WACO YMF
11-20-2007, 09:10 PM
#4526
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RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: Hughes500E
Anyone know of a "for looks" option that would be acceptable?
Anyone know of a "for looks" option that would be acceptable?
11-20-2007, 09:44 PM
#4527
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RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: WacoJoe
Hi John,
Waco was all about building aircraft to customer specifications, so they did a lot of custom and one-off stuff. That being the case, it's very possible that they did the canopy installation on the YMF-5 that you're referring to. I've just never seen any documentation of it is all. That certainly doesn't hold a lot of water because there are several folks who are much more well versed on the history of Waco than I am. But if the factory did it, it's a pretty well kept secret!!
I have no knowledge of Waco building aircraft in Ontario Canada, but again that is not a guarantee that it didn't happen. My guess is that it may have been a license agreement situation. I'll have to see what I can find out about that. Someone on the National Waco Club forum will have the scoop.
Cheers!
Joe
WB #54
ORIGINAL: JoeAverage
WacoJoe,
Sorry I can't post the photo as it can't be downloaded but the Waco Club has a beautiful 1935 UMF-5 NC14687 posted on their site with a first rate canopy conversion done to it. (I took a photo of it off my monitor though) It looks like an old photo so maybe the factory had something to do with it. Originally sold to Ms. Hope Noyes Aviation. C.C. Hicksville, L.I. N.Y. I don't know what the C.C. means in the production record unless it has something to do with Custom Canopy.
Edit This looks like one of Texaco's AC at one time as well. It's c/n is 4215. It looks like it met it's end on or before 1945. It has not been redesignated. Records show c/n 4214 is a YMF-5 and still Airworthy.
Would you know if Waco had it's own factory in Ft. Erie, Ontario, Canada or if someone like Fleet was building them under licence? I was surprised to find out recently that there were Canadian built Wacos. The upper right corner of the one cover shows that this Waco was built in Fort Erie, Ontario. The other cover cuts off the name of Canadian City with Waco plant.
WacoJoe,
Sorry I can't post the photo as it can't be downloaded but the Waco Club has a beautiful 1935 UMF-5 NC14687 posted on their site with a first rate canopy conversion done to it. (I took a photo of it off my monitor though) It looks like an old photo so maybe the factory had something to do with it. Originally sold to Ms. Hope Noyes Aviation. C.C. Hicksville, L.I. N.Y. I don't know what the C.C. means in the production record unless it has something to do with Custom Canopy.
Edit This looks like one of Texaco's AC at one time as well. It's c/n is 4215. It looks like it met it's end on or before 1945. It has not been redesignated. Records show c/n 4214 is a YMF-5 and still Airworthy.
Would you know if Waco had it's own factory in Ft. Erie, Ontario, Canada or if someone like Fleet was building them under licence? I was surprised to find out recently that there were Canadian built Wacos. The upper right corner of the one cover shows that this Waco was built in Fort Erie, Ontario. The other cover cuts off the name of Canadian City with Waco plant.
Waco was all about building aircraft to customer specifications, so they did a lot of custom and one-off stuff. That being the case, it's very possible that they did the canopy installation on the YMF-5 that you're referring to. I've just never seen any documentation of it is all. That certainly doesn't hold a lot of water because there are several folks who are much more well versed on the history of Waco than I am. But if the factory did it, it's a pretty well kept secret!!
I have no knowledge of Waco building aircraft in Ontario Canada, but again that is not a guarantee that it didn't happen. My guess is that it may have been a license agreement situation. I'll have to see what I can find out about that. Someone on the National Waco Club forum will have the scoop.
Cheers!
Joe
WB #54
I should have posted the other 2 pics along with the enclosed UMF-5 in post 4474 seperately. The UMF-5 diverted attention from the Waco News pages that mention the Canadian Waco's.
They aree news letter pics I took off eBay. While I was keenly interested I left those items for "Real" Waco guys.
NC 14687 would make a great model subject for someone. Skylark made note of several modifications that eluded me. Given the relatively short life of Waco I would, if I were a betting man, wager that Waco did the work before it left the factory. My production records show that it was also the last UMF-5 produced. c/n 4215.
I'll check to see if there were any U/YMF-3/5 with a higher c/n.
EDIT: There is no original UMF or YMF models listed by the FAA with a serial number exceeding 4215. YMF-5 c/n 4214 N14607 is still airworthy. c/n 4213 N14128 still airworthy. YMF-5 c/n 4212 has been deregistered.
Cheers, John
11-20-2007, 10:37 PM
#4528
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RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: red1
Hi JoeAverage,
See my post above. Also, the caption on your photo reads as follows: "NC14000 is a 1937 Waco YKC mc/n that is owned by Byron and Jeannie Hight of San Jose. As this plane was once used by the Civil Air Patrol to patrol for enemy submarines, Byron has recently added CAP [Costal Patrol ] markings and is looking for a shackle, for his dummy bomb."
I have forwarded this photo to Col. Leonard Blascovich, CAP National Historian, asking if he knows of any CAP CP AC registration list.
