WACO YMF
11-03-2008, 12:49 PM
#7326
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: germrb
Patrick, et al.
You asked about "Duties" of the Brotherhood. The first duty is to sign up for a T-shirt. In this day and age an organization T-shirt is the only true proof of its existence; or so it seems. Bill is far too modest to promote crass commercialism, but some of us are less sensitive. Besdies, Christmas is coming. Everybody needs gift ideas.
There are 118 members in the Brotherhood and only about 60 orders. That is not an impressive show of support. Surely, we can all use a great T-shirt.
Send Bill a PM with your order. By the way, be sure and VOTE tomorrow!!
Patrick, et al.
You asked about "Duties" of the Brotherhood. The first duty is to sign up for a T-shirt. In this day and age an organization T-shirt is the only true proof of its existence; or so it seems. Bill is far too modest to promote crass commercialism, but some of us are less sensitive. Besdies, Christmas is coming. Everybody needs gift ideas.
There are 118 members in the Brotherhood and only about 60 orders. That is not an impressive show of support. Surely, we can all use a great T-shirt.
Send Bill a PM with your order. By the way, be sure and VOTE tomorrow!!
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-03-2008, 04:16 PM
#7328
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: germrb
Bill,
Sorry, no politics intended, just civic duty. A lot of people paid dearly for the right.
Bill,
Sorry, no politics intended, just civic duty. A lot of people paid dearly for the right.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-03-2008, 05:07 PM
#7329
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RE: WACO YMF
Bill,
The comment wasn't directed at you. I know better. All 292 pages?
Back to WACO business: I have been flying my AMR 33% (RCS250) and have been really disappointed with the roll rate. It will make a left hand roll, but very slowly. A right hand roll is so slow I have been reluctent to push it all the way through. Question: Is the full size YMF5 aerobatic at all? I have seen several videos of 33% WACOs doing rolls, but they were all left hand. Can I drive the aileron throw up enough to significantly improve the roll rate without getting into adverse yaw problems?
The comment wasn't directed at you. I know better. All 292 pages?
Back to WACO business: I have been flying my AMR 33% (RCS250) and have been really disappointed with the roll rate. It will make a left hand roll, but very slowly. A right hand roll is so slow I have been reluctent to push it all the way through. Question: Is the full size YMF5 aerobatic at all? I have seen several videos of 33% WACOs doing rolls, but they were all left hand. Can I drive the aileron throw up enough to significantly improve the roll rate without getting into adverse yaw problems?
11-03-2008, 05:16 PM
#7330
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: germrb
Bill,
The comment wasn't directed at you. I know better. All 292 pages?
Back to WACO business: I have been flying my AMR 33% (RCS250) and have been really disappointed with the roll rate. It will make a left hand roll, but very slowly. A right hand roll is so slow I have been reluctent to push it all the way through. Question: Is the full size YMF5 aerobatic at all? I have seen several videos of 33% WACOs doing rolls, but they were all left hand. Can I drive the aileron throw up enough to significantly improve the roll rate without getting into adverse yaw problems?
Bill,
The comment wasn't directed at you. I know better. All 292 pages?
Back to WACO business: I have been flying my AMR 33% (RCS250) and have been really disappointed with the roll rate. It will make a left hand roll, but very slowly. A right hand roll is so slow I have been reluctent to push it all the way through. Question: Is the full size YMF5 aerobatic at all? I have seen several videos of 33% WACOs doing rolls, but they were all left hand. Can I drive the aileron throw up enough to significantly improve the roll rate without getting into adverse yaw problems?
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-03-2008, 07:27 PM
#7331
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RE: WACO YMF
Bill,
The recommended starting point from AMR was 1 1/4 up and 3/4 down. That's were I started. After the intitial flights, I went to 1 1/2 up and 1 down, which showed some minor improvement, but not significantly. Also, I originally mixed in about 15% rudder, but didn't care for it. A pilot ought to learn to make coordinated turns, besides it doesn't help roll characteristics unless you wash it all out.
The airplane has an inherent tendency to roll left and I have had to trim in a significant amount of right aileron. I'm wondering if the vertical stab could be out of alignment, but I haven't been able to detect any. Its somethng I need to accurately verify. Wing alignment appears proper and incidence are zero/zero with +2.5 deg on the horizontal stab.
