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Thread: WACO YMF


  1. #4676

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    RE: WACO YMF

    John-

    Thanks for the lightning fast response. I'm pleased to know that my planned exhaust location will look more or less scale. I was actually just doing it that way because it seemed like the best way to conceal as much of the stock exhaust as possible.

    My main concern was more of a mechanical question: How can I attach some sort of an extension to the Saito exhaust and have it stay on? My preference would be to use some sort of metal extension. BTW, this is the old-style Saito exhaust.

    Thanks,
    -Scott
    WACO Brotherhood #61

  2. #4677

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    RE: WACO YMF

    John,
    Thanks for the info. I went with 3/16 round aluminum tube . Looks close..
    Tony, AMA 120246
    WACO Brotherhood #71

  3. #4678

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    RE: WACO YMF


    ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

    That statement comes from many years of fiddling with high drag airplanes, and the WACO's qualify as such. It is not something that you come up with, but something that you have experienced.[:'(]
    Amen Brother Bill!!

    Cheers!

    Joe
    WB #54

  4. #4679
    mrdhud's Avatar
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    RE: WACO YMF

    Stickerbuilder

    Bill, I think i have it right now take a look see what you think.
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    Dan Hudson WACO Brotherhood #45
    GIT-ER-DUN \"Build a WACO\"

  5. #4680
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    RE: WACO YMF

    khodges, sent you pm
    thanks
    Dan Hudson WACO Brotherhood #45
    GIT-ER-DUN \"Build a WACO\"

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    RE: WACO YMF

    Dan.
    You might think about blocks were your hinges go?
    Tony, AMA 120246
    WACO Brotherhood #71

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    RE: WACO YMF


    ORIGINAL: mrdhud

    Stickerbuilder

    Bill, I think i have it right now take a look see what you think.
    Dan,

    Make the top of the rudder and vertical stab follow the profile of the leading edge (sand it a little more). Other than that, it looks great.

    Bill, AMA 4720
    WACO Brotherhood #1
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  8. #4683
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    RE: WACO YMF

    Question on the landing tendancies of these birds. Has anyone tried using a computer radio to dial in some flap mixing to the ailerons (creating flaperons)to see if this helps? Just curious as to whether it would help.
    Rick, AMA 115812-WACO Brotherhood #75
    To discover something better....You must be willing to try something different

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    RE: WACO YMF

    Khodges,
    Here are some shots of the "shock absorbing" gear that I copied from you. The question is, how stiff should the spring be?
    As you indicated the spring is stiff enough that I can not compress it between my fingers, however when it is installed, I can move the gear enough to bottom the spring out. What do you think more length and stiffness?
    Thanks
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    Jim,
    WACO Brotherhood #3, AMA 816592, IMAA 41683,

  10. #4685

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    RE: WACO YMF


    ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1

    Ken,

    Did the Air and Space Smithsonian article mention anything about the Fokker DR1 Tri-plane that the Red Barron was famous for flying? What was the percentage of lift generated by the Top, Middle and Lower wings? Wacky Waco guys want to know .
    I paraphrased on the title of the article. It was actually "What the Red Baron Never Knew".

    The article devotes an entire page, with a really nice, color computer generated simulation of the pressure fields around the triplane's wings. The low pressure field above the top wing is very large, and the high pressure field below the bottom wing is also very large, but the re is hardly any high pressure area under the middle or top wing, and the low pressure fields above the lower and middle wing are also greatly decreased.

    To quote Air and Space:"When you place one wing above another, each modifies the pressure field of the other.....in the case of a biplane.....you end up getting less lift from the lower wing. Overall, the efficiency-- the ratio of lift to drag-- of the lift producing system is lower." Then it talks about the Triplane, and describes the computer simulated image, and what happens: "We see the three wings of the Fokker Triplane at an angle of attack of ten degrees, which corresponds to a steep climb or a tight turn......What is most striking is that the middle wing's contribution is very meager. Its high and low pressures are partially cancelled by the wings above and below it. A monoplane wing, in contrast, would combine the high pressure below the Triplane's bottom wing with the low pressure above its top wing, yielding maximum lift for minimum drag."

