for headwinds; the breeze was picking up when I landed, and I had relatively little groundspeed when I touched down.

I am going to devote a lot of my scale data acquisition (pitcher takin') to the main gear of whatever YMF I can get close to at Creve Couer this week. John, I have the picture of the Pepino tailwheel in my files, I'd love to do it, but the way it pivots fore-and-aft, although true to scale, isn't compatible with my steering linkage. Jay looked at mine and thinks it's an okay design, and says he can make one like it from steel that won't come apart from repeated use. My metallurgical skills are limited to brass and solder, and while adequate for looks, just doesn't hold up under my landings[].

Another thing we discussed not related to hardware issues was wing incidence and setup. When I completed my plane, I propped up the rear so the tailplane was horizontal and therefore, zero incidence, and measured the wings relative to that datum. Both my wings are at positive 0.5 degrees. At half throttle in the air (a good cruise speed for my model) I have about three or four clicks of down trim on the elevator for level flight. Jay suggested making the top wing negative, relative to the bottom. This would reduce the tendency to climb under power and allow one wing (bottom in this case) to stall before the other, making the overall stall more gentle. I feel that given the amount of stagger in the wings, the top wing should stall first, which would allow the plane to "fall forward", or pitch down. The c/g on this plane is right at the leading edge of the bottom wing; if the bottom wing stalls first, the tendency will be to pitch the nose up, because the center of lift will be at or forward of the c/g if the plane is flying on the top wing alone. In conditions where one wing is stalled, airspeed is likely already slow, and the pitch-up will aggravate this and possibly place the plane in full stall. With a tendency to pitch down, it allows the plane to get back into a flying speed more quickly (unless you're only two feet up, in which case neither setup is good news).

So far, I haven't seen any bad tendencies with the incidence equal on both wings. It does tend to climb when flying into a breeze or with full power, but not so severely I consider it a bad handling trait. As a matter of fact, I find it very similar to my Cub in its trim characteristics. It wants to "leap" off the ground a tad when it reaches flying speed if you hold neutral elevator, but a slight touch of down keeps it on the ground and then relaxing that allows it to come off. It comes down quickly when you reduce power to about a third, but the attitude can be held with elevator, and I think it lands much better if flown to the ground with about 1/4 throttle and allowed to settle, rather than gliding in off power. As Stickbuilder says, she flies on the wing, and it needs to make lift until the mains are firmly planted.

Jay mentioned that today was probably the first meeting of two members of the Brotherhood; I think the Master Chief knows a couple of the guys from the Florida area. I enjoyed the heck out of today, and have a great sunburn to prove it. This intenet networking is awesome; I'll get to meet yet another brother this week as I fly the friendly(?), expensive(?), lost my luggage(?) skies of Useless Air(which BTW was recently voted the worst US carrier) and wend my way into STL. Maybe I can talk the pilot into flying through the Gateway Arch on his approach, make the flight more interesting; he might have to do it in a 90 degree bank so the wingtips clear. Later.
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Old 06-09-2007, 08:19 PM
  #2762
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Khodges,

Quote "The wheelpant attachment would be an integral part of whatever I try to come up with, and I would also include the fairings from the pants to the gear legs."

This may or may not work for what you want.
I used a oval steel plate 1/16 thick and found a guy with a wire welder to lay a bead around the axel and the back side of the oval plate. Its permenant and will not move or break. See my thread#2692 & 2693 for pics to get the general idea. I layed up body putty to fair the oval plate into the leg, but it would be not too much more work to lay up a scale shape.
I use 4-40 shcs's through the oval plate into blind nuts inside my whell pants. Pretty strong.

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Old 06-09-2007, 08:26 PM
  #2763
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Ken,

If you can talk the pilot into it, he has plenty of room. It is 630' high x 630' wide at the base. Just have to keep above Bush Stadium and a few other buildings, otherwise its just like doing the limbo.
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Old 06-09-2007, 09:14 PM
  #2764
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1

Ken,

If you can talk the pilot into it, he has plenty of room. It is 630' high x 630' wide at the base. Just have to keep above Bush Stadium and a few other buildings, otherwise its just like doing the limbo.
Heck, it's one of those "mini DC-9" commuter jets, we could probably do a formation flight.
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Old 06-10-2007, 02:54 AM
  #2765
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Quote:
Go back to page 7, post # 155 by Hughes500, that's the engine he installed. I don't remember hearing how it flew his plane (if its finished), so you might want to PM him to find out.
Thanks for remembering that!

