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WACO YMF

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Old 11-26-2006, 09:30 PM
  #326
Jim Henley
 
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Default RE: WACO YMF

DANG !! I hate to hear that you had to recover the top wing. Yes please keep us advised as to what went wrong. While I'm no where near the covering stage, I am sure all of us on this thread will want to know what the problem was so we can avoid any paint incompatibility issues when it comes time for us to get our birds in paint.
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Old 11-26-2006, 10:44 PM
  #327
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Hi Bill,
Struts set up at field, AMEN there has to be a better way.
do you know of any sites that have colorful pics of waco's so I can start to think about a new color scheme?
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Old 11-27-2006, 12:09 AM
  #328
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Default RE: WACO YMF

My Klass Kote arrived the other day, no compatibility issues

I cleared a pin stripe on my bicycle last winter, had to resand the entire fender and start again, I feel your pain!

http://www1.airliners.net/search/pho...nct_entry=true
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Old 11-27-2006, 06:55 AM
  #329
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Go to the WACO Club site. They have pictures galore of all the alphabet soup of the Weaver Aircraft Companies offerings.

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Old 11-29-2006, 09:57 PM
  #330
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Well, started checking the wing incidence on the bottom wing. On the right side I am right at Zero degrees. Left side - 1 to -3/4 degrees negative. Tried to shim the wing in the wing saddle, doesn't seem to make much difference. I actually had a piece of 1/4 stock between the L.E and wing saddle. That brought me to within 1/2 degree negative, but skewed the reading on the right not to mention how far off the wing was to the fuse. I check the measurement from tail post to each wing tip and I am within 1/16 so the plane is fairly square.
Finally took a piece of 440 rod between the T.E. and wing saddle and got the left side to 3/4 degree negative, with out skewing the reading on the right side to bad. So, whadayaall think? is a deviation of -1 degree something I can live with or will it make the plane unflyable? Also want to mention that between the former owner and myself I am dangerously thin in some spots so will have to add some 1/64 ply for strength once I get the incidence correct.
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:34 PM
  #331
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Jim,

I think that you need to get both wings and the interplane struts to the point where you can bolt everything together before you make any rash moves. The Interplane struts may tweak the bottom wing into submission. It sounds as if the wing had a warp built in during the framing-up. You can always use the steam and twist method to correct the warp/skew. I think that you will be able to get it so close that you will never notice the slight deviation once the model is completed.

On a happier note, The last coat of Nitrate is on the wing, and has been sanded in preparation for the paint. I should be back to square 462 (where I was just prior to shooting the trim) by this weekend. The cause of the paint crazing has been found. It was not a paint compatibility problem....It was a builder/painter stupidity problem. Wrong thinner used. [:@] (read the label stupid!!!!!)

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Old 12-02-2006, 07:48 AM
  #332
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Hi stickbuilder.

I was looking at the pictures of your RED model, it looked really superb and my computer rendered the colours a prefect match with the other full size Waco pics I saw in the given URLs. I spent some time looking at the wrinkles in the trailing edge of the upper wing. I magnified the pics and "Lo and Behold", I was looking at the shadow on the wallpaper.

I spent more time looking at the finish and realised that I was not really learning about technique when I asked about how you sanded etc I was really learning that I do not persevere, When I magnified the pics I could see just how much work had gone into the finish. I was so sorry to hear that the finish crazed, 'still, you sound to be the sort of realist who shrugs and gets on with it.

It's my experience that in the UK we rarely know just what we are working with, we are separated from the manufacturers by the suppliers/retailers. I imagine the supply chain in the USA is rather shorter then here or maybe it's simply that the customers are more knowledgeable and demanding over there.

When working with automobile finishes we are always told by the suppliers/manufacturers data sheets that FINISHES ARE A SYSTEM, and instructed never to mix them. We do seem to have experts who merrily mix and match using experience. I have been away from those things so long that I don't know what happens these days. I do know that the old high pressure low volume systems are dying in the auto trade and supplanted by High Volume Low Pressure systems. as to water based paint, who knows?

By the way when I magnified the pics I'm sure I saw Tinkerbell "peeping" out of the cockpit?!?!