Red 1 [aka Don Borton]
AMA IMAA
Waco Brotherhood #72
Hi JoeAverage,
See my post above. Also, the caption on your photo reads as follows: "NC14000 is a 1937 Waco YKC mc/n that is owned by Byron and Jeannie Hight of San Jose. As this plane was once used by the Civil Air Patrol to patrol for enemy submarines, Byron has recently added CAP [Costal Patrol ] markings and is looking for a shackle, for his dummy bomb."
I have forwarded this photo to Col. Leonard Blascovich, CAP National Historian, asking if he knows of any CAP CP AC registration list.
Red 1 [aka Don Borton]
AMA IMAA
Waco Brotherhood #72
Thank you for your efforts on our behalf to find out more. I was responding to another members query. I still spent 5 hours on the Google this morning going through CAP related material. While there was a shortage of pictures there were several Waco designations mentioned that I had never heard of before. I couldn't believe the amount of info on the topic.
The history is a fascinating component of the modelling for every member I've read. These objects that inspire us make us "Renaissance Men" for sure. It will take a mountain of paper records and a fellow like Col. Leonard Blascovich to enlighten further if possible. With the number of volunteers that Bill said there were, we may never know.
I'd love to know story of c/n 4215. Maybe Andy Heins may know. Any Waco Club members out there that may get his assistance? I have already asked him my share of questions.
Thanks, John
11-20-2007, 11:19 PM
#4529
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RE: WACO YMF
Make scale rigging
Model Airplane News, Apr 2002 by Ziroli, Nick Sr
HOW TO:
Easy non-functional flying wires
It isn't difficult to make scale rigging and flying wires for biplanes. The method described here is for nonstructural use and is only to improve the model's appearance. Once installed, the rigging takes just a few minutes to assemble or disassemble and is very realistic looking.
BOY SCOUTS TO THE RESCUE
If you were a Boy Scout, you are probably familiar with the rigging material that I used; it's called "plastic lace" and is available at most craft stores. It is the same flat, plastic material as we wove into lanyards, key chains and other novelty items when earning our Scouting badges (I've also heard the material referred to as "boondoggle" and "gimp"). Modelers will appreciate its realistic streamlined shape, low cost and the many colors it comes in. I used silver and bright silver chrome to make my rigging
The material is about 3/32 inch wide and about 1/32 inch thick-just about the right size for most 1/6- to 1/4-scale models. I used it on my 22.5-percent-scale, 87-inch-span Stearman PT-17, and it looks great.
HARDWARE
For sport scale, standard 2-56 devises make good-looking rigging connectors. Robart clevis links, however, are more realistic. These come packaged with Robart's swivelball control-horn sets and are secured into place with a small screw and locknut. Though they look more scale than the others, Robart devises, with their screws and nuts, take a bit more time to assemble and disassemble. To get the realism and ease of assembly that I wanted, I used a combination of these clevis types. I put the standard ones under the top wing where they aren't easily seen and the Robart clevises on top of the bottom wing, where they are always in clear view. To take the model apart, I simply disconnect the clevises from the upper wing and leave the Robart ones permanently attached to the bottom wing panels
MAKING RIGGING
It's very simple to make any length of flying and landing wire that you want. First, cut the rigging slightly oversize and then trim the front and rear edges of one end at a slight angle-about 1/4 inch long-and leave the end about 1/16 inch wide (see Figure 1). Hold the plastic with a pair of pliers, and screw the clevis over the end (don't use solder links). The tapered end allows the material to be threaded into the link; the threads bite into the material and make the connection stronger (it may help to squeeze the end of the lace with pliers to make it a little narrower).
Position the rigging so that its flat surface is parallel with the clevises' flat surfaces. Carefully fill the clevis body with thick Zap, and be sure to fill the space on each side of the plastic lacing. Use just enough glue to avoid having any excess run out the other side. The threads and CA make a very strong bond with the plastic lacing. I have attempted to pull the lacing out of the clevis, but it only stretches. The final length of the flying wires must be determined when the rigging is in place on the model.
Metal landing-gear straps make good attachment points for the rigging. Bend them in the middle to the proper angle and screw one end to a plywood plate in the wing, stabilizer, or fuselage side. The clevises can then be attached to the protruding tab. Attach the rigging to one of the tabs, and hold the other end to the opposite tab. The second clevis should be attached to the plastic lacing so that the final rigging length is shorter than needed. This allows you to stretch the rigging when both ends are connected. As a tightness guide, I have found that for rigging about 18 inches long, you should aim to make it 1/2 inch shorter. For a 24-inch rigging, make it about 3/4 inch shorter. Cut the lacing so that when it's stretched, it will fit inside the body of the second clevis.
PERMANENT RIGGING
Crimp-on electrical wiring lugs can also be used for permanent rigging such as that on a stabilizer or on cabane struts. RadioShack sells many lugs that are ideal for model use. The catalog number for the Solderless Ring Tongue set is 64-3030A. Use the 22-gauge wire lugs for no. 4 or no. 6 screw holes. Big homeimprovement stores also carry these lugs. They aren't threaded, so the lacing must be forced into the body and glued securely. Wire lugs are smaller than the clevis links and look better for permanent installations. Just be sure to include a hard point where they're attached to the model so you can screw them securely into place.
The next time you think your biplane needs a little something extra, add some rigging wires. I've built a number of models that went without rigging because it was just too much trouble. This method makes fabrication as well as field assembly and disassembly fast and easy. Give it a try; you'll love the results.