    I have , in my "Favorites" file in my computer, an article that addresses the wing failures in the Fokker Triplane as well as the Nieuport 28, and to a lesser extent, the Fokker D-VII and D-VIII. It speaks to the high pressures being as much as 2.55 times greater on the top wing as the mid or lower wing on the triplane.
    Club Saito #2, WACO Brotherhood #20. What other trouble can I get into?

  11. #4686

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    RE: WACO YMF

    Jim, that looks nice! I like the links, they look like heim joints. Here's my take on this whole system: A longer spring would give more travel, and tend to more gradually absorb the shock, than using a stiffer spring. In either case, the primary function of the struts is to limit the spreading of the main gear as they try to collapse from landing shock. The downside of the longer spring, I believe, would be an equivalent rebound, although the leverage on rebound would be less than on extension of the gear (compression of the spring). Also to consider is the available space for a longer spring to fit. It would be a matter of trial and error to find the correct length and stiffness, and the "perfect" combination is only going to work in a fairly narrow range. A light, "greased in" landing won't make a difference, but the harder the landing gets, the closer you get to whatever limit is established by the particular spring you have. Once it bottoms out, the stresses are transferred to the next structure. In the case of the struts, that would be either the lower end of the gear leg where the strut attaches, or the attach point of the strut to the spring assmbly, or the spring assembly to the wood block on the fuse, or the block's attachment to the fuse. These are the potential failure points, and whichever is the weakest will be the first one to break if you land hard enough to surpass the system's ability to absorb the shock. One other thing in the system that can assist the strut's shock absorption is the resilience of the tires. We've all seen that harder tires bounce more; a softer tire would tend to damp the spring strut's rebound, but they still need to be hard enough that they don't collapse to the rim when the plane touches down.

    I found that that was what was happening to me with the Robart tires/wheels. They did a great job of damping the bounce from landing, whether or not the spring bottomed out, but they were so soft that the weight of the plane itself could flatten them after sitting a short while, and the sidewalls were getting torn up by the edge of the wheel when they would completely collapse on touchdown. They were a good combination, though, with the spring strut. (and flat tires make great brakes, too)

    I've been playing with the Robart tires, packing them with different materials to alter their firmness. The best I've come up with is a dense foam rubber. I cut up a piece of water pipe insulation (the foam rubber kind that is formed to fit around the pipe) and made strips that fit inside the tires. They are firm enough now that they don't flatten under the weight of the plane, but have the appearance of a normally inflated tire(slightly flattened on the bottom). I can still mash the tread almost to the rim, but not quite, and they spring immediately back to shape. I also have some of the inserts on order that Robart makes for these tires. I suspect that they are similar to what I've cobbled up, and I'll do one tire my way, and one with the Robart insert, and compare.

    It all boils down to the fact that the gear will only go so far, and learning the right combination of power and sink rate is what it takes; this is something I seem to be way behind the curve with, at least on a consistent basis. One good thing about coming in a bit faster and with more power is the better likelihood of successfully aborting the landing, hitting the throttle and going around when the touchdown is bouncier than you like. One thing is for sure, as far as I'm concerned: I'll not land on pavement again.


    While I have vocal diarrhea, I'll comment on Rick's flaperon question. These birds already have a lot of drag, I think the additional drag from four ailerons (as flaps) would negate whatever lift they'd make, and you'd have to come in even hotter, or you'd stall quicker. I might be wrong (sure wouldn't be the first, or last time, either), but if anyone wants to experiment, be my guest.
    Club Saito #2, WACO Brotherhood #20. What other trouble can I get into?

  12. #4687
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    RE: WACO YMF

    Ken, Rick and all,

    Flaps were in full use when the YMF WACO Was designed. The SRE and probably some others used them with great success. The SRE and other Cabin models were a lot cleaner than was the YMF/UMF design. Cost was not a real factor with the Waco offerings, so I don't think that Advance Aircraft eliminated flaps to save money. Weight was not a factor as well. I just don't think the plane needs flaps, or flapperons to land well. I think (from my experience) that the YMF/UMF must be, "Felt out", and the pilot needs to see where the happy speed on approach is, and fly the plane to the runway, and then stop the flight of the plane once the wheels are down. Ask WACO Joe. I think that he will agree that you can't expect to let the plane fall the last 30 inches, and the fifth scale does not need to fall the last 6 inches as well. Try to fly the wheels all the way down, then kill the power and let the tail settle. This is not your first model airplane, and you have learned to land the others as well. These just land differently. They take off differently as well. Did you notice that when the model is trimmed well, as you give it throttle, the plane just lifts off the runway and elevates to gain altitude? There is minimal rotation, and the nose does not need to point upward very much. The sucker just lifts off and gains altitude as long as the power is in. In this case, the throttle kind of makes the airplane climb and lose altitude, while the elevator speeds and slows the plane. All that is while flying within the scale envelope. If you are grossly overpowered, and if the model will hover with you choice of power, then all bets are off.

