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WACO YMF

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Old 11-21-2006, 08:53 PM
  #276
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ORIGINAL: Hughes500E

Quick question for all you kit builders
In the instruction manual (page 13, section 31 NOTE ) it is telling me that the black mark on the preshaped W-13 piece must be on the top.

What is the significance of this mark? I can not tell by looking at it!

Thanx
W-13 is a little different (top to bottom) and the black mark is for the top of the aileron inset in the wing in order to maintain the correct cross section. The difference is minute, but is noticable if you ever install one upside down. Just follow the sequence, and you will be happy with the result.

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Old 11-21-2006, 09:03 PM
  #277
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I just can't see it Bill, I'll have to cut the part and take a closer look once it's in my hand. Given the tip placement, I assume the bottom of part W-13 is longer than the top? [:-]
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Old 11-21-2006, 09:14 PM
  #278
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The linear difference top to bottom is small, but it is there. Yes the bottom is a tad longer than is the top. It has to do with the tip plate placement. If you already have one installed with the black mark down, do not cut the assembly apart. You can shape it with a sanding block and no one will ever know. It's that small.

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Old 11-21-2006, 09:28 PM
  #279
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I don't have one installed Bill, I don't have one to install

Remember I'm scratchbuilding mine and my template shows no sign of top and bottom. I should be ok now!
Thanx
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Old 11-22-2006, 12:25 AM
  #280
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Bill -- Yet another power-system related question-- i'm really leaning towards the twin now just need to close some open issues -- how large of a fuel tank are you using and what are "typical" flight times with the twin & that tank. As I mentioned before mine was built with a particular power system (?) in mind and i need to know if i have to hack it out to get a bigger tank in there. Also what prop combo are you using?

Thanks!
Tom
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Old 11-22-2006, 05:56 AM
  #281
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ORIGINAL: evdo

Bill -- Yet another power-system related question-- i'm really leaning towards the twin now just need to close some open issues -- how large of a fuel tank are you using and what are "typical" flight times with the twin & that tank. As I mentioned before mine was built with a particular power system (?) in mind and i need to know if i have to hack it out to get a bigger tank in there. Also what prop combo are you using?

Thanks!
Tom
Tom,

I am running a Slimline 16 ounce tank. I converted mine to a tail loader (tank installs from the rear requiring some surgery on the aft gear support bulkhead) I am normally ready to land after about 12-15 minuttes of flying, and the tank is normally still 1/3rd full. Sometimes the tank will be closer to 1/2 full, if my flying has been moderate (scalelike in all aspects). Remember the full scale WACO YMF is/was not ever intended to be an aerobat. I use the J-Zinger wooden prop in size 18X6. This prop provides plenty of thrust and lower speed (kind of like driving your car in 3rd gear instead of allowing it to operate in overdrive). I'm also having Tru-Turn cut a spinner for me for this one. I'm going for an AT-6 Spinner in the 1 1/2" size. Tru-Turn tells me that they can cut this spinner for the prop that I use with no problems.

Back to the tank issue, once the tank is in place, I made a piece of ply that bolts to the remnants of the former to provide structural integrity to the gear mount. I used 1/8" ply, and secured it with 4 4-40 bolts, washers and T=nuts. This allows me to service the tank when necessary. I used the slimline tank, because it fits within the original tank box (some rear overhang) and I use a 3 line system. One line to feed the carb, one for filling (with a fuel dot) and one for venting. The vent line exits through a custom discharge line in the lower front of the fuselage. (there is a pic that shows the discharge lines in an earlier post) This engine does not use exhaust pressure, so an atmospheric vent is required.

I made an additional discharge line that runs parallel to the tank vent discharge line. This one is for the crankcase vent. In doing so, I eliminated the need for a piece of raw tubing just hanging out in the breeze, and it adds a little more realisim to the model. They are easy to form (using Brass tubing and strap stock), have a look and see if that is something that you would like to do as well.