Pacer Technology, 9420 Santa Anita Ave., Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91730; (800) 538-3091; fax (909) 987-0497; www.pacertechnology.com.
Robart Mfg., P.O. Box 1247, 625 N. 12th St., St. Charles, IL 60174; (630) 584-7616; fax (630) 584-3712; www.robart.com.
Copyright Air Age Publishing Apr 2002
Model Airplane News, Apr 2002 by Ziroli, Nick Sr
HOW TO:
Easy non-functional flying wires
It isn't difficult to make scale rigging and flying wires for biplanes. The method described here is for nonstructural use and is only to improve the model's appearance. Once installed, the rigging takes just a few minutes to assemble or disassemble and is very realistic looking.
BOY SCOUTS TO THE RESCUE
If you were a Boy Scout, you are probably familiar with the rigging material that I used; it's called "plastic lace" and is available at most craft stores. It is the same flat, plastic material as we wove into lanyards, key chains and other novelty items when earning our Scouting badges (I've also heard the material referred to as "boondoggle" and "gimp"). Modelers will appreciate its realistic streamlined shape, low cost and the many colors it comes in. I used silver and bright silver chrome to make my rigging
The material is about 3/32 inch wide and about 1/32 inch thick-just about the right size for most 1/6- to 1/4-scale models. I used it on my 22.5-percent-scale, 87-inch-span Stearman PT-17, and it looks great.
HARDWARE
For sport scale, standard 2-56 devises make good-looking rigging connectors. Robart clevis links, however, are more realistic. These come packaged with Robart's swivelball control-horn sets and are secured into place with a small screw and locknut. Though they look more scale than the others, Robart devises, with their screws and nuts, take a bit more time to assemble and disassemble. To get the realism and ease of assembly that I wanted, I used a combination of these clevis types. I put the standard ones under the top wing where they aren't easily seen and the Robart clevises on top of the bottom wing, where they are always in clear view. To take the model apart, I simply disconnect the clevises from the upper wing and leave the Robart ones permanently attached to the bottom wing panels
MAKING RIGGING
It's very simple to make any length of flying and landing wire that you want. First, cut the rigging slightly oversize and then trim the front and rear edges of one end at a slight angle-about 1/4 inch long-and leave the end about 1/16 inch wide (see Figure 1). Hold the plastic with a pair of pliers, and screw the clevis over the end (don't use solder links). The tapered end allows the material to be threaded into the link; the threads bite into the material and make the connection stronger (it may help to squeeze the end of the lace with pliers to make it a little narrower).
Position the rigging so that its flat surface is parallel with the clevises' flat surfaces. Carefully fill the clevis body with thick Zap, and be sure to fill the space on each side of the plastic lacing. Use just enough glue to avoid having any excess run out the other side. The threads and CA make a very strong bond with the plastic lacing. I have attempted to pull the lacing out of the clevis, but it only stretches. The final length of the flying wires must be determined when the rigging is in place on the model.
Metal landing-gear straps make good attachment points for the rigging. Bend them in the middle to the proper angle and screw one end to a plywood plate in the wing, stabilizer, or fuselage side. The clevises can then be attached to the protruding tab. Attach the rigging to one of the tabs, and hold the other end to the opposite tab. The second clevis should be attached to the plastic lacing so that the final rigging length is shorter than needed. This allows you to stretch the rigging when both ends are connected. As a tightness guide, I have found that for rigging about 18 inches long, you should aim to make it 1/2 inch shorter. For a 24-inch rigging, make it about 3/4 inch shorter. Cut the lacing so that when it's stretched, it will fit inside the body of the second clevis.
PERMANENT RIGGING
Crimp-on electrical wiring lugs can also be used for permanent rigging such as that on a stabilizer or on cabane struts. RadioShack sells many lugs that are ideal for model use. The catalog number for the Solderless Ring Tongue set is 64-3030A. Use the 22-gauge wire lugs for no. 4 or no. 6 screw holes. Big homeimprovement stores also carry these lugs. They aren't threaded, so the lacing must be forced into the body and glued securely. Wire lugs are smaller than the clevis links and look better for permanent installations. Just be sure to include a hard point where they're attached to the model so you can screw them securely into place.
The next time you think your biplane needs a little something extra, add some rigging wires. I've built a number of models that went without rigging because it was just too much trouble. This method makes fabrication as well as field assembly and disassembly fast and easy. Give it a try; you'll love the results.
Pacer Technology, 9420 Santa Anita Ave., Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91730; (800) 538-3091; fax (909) 987-0497; www.pacertechnology.com.
Robart Mfg., P.O. Box 1247, 625 N. 12th St., St. Charles, IL 60174; (630) 584-7616; fax (630) 584-3712; www.robart.com.
Copyright Air Age Publishing Apr 2002
11-20-2007, 11:55 PM
#4530
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Georgian Bluffs,
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RE: WACO YMF
In My search for the overall diameter of of the Jacobs L-4 this is the only material I came across. The L-4 is 1118mm O.A. or 44" The rest may be of some use.
Common Waco engines
Waco Engine Code U
R-670, Continental W-670
Type: R-670-8 (W-670-17)
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Seven-cylinder air-cooled radial, direct drive.
