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WACO YMF

Old 06-11-2007, 02:27 PM
  #2776
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ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

I would hope that in the future we could all arrange to be at the same place and at the same time to have a meeitng of all the Brothers.
Except for those of us who wind up in the Infernal Regions, I'd say it's a safe bet we'll all be together one day, but I hope we can sit and have a couple of beers first.

First one to get there, see if St.Peter has a place we can fly.


You mentioned Hydrogen imbrittlement from chrome plating. you reckon this might have anything to do with this wire gear failure, since it was chrome plated?
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Old 06-11-2007, 05:27 PM
  #2777
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My LHS owner called Cox this afternoon; they say they don't have ANY parts for the WACO. What they have to do is open a new ARF box and take the needed part, then use that model for parts. They are supposed to let him know tomorrow if they have the gear and how much. Looks like I'll wind up making my own; I bought several pieces of 3/16 piano wire while I was at the store.

It's not so big a deal for me, I CAN make another set (although I shouldn't have to), but some ARF owners might not have that option. I hope my gear failure is a fluke. Otherwise, I can imagine several dozen new ARF boxes lying around at Cox, sans landing gear. This is assuming that Cox plans to stand behind its product.
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Old 06-11-2007, 05:51 PM
  #2778
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Ken,

Hydrogen embrittlment occurs during the plating process. The time honored way to remove the problem is to heat the plated part in a convection oven set at 350f for 7 hours. Turn the oven off, and allow the part and the oven to cool together. When cool, the hydrogen atoms have been realigned and part is no longer considered to be brittle. At least that's what my old professor had to say about the problem (probably someone will have a different idea that is better). At any rate, it seems as though the hydrogen is trapped during the plating process, and uniform heating of the part is the only way that I know to relieve the issue. Of course, in your situation, you would need to remove all coverings from the part prior to placing it in the oven, and turning on the heat. Oh, I almost forgot. place the part in the oven while the oven is cool, and then bring the heat up to the desired temperature.

Bill, AMA 4720
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:23 PM
  #2779
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ORIGINAL: khodges

My LHS owner called Cox this afternoon; they say they don't have ANY parts for the WACO. What they have to do is open a new ARF box and take the needed part, then use that model for parts. They are supposed to let him know tomorrow if they have the gear and how much. Looks like I'll wind up making my own; I bought several pieces of 3/16 piano wire while I was at the store.

It's not so big a deal for me, I CAN make another set (although I shouldn't have to), but some ARF owners might not have that option. I hope my gear failure is a fluke. Otherwise, I can imagine several dozen new ARF boxes lying around at Cox, sans landing gear. This is assuming that Cox plans to stand behind its product.

Ken and others who have the Cox 1/5 ARF --
I'm glad your plane didn't suffer any damage.
On the subject of Cox parts supply/ mnufacturing capabilities/customer support, I posted a fairly long note over on the other site re my wheelpant attachment frustrations. If I could figure out how to move it over here I'd do that, but that's beyond my capabilities.
Al
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Old 06-11-2007, 09:02 PM
  #2780
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Mobyal (and others)-- I gather from your experience and what Cox told you about "later versions", and what I overheard the Cox guy tell my LHS owner (and his fairly obvious 'so what' attitude), that Cox is like so many other ARF sellers: we'll sell you planes all day, but just hope they don't break; of course, then, if you're dumb enough, we'll sell you another one.