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Old 11-22-2006, 11:03 AM
  #282
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Thanks for the details, Bill - one of the "features" of the mostly built waco that i acquired is it looks like someone took a jackhammer to the gear mounting area, so I need to rebuild that section anyway and i do like a serviceable tank, hopefully the slimline will fit between the rail "infrastructure" they have in place (which is much beefer then the plans).

I'll go and look through your pics again on the lines-- that certainly sounds like a cool way to go.

Tom




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Old 11-22-2006, 01:53 PM
  #283
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: evdo

Thanks for the details, Bill - one of the "features" of the mostly built waco that i acquired is it looks like someone took a jackhammer to the gear mounting area, so I need to rebuild that section anyway and i do like a serviceable tank, hopefully the slimline will fit between the rail "infrastructure" they have in place (which is much beefer then the plans).

I'll go and look through your pics again on the lines-- that certainly sounds like a cool way to go.

Tom
Tom,

About the only way that I can imagine the rail system being any beefier is if they used railroad crossties [sm=shades_smile.gif] But, then again , one never knows...

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Old 11-22-2006, 09:44 PM
  #284
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Hi Bill.

Looks like I should have gotten on this site sooner but better late than never !
I started on the Waco, thats half the reason I didn't get on here, I couldn't brake away from building . I got the top wing just about done, hoggin off the wing tips and makein it nice and round and I'll be there!

I noticed a lot of the guys are up in the air ( pun intended ) about what to put in the front end. I know you and I had talked about this too and I agree with you about butchering up that cowl. I thought about putting a G26 in too but I love that 4 cycle sound so I'll probably stick with my 1.20 Enya. If my ship comes in in the mean-time I'll go for your 1.60 twin but with my daughter in college I'm lucky to have what I've got ! What I'm leading up to is the story about my buddy who has the Saito 1.80 in his 18# Waco and the fact that it flys but it isn't comfortable, for lack of a better word . He can bring it across the field at a low speed and hit the throttle and take it into a loop without a problem,which speaks for the engine, but he's only good for about 7-8 minutes and than comes in. I don't know what size tank because he bought it at a swap meet, we time him when he goes up so he doesn't have to keep an eye on his watch ! The plane flys great (stable ) in the wind and is easy to land .
I hope some of this will make the other guys feel less apprehensive about engine choice, I go with you keep it in the cowl !

Dick
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Old 11-23-2006, 07:29 AM
  #285
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Dick,

Happy Thanksgiving. We are all probably guilty of overpowering our models, but the 160 twin is not a real powerhouse. When propped correctly, the torque from this engine is outstanding. I fly mine with an 18X6 wooden prop, and it's kind of like driving your car in 3rd gear. The speed ain't much, but the acceleration is fantistic. Too many flyers think that every model is an aerobat, but in the case of the WACO, it ain't so. This is a great scale flyer, and as long as you keep the aerobatics within the envelope of the full scaale bird, the performance is outstanding. I had the pleasure of growing up in an aviation family. Dad was a military pursuit(fighter) pilot, and he also grew up around airplanes. Granddad had a WACO, and also used a Beech Biplane (the one with the negative stagger), and I still remember the sound and the feel of that 7 cylinder 225 Shakey Jake in the WACO. It seemed to take it forever to take off, and the flying was fairly lazy. It was pretty heavy on the controls (no hydraulic or electric boosted controls there), and you were moving 4 big old ailerons in the slipstream. The rudder and elevators were pretty big as well. You didn't do anything in a hurry with that one (other than get this big ol' grin on your mug),

I also have built one of these powered with an O.S. 120 (non-pumped) and it flew about the same as did all the others (with the exception of the one with the Maloney 125) That one is a different story. Remember, this model does not fly on the prop, but still flies on the wings. Proper Incidence settings are the single most important item with this one. Set the Incidences right, and it's a joy to fly. Set them wrong, and you've got a handfull. Enjoy your turkey.