Cylinders: Bore: 120mm Stroke: 117.5mm Capacity: 10.94 l
Compression: 5.4 to 1
Length: 868.4mm Diameter: 1079.5mm
Weight:
Power: 220hp
Waco Engine Code V
240hp Continental W-670-M
Revolutions: 2075rpm
Consumption: SFC:
Waco Engine Code H
R-680, Lycoming
Type: R-680-E3A
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Nine-cylinder air-cooled radial engine. Ungeared.
Cylinders: Bore: 117mm Stroke: 114mm Capacity: 11.15 l
Compression: 7 to 1
Length: 953.1mm Diameter: 1104.9mm
Weight: 223.9kg
Power: 300hp
Revolutions: 2300rpm
Consumption: SFC:
Waco Engine Code Y
R-755, Jacobs L-4
The radial engines of Jacobs were conservative designs, designed for
simplicity and robustness. They were widely used in trainers, and
proved to be very reliable.
Type: R-755A1 (L-4MB)
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Seven-cylinder air-cooled radial, unsupercharged and
ungeared.
Cylinders: Bore: 133mm Stroke: 127mm Capacity: 12.4 l
Length: 1020mm Diameter: 1118mm
Weight: 229kg
Power: 225hp, cruising 175hp
Revolutions: 2000rpm
Consumption: SFC:
Waco Engine Code E
Wright R-760-E2
350hp
R-760, Wright Whirlwind 7
The Whirlwind was built in seven-cylinder (R-760) and nin-cylinder
(R-975) versions. The Whirlwind series powered many aircraft and also
some tanks.
Waco Engine Code D
Type: R-760-E1
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Seven-cylinder, air-cooled radial, supercharged.
Cylinders: Bore: 127mm Stroke: 140mm Capacity: 12.4 l
Compression: 6.1 to 1
Length: Diameter: 1143mm
Weight: 259kg
Power: 300hp, 285hp normal
Revolutions: 2250rpm
Consumption: SFC:
R-830, Jacobs L-5
Waco Engine Code A
R-915, Jacobs L-6
Basically a larger, reinforced development of the R-755.
Type: R-915A1 (L-6MB)
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Seven-cylinder air-cooled radial, unsupercharged and
ungeared.
Cylinders: Bore: 139.7mm Stroke: 139.7mm Capacity: 14.97 l
Compression: 6 to 1
Length: 1030mm Diameter: 1160mm
Weight: 252kg
Power: 330hp, cruise 220hp
Revolutions: 2200rpm
Consumption: SFC: 0.24 kg/hp/hr
R-975, Wright Whirlwind 9
The Whirlwind was built in seven-cylinder (R-760) and nin-cylinder
(R-975) versions. The Whirlwind series powered many aircraft and also
some tanks.
Waco Engine Code W
Type: R-975-E3
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Nine-cylinder, air-cooled radial, supercharged.
Cylinders: Bore: 127mm Stroke: 140mm Capacity: 15.9 l
Compression: 6.3 to 1
Length: Diameter: 1143mm
Weight: 306kg
Power: 450hp, 412hp normal
Revolutions: 2250rpm
Consumption: SFC:
Waco Engine code S
R-985, Pratt & Whitney Wasp Jr
Type: R-985-T1B3
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Nine-cylinder air-cooled radial, supercharged, ungeared.
Cylinders: Bore: 131.76mm Stroke: 13176mm Capacity: 16.14 l
Compression: 6 to 1
Length: Diameter: 1170mm
Weight: 303kg dry
Power: 450 hp
Revolutions: 2300rpm
Consumption: SFC:
R-1300, Wright Cyclone 7
A seven-cylinder version of the R-1820 Cyclone 9.
From Janes Military Publications
Common Waco engines
Waco Engine Code U
R-670, Continental W-670
Type: R-670-8 (W-670-17)
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Seven-cylinder air-cooled radial, direct drive.
Cylinders: Bore: 120mm Stroke: 117.5mm Capacity: 10.94 l
Compression: 5.4 to 1
Length: 868.4mm Diameter: 1079.5mm
Weight:
Power: 220hp
Waco Engine Code V
240hp Continental W-670-M
Revolutions: 2075rpm
Consumption: SFC:
Waco Engine Code H
R-680, Lycoming
Type: R-680-E3A
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Nine-cylinder air-cooled radial engine. Ungeared.
Cylinders: Bore: 117mm Stroke: 114mm Capacity: 11.15 l
Compression: 7 to 1
Length: 953.1mm Diameter: 1104.9mm
Weight: 223.9kg
Power: 300hp
Revolutions: 2300rpm
Consumption: SFC:
Waco Engine Code Y
R-755, Jacobs L-4
The radial engines of Jacobs were conservative designs, designed for
simplicity and robustness. They were widely used in trainers, and
proved to be very reliable.
Type: R-755A1 (L-4MB)
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Seven-cylinder air-cooled radial, unsupercharged and
ungeared.