I hope I'm wrong; but if I'm right, and Cox doesn't want to make it right, or even try to SELL me another gear set, you can bet I'll get as vocal about it as possible in as many places as possible, just to make a point. Maybe they can make enough one-time sales to stay in business.
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Old 06-11-2007, 09:38 PM
  #2781
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Looking for the almighty dollar and loosing thier shirt in the wash. Estes thought they caught a fat cat and it happend to have stripes
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Old 06-11-2007, 10:39 PM
  #2782
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: ronj10

Well, I do not agree with you, regardless of all your testing. I guess maybe I should be scared or awed by all your experience and knowledge, but I am not. Careful and considerate welding of music wire works fine and maintains adequate properties to do the job. Welding the mount plate on the axel is the only good foolproof solution to a good wheel pant mount other than a heavy set screw into a dimple ground into the axel. That works almost as good, but I have had those spin the pants on me also.
That solder and wire thing I have seen fail at some point for just about everyone. If it holds well it is luck, just like you think my efforts are. However, ten years ago I stopped all that solder and wire stuff and went with welds and never have those problems anymore, and don't have axle failures either.
I guess we choose to disagree on this one. I hope that is alright, disagreeing. I do not know if either of us is completely right, but I do hope we can all bring our experience and knowledge to this forum without having to fear a small selection of watchdogs who know it all and decide what is absolutly right and wrong.
Yes, we can agree to disagree. I think your observation that welding music wire "works fine and maintains adequate properties to do the job" is in effect your acceptance of a compromise that works some of the time. How many springs have you seen, of any kind, shape and size, in common use that includes a welded joint? We are talking about spring steel, right?

I don't expect anyone to be 'scared or in awe' of me, especially you. The one thing I can say for sure is that I am beginning to think you are a bonified smart EDITED in the first degree.
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:34 PM
  #2783
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The WACO Brotherhood Tee sample proofs were printed today and the remainder of the order will be run tomorrow. There was a delay because we had to make a change so the finished product would match the art comp. that has been posted here many times. I hope to ship them by the end of the week.

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Old 06-12-2007, 08:07 AM
  #2784
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Let's not get into a urinating contest here guys....we all have our opinions, and I hope that we can all learn from each other. You guys are Brothers, so let's back off a few steps, breathe deeply and resume the discourse. I'm not taking sides, I just don't want the Moderators in here.

Bill, AMA 4720
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Old 06-12-2007, 09:42 AM
  #2785
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

Let's not get into a urinating contest here guys....we all have our opinions, and I hope that we can all learn from each other. You guys are Brothers, so let's back off a few steps, breathe deeply and resume the discourse. I'm not taking sides, I just don't want the Moderators in here.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
We have about 50 brothers who hardly ever say anything. After all this I can't say I am not surprised.
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:09 AM
  #2786
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ronj10,

I'll second that!!

Here we go again!!!!!!!

I read this thread DAILY and I can't believe the size of some of the egos in here!! Everyone has an opinion about something and that is natural, but when someone starts "bashing" the other, well, I think it is time to settle these issues with PM's, not here on the forum for the world to read. After all, this is supposed to be a thread where we can post what we have learned through our experience of building these great models and learn from each other!!!!
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:46 AM
  #2787
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: ronj10


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

Let's not get into a urinating contest here guys....we all have our opinions, and I hope that we can all learn from each other. You guys are Brothers, so let's back off a few steps, breathe deeply and resume the discourse. I'm not taking sides, I just don't want the Moderators in here.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
We have about 50 brothers who hardly ever say anything. After all this I can't say I am not surprised.
That would depend on the subject. I have noticed that when there is an issue that is more applicable to everyone, then you seem to have more posting concerning that issue. When the problem is more directed to something that is applicable to something like the ARF landing gear, then the discourse is limited. Could it be that others don't have an issue with something that they don't own????? And it could be that some of the brothers just like the shirt.....

Bill, AMA 4720
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:57 AM
  #2788
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As I mentioned in my reply above, I am a DAILY reader of this thread. I have not contributed much to this thread because I do not have a lot of experience with this model. I have been in this hobby since 1973 and have build my shear of models along the way. I am in the process of building the 1/6th scale version of this model (from PICA plans) and have learned from all of you, whether it was from some of the pictures that you posted, or just by the description of what you have build or altered. I, for one, thank you all for keeping this thread going.