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Old 11-23-2006, 03:46 PM
  #286
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HI. I was wondering where you got those building clamp system. Looks Like I need them for my waco project. Would you be so kind to email where i could purchase them. Thank you
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Old 11-23-2006, 04:14 PM
  #287
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: doughall

HI. I was wondering where you got those building clamp system. Looks Like I need them for my waco project. Would you be so kind to email where i could purchase them. Thank you
Heck, we all need them, I probably would never use it. It would just look like I knew what I was doing if I had them on the wall of the shop.

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Old 11-23-2006, 06:41 PM
  #288
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Actually, this is a first time build using the magnetic building board. At first I was really missing my pins and drywall. Now 1/2 way through the project, I'm really liking it. I tried building on glass before as well but this is much nicer! Takes a bit of getting used to, I'm sure even Bill could get it

Eldon J Lind Magic Magnet Building Board...... Doing a quick search on google, looks like Great Planes sells them now!

I have mine laying flat on a piece of drywall.
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Old 11-23-2006, 07:12 PM
  #289
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Need some advice, I am trying to finalize the tail wheel setup. The strut is 4-40 push rod, my concern is the rod is soft. Is there a way to temper the steel? There is some caster provided at the bearing inside the fuse, but the strut is fairly straight in the hope that it will not be prone to bend. The fairing is balsa with a nylon push rod guide CA'd inside for the strut to pass through.
Any ideas, or suggestions welcome.
Jim
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Old 11-23-2006, 07:19 PM
  #290
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I think that I would rather see the tailwheel strut made from something like music wire. Failing that, you can probably temper the wire that you are using by heating it until it is yellow hot (past red hot) and oil quenching it. You may need a forge to generate that much heat. Normally unless you have the means to super oxygenate the flame, (similar to a cutting torch) you will not be able to achieve that temperature. Try it with a scrap piece of wire and your Butane torch. You will need a container with sufficient engine oil to submerge the part . Also be sure to have a fire extinguisher on hand in case you ignite the oil. You probably will not do this, but better safe than sorry.

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Old 11-23-2006, 07:41 PM
  #291
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Thanks Bill, the LHS will be open tomorrow and I may try to pick up a piece of music wire that is the same (or slightly smaller) in diameter. I do have a MAP gas torch but I think, I'll try to locate the music wire first. I did not know that the wire had to be yellow hot to be tempered. While I am looking for the music wire I'll try and locate a 1 3/4 tail wheel. If I can locate the music wire, will I have to do any re-tempering where I make my bend(s)?
Thanks again
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:39 PM
  #292
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No, you would not need to retemper if you made the bends cold. I just went out to the shop and tried a piece of control rod. It bends more easily than does the music wire in the same diameter. I think that you will be okay with the music wire. You mentioned the amount of caster that you will have. I think that with the overall lightness of the model, you should be okay without any additional caster. If it worries you, build in a few degrees into the wire.

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Old 11-23-2006, 09:06 PM
  #293
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Before I start my Pica Waco kit I'm finishing my second great planes super aeromaster and then I was thinking about a balsa usa 1/4 scale newport 28. I'm thinking I would rather get more building time in before I tack on the waco. What do you think?
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Old 11-23-2006, 09:14 PM
  #294
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Doug,

are the aeromaster's Kits, or the ARF versions? There is probably not much difference between the WACO And the Neiuport, (or most of the other Balsa USA kits) They are both builder's kits. What else have you built either from a kit or plans? If you have 4 or 5 other kits behind you, I would not expect for you tho have too many problems with the WACO. I have built several of them, and I still have to sit down and think my way through several problem areas per build. This forum will be here as long as they will let it stand, and I continue to waste air. Give it a shot. If you start, and are careful, there are enough of us in here to get you through anything. (well, us and debonder)

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Old 11-23-2006, 09:20 PM
  #295
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Default RE: WACO YMF

I think Pica has done an excellent job on this kit. I think the parts count is high (just ask my scroll saw) but that shouldn't detour you. All in all I think anyone with intermediate building skills can handle this craft. The fuse is built on a crutch, it has a flat bottom airfoil on the wings. The tail section is simple etc etc.