Cylinders: Bore: 133mm Stroke: 127mm Capacity: 12.4 l
Length: 1020mm Diameter: 1118mm
Weight: 229kg
Power: 225hp, cruising 175hp
Revolutions: 2000rpm
Consumption: SFC:
Waco Engine Code E
Wright R-760-E2
350hp
R-760, Wright Whirlwind 7
The Whirlwind was built in seven-cylinder (R-760) and nin-cylinder
(R-975) versions. The Whirlwind series powered many aircraft and also
some tanks.
Waco Engine Code D
Type: R-760-E1
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Seven-cylinder, air-cooled radial, supercharged.
Cylinders: Bore: 127mm Stroke: 140mm Capacity: 12.4 l
Compression: 6.1 to 1
Length: Diameter: 1143mm
Weight: 259kg
Power: 300hp, 285hp normal
Revolutions: 2250rpm
Consumption: SFC:
R-830, Jacobs L-5
Waco Engine Code A
R-915, Jacobs L-6
Basically a larger, reinforced development of the R-755.
Type: R-915A1 (L-6MB)
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Seven-cylinder air-cooled radial, unsupercharged and
ungeared.
Cylinders: Bore: 139.7mm Stroke: 139.7mm Capacity: 14.97 l
Compression: 6 to 1
Length: 1030mm Diameter: 1160mm
Weight: 252kg
Power: 330hp, cruise 220hp
Revolutions: 2200rpm
Consumption: SFC: 0.24 kg/hp/hr
R-975, Wright Whirlwind 9
The Whirlwind was built in seven-cylinder (R-760) and nin-cylinder
(R-975) versions. The Whirlwind series powered many aircraft and also
some tanks.
Waco Engine Code W
Type: R-975-E3
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Nine-cylinder, air-cooled radial, supercharged.
Cylinders: Bore: 127mm Stroke: 140mm Capacity: 15.9 l
Compression: 6.3 to 1
Length: Diameter: 1143mm
Weight: 306kg
Power: 450hp, 412hp normal
Revolutions: 2250rpm
Consumption: SFC:
Waco Engine code S
R-985, Pratt & Whitney Wasp Jr
Type: R-985-T1B3
Year: Country: USA
Configuration: Nine-cylinder air-cooled radial, supercharged, ungeared.
Cylinders: Bore: 131.76mm Stroke: 13176mm Capacity: 16.14 l
Compression: 6 to 1
Length: Diameter: 1170mm
Weight: 303kg dry
Power: 450 hp
Revolutions: 2300rpm
Consumption: SFC:
R-1300, Wright Cyclone 7
A seven-cylinder version of the R-1820 Cyclone 9.
From Janes Military Publications
11-21-2007, 04:54 AM
#4531
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RE: WACO YMF
Guys,
I may be jumping in too prematurely here but I have some info on the Canopy versions. I am currently obtaining full scale construction plans to scratch build a UPF-7 with the custom canopy and modified turtle deck. With the L-5 275 hp Jake radial this will basically give me a modern ZPF-7. My drawings and information come from a long time Waco restorer who has been restoring full scale Waco's for 39 years. I will try to be brief because my information is second hand and I have an incredible respect for John so I would not want to quote him poorly or incorrectly. His knowledge is incredible and the depth is amazing. Almost all of the following information is quoted from John. Some has been slightly modified for length and content to get the info included from numerous conversations. If there are any mistakes then they are from me trying to condense the info to better fit into this posting, not Johns.
John obtained the drawings from the Smithsonian from the original F-6's and eventually developed a drawing package for the "Coupe Top" with turtle deck modifications for other Waco club members who wished to add a coupe top to their former stock UPF-7's. There are now several versions but John feels that one of the best conversions is the ZPF-7 that Skylark posted in a reply to me back around page 163 to 165 or there abouts. I'm leaving out names since no one has actually given me permission to be dropping real Waco owners names.
Now here is the actual info, quoted as correctly as possible but somwhat condensed; back in 1936 Waco first introduced the "Coupe Top" modification as standard equipment on F-6 models primarily because their market was the flying sportsman and the flying business executive who wanted speed and comfort in year-round flying. Only when the wartime training role loomed did Waco revert the UPF-7 back to a OPEN rear cockpit as standard equipment. There are apparently a number of owners who are now wanting to incorporate the factory approved change replacing the open rear cockpit with the racier looking optional coupe top with a sliding canopy over the rear seat and a removable tonneau cover or hatch over the front seat. This gives them in a sense the more exotic beauty of the ZPF-6 and 7 combined with the structural improvements of the UPF-7. This would be the wider landing gear to eliminate the groundlooping problem, the flat upper wing, and the easier front cockpit access. This last change was a government required modification for better egress for the instructor to be able to bail out if required. The change in designations from UPF to YPF or ZPF is not actually from the coupe top modifications it is actually because of the engine changes from the Continental to the Jake. There were 3 options the L-4 with 225 hp (Waco code Y) the L-5 with 285 hp (Waco code Z) and the L-6 with 330 hp (Waco code A). See JoeAverage's post for a very complete listing of Waco engine and model code designations.
With my natural desire for bigger must be better I figured, cool, I'll get the 330 hp Jake and go like a raped ape. I've been informed that Waco stressed the aircraft to + or - 7.5 G's with a maximum safe hp at 320 hp. Waco evidently never used the L-6 for this reason. I was informed that the version was fondly referred to as the "Time Bomb" and so I have elected to go with the present ever popular L-5 with 275 hp. Evidently the FAA does not recognize all of this and designates these Waco's as UPF-7's. The owners however wish to designate their models with proper Waco designations regardless of what the FAA feels.