The 170 fits the fuse and cowl very well. I have done a mock up (many times) to set the incidences up throughout this (my first) scratchbuild. I do believe, not only the fit is perfect but the weight may prove to be a god send. With building light being the priority, the mock up told me I was nose heavy. This of course is before primer and paint and there is a lot of it behind the CofG. I am just finishing up my covering, hope to spray primer in the next day or so. It's amazing how much time I have spent on the hinging, wheelpants and details etc. Soon though, very soon a flight report!
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Old 06-10-2007, 07:51 AM
  #2766
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Just a word of caution regarding welding music wire: It will break at the welded area. Music wire is a tempered spring steel and does not like to be welded. Annealing the welding area after welding can alleviate the breaking problem, however after annealing the part what you have left is just a piece of wire with no temper, ie: it will bend easily. Applying lot of weld to a small area usually just anneals that area anyway so the breakage may not happen as early in a part's life. Silver solder works great for music wire but that process too takes most of the temper away from the heat affected area. A properly prepared joint, wrapped with copper wire, is the best way to go.
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Old 06-10-2007, 05:12 PM
  #2767
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Hello all

John,

I took your advice and made a hard set of templates for the wing ribs. Made them from 1/4 ply a bit over kill but I put two small screws at each end ware they just came threw then pushed it on the balsa the screw tips held the balsa in place then I used a small rotter and roted them. It worked quite well I only dun the one so far I'll let you know how it goes when I'm finished.
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Old 06-10-2007, 05:23 PM
  #2768
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Damifino
What you say is absolutly true, but I only agree with the outcome of welding if it is done without due consideration. I explained almost exactly what you said to the welder. I should have mentiopned that in my earlier post, thanks for catching that. A large wire dia with a high voltage deep penatrant weld will do that. If you use small welding wire at the proper current for the job the weld does not go that deep to remove the temper from the gear wire. Your right about the brittling, but that is more of an issue with 5/32 and below axles that get hot enough to get annealed all the way through. This becomes less critical with the larger dia's.
However, I have had many 5/32 axle wire planes with my wheel pant plate welded and have never had a gear failure or bend at the weld joint. And I bounce my planes alot. I'm a crappy lander.
Music wire can be welded for many applications without losing its properties if the welding is done with due consideration.
Anyway, that is my opinion for what it is worth.
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Old 06-10-2007, 08:26 PM
  #2769
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I sometimes wonder just what kind of wire gets used on these ARF gear. Jay's message was related to seeing the failure of my gear at what looks like a simple spot weld, where one end of one wire is butted against the side of another. When we examined the wire post-incident, this wire also had a chrome plating, I suppose for rust resistance, and this isn't the first ARF gear I've seen that way. I e-mailed Cox's Customer Service, and will probably call them this week also, to see about getting a replacement. If their customer satisfaction is important to them, I think they should replace the gear gratis. If not, I doubt I'll purchase it; rather, I'll buy some piano wire of the same or slightly larger diameter and attempt making my own and cover the legs with balsa and fiberglass, basically replicate what the original was. This will be just to get it flying again, I still would like a nicer, closer to scale, functional strut type gear.

I don't plan to do anything until I get back from the WACO fly-in this week. Then, I'll remove the gear, cut all the fiberglass from the broken gear, and see what it looks like inside. I'll post pics for those who are interested.
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:01 PM
  #2770
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1

I originally wrote to Century Jet in February about the possibility of making 1/5th scale Landing Gear based on the 33% and 40% gear they make for the Genisis WACO's.
I went to their site today and looked at their gear for the Genesis kit. Too rich for my blood. I'm sure that a smaller scale gear might be a bit less, but not enough to encourage me to get it. $1015 for the main struts and tailwheel for the Genesis gear. I could buy 20 sets of the ARF gear and just keep changing them as they broke.