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Old 12-02-2006, 10:04 AM
  #333
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Bill, and All
Last night I bolted the top wing to the cabanes, and set the !QUOT!N!QUOT! struts in place. EEK, nothing fit! I had copied the !incidence guage off of the plans and glued it to some card stock, when I tried to insert it between the fuse and top wing it wasn't even close. The wing must be 1/2 in low in the front.
So today I will clear off the work bench, weight down the center sections of each wing and start measuring for warps. Then get the torch and unsolder the mounts from the cabanes and start over. While I am at it, figure I might as well re sheet the top center section of the bottom wing and probably both center sections of the top wing as there are modifications that were done by the former owner that I can not live with and need to correct. While I am on the subject, when you mount the Interplane struts, do they go outboard of the nylon bracket? It appears that way on the plan, but I'd like to be sure.
Another question, I am finding blue RTV all over the inside of this fuselage. That is something I have never seen or read about, any idea what the previous owner may have been trying to accomplish? Fuel proofing perhaps? Have you ever heard of this technique?
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Old 12-02-2006, 12:17 PM
  #334
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Well, I found it! Left wing panel high on the T.E. compared to the right panel. I wet the wood down with ammoniated window cleaner,
and blocked up the wing to take the warp out. Hard part is leaving the thing alone until it dries, so I can recheck. If this works the lower wing will be dead on at 0 degrees. Then it's off to the top wing !!
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Old 12-02-2006, 04:05 PM
  #335
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In the order that you asked: The Interplane struts go outboard of the Nylon brackets on the bottom wing, and inboard on the top wing. As to the Blue RTV Sealant... I have no clue. This is the fabled gasket maker RTV, and It works well under clamping forces, but is worthless as an adhesive. Maybe he ran out of glue, and used what was on hand. I'd dig all of it that I could out of the model, and find what is missing adhesive.

I hate that you are having to do all the rework, but just figure that you bought a big ol' ARF, and you are having to correct the problems there.

I shot the final coat of red on the new (old) top wing this morning, before I went to the Dealership, and if anything, it's slicker than before. We finally traced the problem with the paint crazing to the retarder that I used when I mixed the trim color. The extended drying time allowed the trim color to attack the base color, and the rest is history.

Bill, AMA 4720
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John L,

Good eye there. That is the ever lovely Miss T.Bell indeed. This WACO is for my wife, and we are doing it in the Tinkerbell motif. In fact, Disney world is interested in borrowing the model for an exhibit in one of their Tinkerbell stores at Walt Disney World. There is more to come with this little pixie pilot and this model. There will be a logo for the, "You can fly", theme. I'm giving away surprises, but it's gonna be fun.

B.
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Old 12-03-2006, 10:24 AM
  #336
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Good morning all,
Bill did you get the trim paint shot on the WACO? Looking forward to seeing the completed project.
H-500 how goes it with your project??

I got the bottom wing straightend out and the incidence is 0 - 1/4 negative. By the time I get the wing saddle (F 22-A,B,C) replaced, the wing sheeting replaced between the spar and L.E. I should be able to get the incidence right on 0 degrees. Unsolderd the rear cabane mount and shortend the strut slighly. Now when I put the gauge under the top wing it sets perfectly. Incedence is also right on 0 measued just outboard of the center section at the widest portion between the L.E. and T.E.
Before I start making all these changes permanant I would like to run this process by you.
1. To obtain my datum line reference, I block the fuse in my stand until the crutch is level ( i.e. carpenter level, level)
2. Using the same fixture to obtain level, I attach the incidence meter and set it to 0 degrees.
3. With the above reference, the stab is +2 degrees and the upper and lower wings are very close to 0 degrees.
My logic is that if the datum line (crutch) is level. the incidence should be 0 degrees and thus the reference to all the other measurements.
Does this make sense?
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Old 12-03-2006, 03:04 PM
  #337
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Yep. That's the way I do it as well. No trim shot yet, I'm waiting for the paint on the basecoat to outgas first. Probably be next weekend.

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Old 12-03-2006, 03:27 PM
  #338
Jim Henley
 
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Thanks for the feedback, I'm doing like the experts! I
Forgot about having to let the color coat settle down before you start the trim scheme, still looking forward to more photos.
I may try to get some shots of my project posted here later to show the progress.
Jim
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Old 12-03-2006, 03:38 PM
  #339
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So if you level the crutch and set incidence as written, when the plane is flying the stab will be level (attitude) giving the wings a negative angle of attack? Doesn't sound right! Sounds like it will be fighting itself, or am I thinking way off?

Almost have my top wing finished. I have been spending a large amount of time on the wing tips, mostly shaping and sanding that big block of wood I'm still undecided as to the mounting of my interplane struts. Without having the kit included hardware, I'm thinking about making my own out of aluminum.
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Old 12-03-2006, 08:46 PM
  #340
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Look at your plans. They use the crutch as the Datum line, and give you the incidences. If you check the numbers that they give, in relationship to the datum line, it does look kind of gillhooley, but they do fly right. I think that the general idea was to have the top wing stall last.