I have a ton of planning and preparations before I can actually start my full scale UPF-7/ZPF-7 modification build but have promised Number 1 that I will be posting my build progress pictures here on the thread since Bill is the one who got me in touch with the right people who eventually placed me with John. As a Waco Brotherhood member I am pretty much twitching to begin my build but I want to strive for complete perfection so I am doing everything correctly and in their proper sequence.
I hope this answers some or most of the questions on the canopy versons.
Ben
Mr. Lucky
Waco Brotherhood #74
I may be jumping in too prematurely here but I have some info on the Canopy versions. I am currently obtaining full scale construction plans to scratch build a UPF-7 with the custom canopy and modified turtle deck. With the L-5 275 hp Jake radial this will basically give me a modern ZPF-7. My drawings and information come from a long time Waco restorer who has been restoring full scale Waco's for 39 years. I will try to be brief because my information is second hand and I have an incredible respect for John so I would not want to quote him poorly or incorrectly. His knowledge is incredible and the depth is amazing. Almost all of the following information is quoted from John. Some has been slightly modified for length and content to get the info included from numerous conversations. If there are any mistakes then they are from me trying to condense the info to better fit into this posting, not Johns.
John obtained the drawings from the Smithsonian from the original F-6's and eventually developed a drawing package for the "Coupe Top" with turtle deck modifications for other Waco club members who wished to add a coupe top to their former stock UPF-7's. There are now several versions but John feels that one of the best conversions is the ZPF-7 that Skylark posted in a reply to me back around page 163 to 165 or there abouts. I'm leaving out names since no one has actually given me permission to be dropping real Waco owners names.
Now here is the actual info, quoted as correctly as possible but somwhat condensed; back in 1936 Waco first introduced the "Coupe Top" modification as standard equipment on F-6 models primarily because their market was the flying sportsman and the flying business executive who wanted speed and comfort in year-round flying. Only when the wartime training role loomed did Waco revert the UPF-7 back to a OPEN rear cockpit as standard equipment. There are apparently a number of owners who are now wanting to incorporate the factory approved change replacing the open rear cockpit with the racier looking optional coupe top with a sliding canopy over the rear seat and a removable tonneau cover or hatch over the front seat. This gives them in a sense the more exotic beauty of the ZPF-6 and 7 combined with the structural improvements of the UPF-7. This would be the wider landing gear to eliminate the groundlooping problem, the flat upper wing, and the easier front cockpit access. This last change was a government required modification for better egress for the instructor to be able to bail out if required. The change in designations from UPF to YPF or ZPF is not actually from the coupe top modifications it is actually because of the engine changes from the Continental to the Jake. There were 3 options the L-4 with 225 hp (Waco code Y) the L-5 with 285 hp (Waco code Z) and the L-6 with 330 hp (Waco code A). See JoeAverage's post for a very complete listing of Waco engine and model code designations.
With my natural desire for bigger must be better I figured, cool, I'll get the 330 hp Jake and go like a raped ape. I've been informed that Waco stressed the aircraft to + or - 7.5 G's with a maximum safe hp at 320 hp. Waco evidently never used the L-6 for this reason. I was informed that the version was fondly referred to as the "Time Bomb" and so I have elected to go with the present ever popular L-5 with 275 hp. Evidently the FAA does not recognize all of this and designates these Waco's as UPF-7's. The owners however wish to designate their models with proper Waco designations regardless of what the FAA feels.
I have a ton of planning and preparations before I can actually start my full scale UPF-7/ZPF-7 modification build but have promised Number 1 that I will be posting my build progress pictures here on the thread since Bill is the one who got me in touch with the right people who eventually placed me with John. As a Waco Brotherhood member I am pretty much twitching to begin my build but I want to strive for complete perfection so I am doing everything correctly and in their proper sequence.
I hope this answers some or most of the questions on the canopy versons.
Ben
Mr. Lucky
Waco Brotherhood #74
11-21-2007, 05:14 AM
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RE: WACO YMF
All,
I went back to find the Skylark post and I found I was way off. The post is number 4313 on page 173. This is a Red with black or dark blue trim ZPF-7 with the factory approved coupe top modification.
Ben
Brother # 74
I went back to find the Skylark post and I found I was way off. The post is number 4313 on page 173. This is a Red with black or dark blue trim ZPF-7 with the factory approved coupe top modification.
Ben
Brother # 74
11-21-2007, 02:17 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
I made an interesting discovery last night, I think. It seems that the Ziroli Texan cowl is a perfect match for the 1/4 scale YMF. Of course , it does not have the blisters, but the diameter and the depth seem nearly perfect, and the blisters should not be much of a problem to add.
Scott
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11-21-2007, 03:55 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
All
I don’t know any more about this kit, other than what is on the website, but Iron Bay Models http://www.ironbaymodelcompany.com/ has an 88” Waco UPF-7 (1/4 Scale) that is supposed to have a fiberglass fuselage and foam wings or laser cut built-up wood structure wings. Bulkheads are pre-installed, wings and tail assembled and more. Seems to be inbetween an ARF and a full wood kit and you will have to contact them for more information and pricing.