Just my 2 cents.
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Old 06-12-2007, 01:04 PM
  #2789
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Tom,

Thank you for the kind words. We sure do try, but just like with all families, there are often differences of opinion. We do try to keep the harsh words down. We are all Brothers (and a few Sisters mixed in) and well, you know how that works. I think that I'm right, but every now and then, I do get corrected, and it does sting a little, but it does make for a better model airplane. [:@]

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Old 06-12-2007, 01:55 PM
  #2790
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I guess I,m one of those guys that don,t say much, I do read the forum every day. If I don,t have something that might help some one I just don,t say anything. I did have an accident with my cox Waco .on final with a 90 degree cross wind, I slowed it to much and had a up draft that raised me about 30 feet right into a stall. my dumb thumbs kept over correcting untill I went into a tree. It landed pretty hard flat on the ground. broke the top wing in the center the end struts and the cabans. It also knocked the landing gear out all in one piece. so ooo I am taking the covering off and will cover in solar tex after the repairs. As far as Cox giving any body anything. lots of luck .My wheel panst brackets broke while on the bench I let it go for awhile untill I finnished most of the assembly . I had a list of nine items that was wrong with my plane .I called Cox And they made me feel like I just made all this up. This is my last cox Model. I have the Pica 10 yrs old ,about to recover for third time. and I think I will enlarge verything to 1/4 scale since Bill put so much work into the drawings ...I really appreciate all you guys on this forum I,m 73 years old and have been building since I was 8 so keep up the good work Waco bro. 27 .......Jacque
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:27 PM
  #2791
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I also read this forum everyday, but I don't always have something to contribute, or spout off about. I do however need help at this time. I have not touched my Waco in nearly three weeks!!!! I need some motivation to get back to work on it. Send me some photos or words of encouragement. Thanks
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:37 PM
  #2792
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My experience working in the Eutectic Castolin lab in UK and subsequent 30+ years as a Welding & Fabrication Lecturer lead me to presume against the use of either fusion welding or silver soldering/brazing when using music wire because it results in softening of the material. I have always softened music wire by heating to dull red and normalising (cooling in air). I cannot hazard a guess as to the composition of music wire but it has an enormous tensile strength, greater than a high carbon steel in usable condition.

When it comes to a soldering process, the use of a LARGE iron, ACID flux and binding with copper or florists iron wire (mechanically cleaned) to increase the surface area of the join and TINMANS solder results in a strong joint. FINE Tinmans & Electrical solder is weaker and using a resin flux commonly fails. The iron should be tinned (covered in solder) and the job fluxed before the heat is applied.

Aluminium can be soldered but the flux is highly corrosive. It can however be spot welded by placing a similar thickness of low carbon steel between the job and the electrode. The lower electrical conductivity of the steel produces the heat to allow softening of the aluminium. I seem to remember that it is the O&R engines where the steel liner is secured to the zinc based diecast crancase by a spot (non fusion) weld.

Eutectic Co in UK used to provide a service to many small firms (such as garages) with many welding and soldering products by using a workforce of sales people whose claim was WE CAN JOIN ANYTHING, and then ask me or others in the lab to provide the answer. They could afford to carry out this service by using highly inflated prices for the different consumables.

I looked up Eutectic on Google and they have moved from Feltham in UK and the advertisment I found was not aimed at small firms as it used to be over 40 years ago. I don't know if there is an alternative in USA but would try a vehicle main dealership to see if they have any materials supplier they can recommend.

Looking at this thread at least once a day is as much a part of my life as loking at my eMail. My thanks to Stickbuilder and all the other contributors.

WACO Brotherhood No. 14.

old git - - - - - - aka John L.
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:38 PM
  #2793
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I also check "the brotherhoods" thread every day but say little. I have been very busy with the work thing and have not started my Waco yet. I thoroughly enjoy all the banter on this thread and have learned from the group. The shirt thing is a good thing
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:53 PM
  #2794
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Help! Still need some help in getting some templates for the Pca 1/6 Waco. Recently bought a kit and all the plywood parts are missing if anyone can help with this it would be greatly appreciated.