I think they will be a similar build. Nieuport may be a bit easier!
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Old 11-23-2006, 11:02 PM
  #296
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Bill,
As you can see I got your message from RCSB, and I THANK YOU for the invite, I'll be patiently waiting for your next decision, on your involvement in the waco project. Presently I have the 1/5 th scale, with a Saito 150 Golden Knight with an 18-6 prop, and quite honestly the guys I fly with all say this is the best plane in my fleet. although I plan to recover over the winter months.
George
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Old 11-23-2006, 11:28 PM
  #297
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Hi George,
Welcome, I would like to hear more about your 1/5th with the 18-6 prop. I am building mine with the Saito 170 3 cylinder. I too have an 18-6 prop that is taching at 7800 RPM on 10%. How is it with this prop? Good enough power, does it break well etc
Thanx
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Old 11-23-2006, 11:39 PM
  #298
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These are the regular aeromaster kits. I just thought that i need one more kit behind me so I don't waste or ruin the pica kit. The balsa usa kit looks much like the waco kit. I would rather spend the money on a current kit then start the waco. see this forum and seeing your aircraft makes me want to get better first.

Doug
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Old 11-24-2006, 06:27 AM
  #299
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Hi George,

I think that you will find that this site operates far better than the other (more user friendly) What is your WACO Covered with now?

As to the next one, I have decided to blow the 20% parts and plan up a few points to maybe even 25% scale. This will require completely re-engineering the kit as to thicknesses, cross sections etc. It's a real bear on a kit with a super-high parts count, but it can be done. Thinking about the Seidel Radial for that one. Crap !!! I might as well contact WACO Classics and buy one of the full scale YMF's that they sell. It will probably cost less in the long run [:@].

Separate note. I heard from the President of the WACO Club (the full scale guys) He knows Charlie Nelson well, and the Club (these guys all have the real thing) is interested in what we are doing. He even offered to make photo's and diagrams available to us (like wing wire diagrams and such) and would like to have photos of our efforts. This might even be a good way for us to do a better job of building scale. Owners of full-scale airplanes consider it a compliment when someone wishes to model their airplane. Now we need to consider having all here join in the WACO Brotherhood. (It's the cheapest club in town) No dues, no initiation fees, no meetings, no officers, only one rule...Love them old rag-bags.

Bill, AMA 4720
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Old 11-24-2006, 06:43 AM
  #300
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On a seperate note, Yesterday afternood, I took a new kit down from the shelf, and opened the box. The die cutting in this one appears to have been done when the dies were either fairly new, or just sharpened. This is good. I will begin to scan/copy the parts so that we can have a library of needed cut pieces so that this kit can not ever die. I'm going to get back into contact with Mace Gill (Aeroplane Works) about cutting some of these once all the parts are scanned.

I want to modify the kit in one area, and that is the little bitty tiny dihedral braces found in the original kit. It will be no problem to make these braces at least 12" long (6"per side from the dihedral break) for both the tip and bottom wings. This is something that I have always thought about on all the kits that I have built, and I have just been too lazy to do something about it. What do you guys think about this? Also balsa sticks in the 1/4" square size (48" lengths) are available, so there is no need to splice them. Everything else is straightforward, and easily accessable. I am going to do an either-or method of engine mount, so that the choice of beam mounting or radial mounting will be included on the scans. On thinking about it, with the availability of commercial beam mounts that are available in the marketplace, there is no reason that I can see to continue with the maple engine bearers. I believe that we can accomplish the same strength by substituting the tank box walls from plywood instead of balsa, and use this to tie the front fuselage assembly together, and totally eliminate the beam structure in the front end. Also, by enlarging the tank box, and loading it from the rear, engine mount bolts and nuts can be more easily accessable by having this cavity larger. Yep, more engineering to be done, but these mods will get us out of the copyright issue with the current owner of PICA, and since they do not have plans to release the kit, but are only interested in the ARF version, it should be a non-issue. There will be no monetary profit from these efforts, only the love of these Wonderful WACO's.

Bill, AMA 4720
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