I think we can come up with something just as good for a lot less. After all, there's about 40 pounds difference in the flying weights of the 40% and the 20% sizes, the engineering should be easier.
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Old 06-10-2007, 09:45 PM
  #2771
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The only background I have in the metalurgy field is 20 years of custom metal fabrication (4130, titanium, stainless steel, aluminum and carbon fiber) and a fair amount of reading as well. My real knowledge about the music wire thing is a combination of modeling experience and my profession. About a year ago a co-worker (and fellow modeler) and I tried several tests on 5/32" and 3/16" music wire using TIG, MIG, silver solder and the tried and true copper wire wrap and solder.

The MIG joints ran the gamut and are conclusively inconsistant. They either break due to brittleness (not the weld but the wire), bend due to complete annealing or don't break at all. Not what I want when it comes to the integrity of my models. MIG welding on such small areas is too inconsistant to say the least.

The TIG welds yielded very consistent results. The joint fails completely every time at the junction of the fill weld and the parent material. The same thing happened whether we used mild steel, silicone bronze, 4130 or 304 stainless filler rod. TIG weld music wire? Nope.

Wrapping properly prepped and constructed music wire joints with copper or brass wire and then soldering them provided the most consistent and usable joints in our tests. This is what we were looking for. Proof that the old time method works and, best of all, anyone can do it at home.

There was nothing scientific in our tests. We have the time, ability and equipment to properly execute the methods described and used a destructive test (the 'now let's see if we can break it test') to explore and find something we would be comfortable with using on our projects.

My opinion on your welds working is the fact that the amount of weld applied annealed the area and the actual size of the wire and it's weld is suitable to hold what ever you are giving it. That does not satisfy my need to eliminate the luck factor in fabricating assemblies. Respectfully, DAMIFINO
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Old 06-11-2007, 06:48 AM
  #2772
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Well, I do not agree with you, regardless of all your testing. I guess maybe I should be scared or awed by all your experience and knowledge, but I am not. Careful and considerate welding of music wire works fine and maintains adequate properties to do the job. Welding the mount plate on the axel is the only good foolproof solution to a good wheel pant mount other than a heavy set screw into a dimple ground into the axel. That works almost as good, but I have had those spin the pants on me also.
That solder and wire thing I have seen fail at some point for just about everyone. If it holds well it is luck, just like you think my efforts are. However, ten years ago I stopped all that solder and wire stuff and went with welds and never have those problems anymore, and don't have axle failures either.
I guess we choose to disagree on this one. I hope that is alright, disagreeing. I do not know if either of us is completely right, but I do hope we can all bring our experience and knowledge to this forum without having to fear a small selection of watchdogs who know it all and decide what is absolutly right and wrong.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:31 AM
  #2773
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Check out this site for Waco hats to go with the shirts http://www.ragbag.com/AWC/ I got mine ordered already, now if the shirts get here I will be styling at the field. Also ordered a shirt and hat for my big Stearman............sorry brothers but I need to fly that one too.

Brother #46
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:45 AM
  #2774
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Disagreement is healthy. Let's just remember to keep it civil please.


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Old 06-11-2007, 09:00 AM
  #2775
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Actually, mrdhud and I met face to face at Bartow Florida on Sunday, April 21. I'm glad that damifino and Khodges were able to meet in person this weekend. Ken, sorry to hear about your loss last weekend, and sorry about the problem with your gear. I'm sure that you will be able to work through it. I lost a front axle on a street rod several years ago thanks to Hydrogen embrittlment (from the chrome plating process) and it was an expensive experience, and cost me the enjoyment of a rod run. I spent the bulk of the weekend replacing the axle. If you wish to use a replacement chromed axle, I would reccomend putting it in a medium hot oven for about 7 hours (350 f) and turn the oven off and allow the assembly to cool with the oven overnight. I don't know what welding process the manufacturer uses, and I am not a metalurgist. Maybe there is some commonality between Ron and Jay. Could be that they are both correct, just that they have different beliefs.

On the subject of meeting face to face, I would hope that in the future we could all arrange to be at the same place and at the same time to have a meeitng of all the Brothers.

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