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Old 12-03-2006, 08:49 PM
  #341
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Default RE: WACO YMF

From Jim's experience, it seems that it is a good idea to have the wings and horizontal stab completed prior to the fuselage build. Then during construction when the basic fuselage is framed up, set up the incidence angles.
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Old 12-03-2006, 09:14 PM
  #342
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Two different schools of thought on that one
Not sure how Jims experience would have been any different regardless of the sequence. Sounds like he's overcoming it nicely though.

Bill:
I guess if I was to setup the way I was thinking I would be introducing drag and pitching. After doing some research I see a negative incidence on the wing actually helps remove drag and pitching up, interesting. If I had more experience I guess I would have been able to see it/know it right away. That's the trouble with me, I have to understand things
Thanx
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Old 12-03-2006, 09:41 PM
  #343
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Michael is right, in that the instruction booklet (what there is of it) has you build the wings first, and then the fuse. It just says to build the tailfeathers sort of as an afterthought. But if you have the flying surfaces built first, it is easier to set up the incidences. I had everything built prior to silver soldering the terminal lugs to the cabane wires. Made life lots easier too. The wing saddle was a sand to fit affair on every one of these that I have built. When I blow mine up to the 25 %er, I think that I will take a different approach to the Cabane arrangement, and the wing saddle as well. I've even been toying with making the horizontal stab adjustable. That way, we could fine tune the stab for the best flight characteristics. I'm thinking about a flex mount for the trailing edge, made of flat stock and tubing, and using a bolt and nut arrangement on the leading edge. That way I could insert a ball driver from the bottom and adjust the stab incidence. if I used a lock nut, I don't think that vibration would affect the setting. of course one could use a servo and cam arrangement to make the stab adjustable while flying. Or you could even use an electric motor to drive the bolt and have an ultra-fine power adjustment. Lots of time to think that one out.

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Old 12-03-2006, 09:55 PM
  #344
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Quote:
I had everything built prior to silver soldering the terminal lugs to the cabane wires.
That I agree with I started scratchbuilding my fuse to keep the incentive while I built the wings, it helped me a lot to keep the motivation alive. All I did was stare at the fuse and all the effort and I was ready to build some more on the wings. I did not mount the wing mounting block yet in the fuse or attach anything to the cabane supports yet, that will be last. I like to mount the tail relevant to the engine, then mount the wing relevant to the tail. This helps ME get everything square to the fuse.
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Old 12-03-2006, 11:16 PM
  #345
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Default RE: WACO YMF

This incidence thing is interesting... I was on the Waco club website and the have the factory set ups for some of the full size machines and you can ask them about the later ones and they read it out of the manual.. FWIW I rig mine by setting the fuselage at the flying attitude I want, set the stabiliser at 0 deg (level to the ground) and the wing chord line at +2 deg relative to the stabiliser. Note, not the wing bottom surface, but the imaginary line throught the centre of the leading edge to the centre of the trailing edge. This usually results in a model that flys `S & L' at something less then full power. Flying is easy, more power and it climbs, less and it descends. The next one I build will have an adjustable tailplane trimming device, as Bill suggests, similar to the full size but adjustable from the bottom of the fuse, and for initial trimming only, once happy with the cruise setting I'll just lock it up and leave it.
Evan.
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Old 12-04-2006, 04:20 AM
  #346
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I've been toying with that idea for years, but have never implemented it inot a build. I feel that it would be fairly simple to do, and as you said, you could lock it down once you have found the optium setting. I still like the idea of making it controllable while in flight. They are on the full scale.

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Old 12-04-2006, 10:07 PM
  #347
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Stickbuilder,
Will be trying to upload a pic of my waco,I don't do this enough, [:@] so PLEASE bear with me

George
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Old 12-04-2006, 10:15 PM
  #348
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Gentleman, this is my Waco, as previously stated ,solartex covered,leading edge & ailerons painted.
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Old 12-05-2006, 07:41 AM
  #349
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Interesting choice of color. Almost a reverse of mine. I am going to do some other things on the fuse though. The ailerons are going to remain base color. Looks as if it should be a good flyer.

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Old 12-05-2006, 12:40 PM
  #350
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Hi Bill,
I have to admit, it's the best flying plane I have

George
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