    Bill, AMA 4720
    WACO Brotherhood #1
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  13. #4688

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    RE: WACO YMF

    I totally agree on developing the right technique for the plane. My comments about the flaps includes considering where flaps would be IF they had been included on these planes (and where they WERE on the SRE) and that is inboard on the wing, where lift developed is greater than out toward the wingtips. Flaperons on our models are compromises at best, and work a lot better on some wings than on others. On the YMF wings, I'd be worried about stalling the wingtips and then loss of whatever aileron authority you needed, even though the remainder of the wing might be producing enough lift to fly at the reduced speeds on approach.

    I'd almost bet the SRE could fly without the bottom wing; it's bound to be less than a 1/3 the area of the top wing (both less span and shorter chord). Based on the Air and Space article, it can't make more than a fraction of the total lift, all it would take is a bit higher airspeed for takeoff, and a higher stall speed. It cruised at over 175 mph anyway. Just a thought.
    Club Saito #2, WACO Brotherhood #20. What other trouble can I get into?

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    RE: WACO YMF

    Scott,
    Your installation looks like mine, I have the 1/5 scale WACO with the Saito 150. I used a remote glow set up that let me put the glow igniter in an inconspicious location. Behind the pilot on the Stearman and in the luggage hatch on the WACO. The remote glow eliminates having to cut an access hole in your cowl.

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    Jim,
    WACO Brotherhood #3, AMA 816592, IMAA 41683,

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    RE: WACO YMF

    Ken,
    I am with you and Bill on this one, each aircraft requires a different technique, my goal is to learn that technique before I total the airplane. That said, hopefully the landing gear mods and diffferent tires will, give me a chance to learn how to fly this thing down to the runway with out tearing it up.
    The spring I used, I cut a couple of coils off to shorten it up, I think I'll pick up another and a 2" 6-32 cap screw and see how that works. My problem is, once the hole is covered up it is major surgery to change the spring.
    Thanks for the advise.
    Jim,
    WACO Brotherhood #3, AMA 816592, IMAA 41683,

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    RE: WACO YMF

    I wonder that given the gross negative stagger of the Beech 17, does the lower wing produce more lift than does the upper, since it is the first surface presented to the lifting force? Maybe the data that we are looking at does not take the gross positive stagger of the Waco into consideration. The Fokker DR1 does not have much if any stagger, nor did many Biplanes of the World War 1 era. Most were actually stacked directly over the other. Does the Waco Stagger actually act like a monoplane with a much longer chord, with a thicker wingplan? Or is this all out in left field?

    Bill, AMA 4720
    WACO Brotherhood #1
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

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    RE: WACO YMF

    Tony

    Thanks for the tip on hinge blocks sounds like a good idea.
    Dan Hudson WACO Brotherhood #45
    GIT-ER-DUN \"Build a WACO\"

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    RE: WACO YMF

    Dan,

    What hinges are you going to use? If you are using the Robart style of hinge points, then the blocks will be necessary. If you are using a pinned hinge, then the wood that is already present is sufficient.

    Bill, AMA 4720
    WACO Brotherhood #1
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  19. #4694

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    RE: WACO YMF


    ORIGINAL: Jim Henley

    Scott,
    Your installation looks like mine, I have the 1/5 scale WACO with the Saito 150. I used a remote glow set up that let me put the glow igniter in an inconspicious location. Behind the pilot on the Stearman and in the luggage hatch on the WACO. The remote glow eliminates having to cut an access hole in your cowl.

    That's a good idea. Looks nice and clean on yours. You're still not telling me how you did the exhaust. Was yours the one I saw about 20 pages ago with the custom fabricated exhaust? I think I'm probably just going to stick a copper extension on with JB Weld.