Mango12 (Scott),
This may be a source for a ÂĽ scale cowl for your YMF if it has the blisters. You can always make a Cuban UMF with a smooth cowl. See the NWC site for photos.
I don’t know any more about this kit, other than what is on the website, but Iron Bay Models http://www.ironbaymodelcompany.com/ has an 88” Waco UPF-7 (1/4 Scale) that is supposed to have a fiberglass fuselage and foam wings or laser cut built-up wood structure wings. Bulkheads are pre-installed, wings and tail assembled and more. Seems to be inbetween an ARF and a full wood kit and you will have to contact them for more information and pricing.
Mango12 (Scott),
This may be a source for a ÂĽ scale cowl for your YMF if it has the blisters. You can always make a Cuban UMF with a smooth cowl. See the NWC site for photos.
11-21-2007, 04:29 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
John, thanks for the suggestion, and I had actually considered that particular model, but then I saw " HB-UPZ" and, well, you know how it is. The original cowl I got for this model has two sheets of fiberglass blisters, so it won't be much trouble to add them to the AT6 cowl.
Scott
Scott
11-21-2007, 04:57 PM
#4539
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
John,
The IronBay UPF-7 is the old Byron's Original kit. IronBay has most of Byron's old molds, and the program for cutting the foam cores for the wings. These were great scale models 30 years ago, or even 25, but they have some issues that I don't think IronBay has resolved.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
The IronBay UPF-7 is the old Byron's Original kit. IronBay has most of Byron's old molds, and the program for cutting the foam cores for the wings. These were great scale models 30 years ago, or even 25, but they have some issues that I don't think IronBay has resolved.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-21-2007, 05:03 PM
#4540
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
To: ALL.....
I had a nice surprise waiting on the front porch when I arrived home this afternoon. Fibertech must have jumped through hoops to get this one to me. Thanks Brad. Here it is, and it is great. Not a pin hole to be found. The cowl lip will need some trimming, but that is the same depth that the one that came in the kit has. It's what Dremel sells power tools for. Get yours on order fast. I bet that everyone who has the COX version will be ordering one of these.
Thanks to Jay (damifino) for building a great plug for Brad to use in making the mold. This is the first one to be delivered.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
I had a nice surprise waiting on the front porch when I arrived home this afternoon. Fibertech must have jumped through hoops to get this one to me. Thanks Brad. Here it is, and it is great. Not a pin hole to be found. The cowl lip will need some trimming, but that is the same depth that the one that came in the kit has. It's what Dremel sells power tools for. Get yours on order fast. I bet that everyone who has the COX version will be ordering one of these.
Thanks to Jay (damifino) for building a great plug for Brad to use in making the mold. This is the first one to be delivered.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-21-2007, 06:08 PM
#4541
My Feedback: (1)
RE: WACO YMF
I looked closely at the Iron Bay pic of their UPF. I'm like John, don't know anything about them, but can immediately see several screaming departures from scale, the wings being the most glaring. The tips are ALL WRONG, they look like the original tips on my ARF. No curvature on the underside, and a very incorrect curvature on top, they look like the wings on an EAA bipe. Cabane struts wrong, fuse shape,wrong. I'm sure it doesn't cost much, too
Bill, the cowl looks wonderful. What's the price gonna be like? Can you post the exact dimensions, ie., rear diameter, and front opening diameter, and depth (which I know can be changed as needed).
Bill, the cowl looks wonderful. What's the price gonna be like? Can you post the exact dimensions, ie., rear diameter, and front opening diameter, and depth (which I know can be changed as needed).
11-21-2007, 06:39 PM
#4542
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
Ken,
As I posted, the Iron Bay Waco is the old Byrons Original plane, as are most of their offerings, with all the plusses and minuses. The wing detail is one of the minuses.
The cowl measures: Rear diameter= 8.1/4"
Front opening diameter= 6 1/8"
Length front to back= 5 1/8"
The transition from the cowl to the blisters is beautiful. He had to make the mold in 4 pieces to be able to remove the cowl with the blisters, but the glass work is exquisite. The front lip on the cowl will need to be cut back to replicate the scale opening, but again, that is what a Dremel with a cut-off wheel is for. Washing with soap and warm water will remove the release wax, and a light sanding will remove all parting lines. A little primer, and paint, and you will be good to go. There is not a single void, nor a pin hole in the cowl. Again, It's as nearly perfect as I have seen. Every blister is accurate in height and spacing.
The price is $57.00 plus shipping. It's a bargain. I don't even want to guess how many hours I have invested in the stock one, and this one is just as good (maybe a tad better) It is a little stronger than is the ABS plastic unit that comes in the kit.
Remember, this time last week, we did not have a source for a scale YMF cowl. All you could get your hands on were those for the UMF. We owe Jay (damifino) a vote of gratitude, and hat's off to Brad as well.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
As I posted, the Iron Bay Waco is the old Byrons Original plane, as are most of their offerings, with all the plusses and minuses. The wing detail is one of the minuses.