John
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Old 06-12-2007, 09:32 PM
  #2795
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Okay Brothers. I have the shirts in my possession and will take this opportunity to thank each and every one who ordered them. Busy, busy at work and home but I am still shooting for shipping this week.

Here's what they look like: Full back print is on the left and on the right is the small logo on the left chest.
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Old 06-12-2007, 09:37 PM
  #2796
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Jacque

As far as Cox giving any body anything. lots of luck .My wheel panst brackets broke while on the bench I let it go for awhile untill I finnished most of the assembly . I had a list of nine items that was wrong with my plane .I called Cox And they made me feel like I just made all this up. This is my last cox Model. .......Jacque

Exactly how I feel. I have heard nothing from them after my e-mail, and they did not return the call to my LHS as they said they would.
I'm going to make it a point to let everyone I come in contact with in this hobby know what their customer service is like and to steer clear. Estes should take a hard look at their acquisition and clean house in the customer service dept. Of course, maybe Estes has gone the same route. I used to get great service from them when I was a kid, flying their model rockets.

I felt that when they bought the rights to Pica's stuff, they were going to revive it; looks like they just intend to exploit the name and squeeze what bucks are left out of the products.
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Old 06-12-2007, 10:00 PM
  #2797
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Thank you Old Git for your input. I stand by responses and offer no apologies for my knowledge of and application of certain processes relating to my profession or hobbies. With all due respect to everyone; there is a vast difference between an opinion and an understanding of fundamentals. I am not splitting hairs here and a review of recent posts reveals the commonality present in most of RONJ10's posts. I, for one, am often put off by his crass remarks. If that is a weakness on my part, well that's just the way it is. In the future I will refrain from responding to the gentleman.
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Old 06-12-2007, 10:22 PM
  #2798
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John L., I wonder if you could give us a bit of instruction on rehardening music wire and even regular steel(?). I read an article on it once but didn't save it. Stuff like the color its heated to and how it's cooled. And any other "tricks" you use with metal. Thanks, Jim #9
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Old 06-12-2007, 10:24 PM
  #2799
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Quote:
My wheel panst brackets broke while on the bench I let it go for awhile untill I finnished most of the assemb
Just out of curiosity, how were the wheel pants brackets attached to the landing gear?
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:03 PM
  #2800
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: damifino

Quote:
My wheel panst brackets broke while on the bench I let it go for awhile untill I finnished most of the assemb
Just out of curiosity, how were the wheel pants brackets attached to the landing gear?
The bracket consists of a flat piece of metal to which was somehow "attached" -- if we can use that term to describe what was done -- a (plated) brass wheel collar. The wheel collar was to go on the gear and be held on the axle w/ a 2-56 setscrew. The metal plate is drilled for 2 4-40 bolts that screw into two blind nuts mounted on a piece of plywood glassed to the inside of the wheel pant. Quick, simple and easy, right? Attaching the wheel pants'll take about 90 seconds, right? Not so fast; on a large number of the assemblies, or maybe all of them, the attachment of the wheel collar to the metal plate is defective and so far as I know, no one has been able to figure out how to make it stay permanently, at least not without welding and/or machine shop fabrication.

Cox told me that on the prototype, the manfacturer did the assembly correctly, but tried to cut corners on the production kits. Hence the current problem. Cox has no suggestions for fixing the problem other than to suggest, lamely, that we buy a Sullivan or Dubro attachment. But Cox has said that the problem will be corrected on the next run of kits. So far as I'm concerned, what Cox should do is either get the manufacturer to make up a bunch correctly, or have a machine shop fabricate something, and get them to those of us who bought the first run of kits. Aparently that's not going to happen and those of us w/ the first run are simply out of luck, so far as getting any help from Cox is concerned.

I too had some other issues w/ the kit, including that neither the rudder or elevators had "hardpoints" to bolt on the control horns. If you follow the manual, you'll be mounting the horns to balsa. So I scabbed some ply mounting plates in the surfaces. But when I reported that to Cox, the reaction was disbelief....

Al
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