    Thanks,
    -Scott
    WACO Brotherhood #61

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    RE: WACO YMF

    I've also wondered about how much the wing stagger affects how the wings make lift. There was no mention of stagger in the article, and indeed, there is very little in the planes which highlighted the article, namely the DR-1, Nieuport 28, Sopwith Camel, Fokker D-VII and D-VIII (which of course is a monoplane). The article did address the yaw stability differences between the "full flying" tails like the Eindecker and DR-1 had vs. the fin/rudder of most all more "modern" planes, but that's a whole other thing. The thick, cantilever wings of the Fokkers was compared to the thin, undercambered wings of the British and French designs and was stated to be a much superior design in both efficiency and strength.

    I wanted to post a picture of the computer image of the pressure fields from the article, but am concerned about copyrights. It makes the concept really clear and speaks a lot for either extreme positive or negative stagger affecting the pressure field less, from the apparent shapes of the field in relation to the wing positions to each other. I e-mailed the magazine with some questions and comments, we'll see if I get "published" in their "Letters" section
    Club Saito #2, WACO Brotherhood #20. What other trouble can I get into?

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    RE: WACO YMF

    Just in case anyone is looking for an excellent engine for their 1/5 YMF, you might check this eBay item out.

    SAITO FA-170R3 THREE CYLINDER RADIAL NIB WITH EXTRAS (#280178070560)
    Harry J
    Waco Brotherhood Lucky #13

  22. #4697
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    RE: WACO YMF

    Bill,

    Thanks for accepting me into the brotherhood and I appreciate the advice on the wheel pants, but I am not sure I understand what you mean by "sectioned a little over 1/4" from the center of the pants". Did you cut some off to make them narrower? Also, do you hav an engine recommendation for my other two 1/6 scale Wacos. I have an old kit-build that I purchase at our club dinner with an old super tigre .61 and have a new Cox Hobbies ARF in the mail. From what I gather on the forum, most think that the .61 is too small. Would a Saito .91 fit in the cowl.

    Also, I read one of your post about a recommendation for dummy engines where you recommended the Williams Brothers 1/5 scale, but I have a heck of a time finding it on their web page. Thanks again.

    Chris V.
    Chris V, AMA #866637
    WACO Brotherhood #83

  23. #4698

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    RE: WACO YMF

    Scott,
    Yes that was my home brew muffler, I built it out of 3/4 copper tube. I am trying to obtain some information on home built mufflers as I want to make sure this one is letting the engine breath properly. The engine is very quiet with this muffler and I want to make sure I am not creating too much back pressure.
    As for adding an extension on to your stock muffler, my experience has not been good. If I may, I would suggest that you purchase the additional header pipe or extensions to place the stock muffler far enough down to exit the cowl where you want it to. I tried to put an extension on a O.S. 91 and never could keep the muffer from tearing it's self off the engine. The flex pipe and fittings I used on the WACO were from Mac's and they were not too expensive.
    Jim,
    WACO Brotherhood #3, AMA 816592, IMAA 41683,

  24. #4699

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    RE: WACO YMF

    What do you estimate the cost per kit to be?

  25. #4700
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    RE: WACO YMF

    Even though I posed the question about flaps, (keeping in mind that I have yet to fly a WACO) I agree with learning the technigue to bringing these birds in with out flaps. Throttle and elevator control is obviously the ticket. Based on what we all learned in Flight 101: the elevator controls the attitude while the throttle controls the altitude. What Bill had to say about take off caracteristics was exactly this in different words.

    My thought with the flaperons was actually to induce more drag (while creating enough lift) to allow a pilot to come in with a Little more throttle than he might normally use. Emphasis being on a little. What I did not think about enough was stalling the ailerons. That would be more disastrous than a bounce.

    I also think I read in here about having the engine well tuned for near idle RPM settings. Which is real important, because if you do bounce, a couple quick clicks of throttle will smooth out the aircraft and allow you to flair the second touchdown without dropping out of the air. Without a doubt you can not apply so much throttle that you cause her to torque roll. I've done that too.

    Jim, Ken, and whoever else is behind the landing gear (spring) mod. I really like that deal. I hope my memory is long enough to incorporate that on mine when I get there. Scale in apperance and functional.

    Man, I wish this had spell check. Read it at least three times before posting and still missed a few. Hope I fixed the worst.
    Rick, AMA 115812-WACO Brotherhood #75
    To discover something better....You must be willing to try something different


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