The cowl measures: Rear diameter= 8.1/4"
Front opening diameter= 6 1/8"
Length front to back= 5 1/8"
The transition from the cowl to the blisters is beautiful. He had to make the mold in 4 pieces to be able to remove the cowl with the blisters, but the glass work is exquisite. The front lip on the cowl will need to be cut back to replicate the scale opening, but again, that is what a Dremel with a cut-off wheel is for. Washing with soap and warm water will remove the release wax, and a light sanding will remove all parting lines. A little primer, and paint, and you will be good to go. There is not a single void, nor a pin hole in the cowl. Again, It's as nearly perfect as I have seen. Every blister is accurate in height and spacing.
The price is $57.00 plus shipping. It's a bargain. I don't even want to guess how many hours I have invested in the stock one, and this one is just as good (maybe a tad better) It is a little stronger than is the ABS plastic unit that comes in the kit.
Remember, this time last week, we did not have a source for a scale YMF cowl. All you could get your hands on were those for the UMF. We owe Jay (damifino) a vote of gratitude, and hat's off to Brad as well.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-21-2007, 06:54 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
Thanks for posting the pictures of the cowl. I am very happy to hear positive feedback on the finished part. I have around 15 hours invested in the plug and to hear that Brad at Stan's turned out a nice product makes the effort worthwhile. Looking forward to getting mine. Are you happy with the height and length of the blisters? I looked at enough of them on the 'net to see they vary slightly from plane to plane and I think I hit it right in the middle as far as height goes.
Thanks for the kind words.......Jay
Thanks for the kind words.......Jay
11-21-2007, 06:54 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
Bill,
Thanks for the info on Iron Bay. I was looking for a kit or plans for a 1/5th or 1/6th scale De Havilland Beaver DHC-2 when I came across the site (found the DHC-2 over on the Unionville site). I didn’t look too hard at it as the Iron Bay site does not give much info or prices, just tagged it as another possible source for a Waco.
The cowl looks great (nice and uniform) and it looks like he made a 4 piece mould for it. Cell phones make nice supports, but please tell me you haven’t started with the Christmas stuff BEFORE Thanksgiving.[X(]
Thanks for the info on Iron Bay. I was looking for a kit or plans for a 1/5th or 1/6th scale De Havilland Beaver DHC-2 when I came across the site (found the DHC-2 over on the Unionville site). I didn’t look too hard at it as the Iron Bay site does not give much info or prices, just tagged it as another possible source for a Waco.
The cowl looks great (nice and uniform) and it looks like he made a 4 piece mould for it. Cell phones make nice supports, but please tell me you haven’t started with the Christmas stuff BEFORE Thanksgiving.[X(]
11-21-2007, 08:29 PM
#4546
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: damifino
Thanks for posting the pictures of the cowl. I am very happy to hear positive feedback on the finished part. I have around 15 hours invested in the plug and to hear that Brad at Stan's turned out a nice product makes the effort worthwhile. Looking forward to getting mine. Are you happy with the height and length of the blisters? I looked at enough of them on the 'net to see they vary slightly from plane to plane and I think I hit it right in the middle as far as height goes.
Thanks for the kind words.......Jay
Thanks for posting the pictures of the cowl. I am very happy to hear positive feedback on the finished part. I have around 15 hours invested in the plug and to hear that Brad at Stan's turned out a nice product makes the effort worthwhile. Looking forward to getting mine. Are you happy with the height and length of the blisters? I looked at enough of them on the 'net to see they vary slightly from plane to plane and I think I hit it right in the middle as far as height goes.
Thanks for the kind words.......Jay
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-21-2007, 08:35 PM
#4547
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1
Bill,
The cowl looks great (nice and uniform) and it looks like he made a 4 piece mould for it. Cell phones make nice supports, but please tell me you haven’t started with the Christmas stuff BEFORE Thanksgiving.[X(]
Bill,
The cowl looks great (nice and uniform) and it looks like he made a 4 piece mould for it. Cell phones make nice supports, but please tell me you haven’t started with the Christmas stuff BEFORE Thanksgiving.[X(]
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-21-2007, 08:54 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
John,
The IronBay UPF-7 is the old Byron's Original kit. IronBay has most of Byron's old molds, and the program for cutting the foam cores for the wings. These were great scale models 30 years ago, or even 25, but they have some issues that I don't think IronBay has resolved.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
John,
The IronBay UPF-7 is the old Byron's Original kit. IronBay has most of Byron's old molds, and the program for cutting the foam cores for the wings. These were great scale models 30 years ago, or even 25, but they have some issues that I don't think IronBay has resolved.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
Try buying anything from them. I haven't had any luck for a while. Byron's UPF's .
11-21-2007, 08:56 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
Bill,
Thanks for the link and I understand lead times. I was hoping you hadn't started decorating for Christmas, but with Jannelles craft work it must look like Christmas most of the year.
Thanks for the link and I understand lead times. I was hoping you hadn't started decorating for Christmas, but with Jannelles craft work it must look like Christmas most of the year.
11-21-2007, 11:13 PM
#4550
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1
Bill,
Thanks for the link and I understand lead times. I was hoping you hadn't started decorating for Christmas, but with Jannelles craft work it must look like Christmas most of the year.
Bill,
Thanks for the link and I understand lead times. I was hoping you hadn't started decorating for Christmas, but with Jannelles craft work it must look like Christmas most of the year.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1