Unfortunately, the weather is moving into the Rockies tonight and our flying field is going to be pretty wet. The flying season maybe pretty well over, so I won't have too many opportunities to run test flights.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
The recommended starting point from AMR was 1 1/4 up and 3/4 down. That's were I started. After the intitial flights, I went to 1 1/2 up and 1 down, which showed some minor improvement, but not significantly. Also, I originally mixed in about 15% rudder, but didn't care for it. A pilot ought to learn to make coordinated turns, besides it doesn't help roll characteristics unless you wash it all out.
The airplane has an inherent tendency to roll left and I have had to trim in a significant amount of right aileron. I'm wondering if the vertical stab could be out of alignment, but I haven't been able to detect any. Its somethng I need to accurately verify. Wing alignment appears proper and incidence are zero/zero with +2.5 deg on the horizontal stab.
Unfortunately, the weather is moving into the Rockies tonight and our flying field is going to be pretty wet. The flying season maybe pretty well over, so I won't have too many opportunities to run test flights.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
11-03-2008, 08:14 PM
#7332
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
Bob,
I use somewhere from 1/3rd to 1/2 as much down as up on the ailerons on mine. Your incidence numbers sound about right. Do you have your engine thrust at zero/zero, or did you add some down and right thrust? I never build in engine offset, but rather fly the plane. I never saw a Waco do a axial roll, so I'm not sure it should be attempted. There is a lot of stagger to try that, but I suppose that there are some that have modified to the point where they will do it. Jimmy Franklin's UPF-7 comes to mind. I have seen models of the modified -7 do axial rolls, but they have grossly enhanced flight surfaces.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
I use somewhere from 1/3rd to 1/2 as much down as up on the ailerons on mine. Your incidence numbers sound about right. Do you have your engine thrust at zero/zero, or did you add some down and right thrust? I never build in engine offset, but rather fly the plane. I never saw a Waco do a axial roll, so I'm not sure it should be attempted. There is a lot of stagger to try that, but I suppose that there are some that have modified to the point where they will do it. Jimmy Franklin's UPF-7 comes to mind. I have seen models of the modified -7 do axial rolls, but they have grossly enhanced flight surfaces.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-03-2008, 10:00 PM
#7333
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RE: WACO YMF
Bill,
Thanks for the insight. My aileron ratio closely follows your practice. I'll keep that in mind. This is the largest model I have flown, so far. I'm working on a 38% Wedell-Williams Model 44 as my winter project. The WACO will be good training. The flight characteristics are much closer to full size performance and that takes some experience. I think I have been expecting too much performance for the aircraft design and size.
It sure is great fun to fly!! Thanks again,
Thanks for the insight. My aileron ratio closely follows your practice. I'll keep that in mind. This is the largest model I have flown, so far. I'm working on a 38% Wedell-Williams Model 44 as my winter project. The WACO will be good training. The flight characteristics are much closer to full size performance and that takes some experience. I think I have been expecting too much performance for the aircraft design and size.
It sure is great fun to fly!! Thanks again,
11-04-2008, 07:14 AM
#7334
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: germrb
.....
Back to WACO business: I have been flying my AMR 33% (RCS250) and have been really disappointed with the roll rate. It will make a left hand roll, but very slowly. A right hand roll is so slow I have been reluctent to push it all the way through. Question: Is the full size YMF5 aerobatic at all? I have seen several videos of 33% WACOs doing rolls, but they were all left hand. Can I drive the aileron throw up enough to significantly improve the roll rate without getting into adverse yaw problems?
.....
Back to WACO business: I have been flying my AMR 33% (RCS250) and have been really disappointed with the roll rate. It will make a left hand roll, but very slowly. A right hand roll is so slow I have been reluctent to push it all the way through. Question: Is the full size YMF5 aerobatic at all? I have seen several videos of 33% WACOs doing rolls, but they were all left hand. Can I drive the aileron throw up enough to significantly improve the roll rate without getting into adverse yaw problems?
I can not tell you a page range to find it, but, WACO JOE, described several maneuvers with the full scale UPF7 for us on this thread. It was great info. Hope you can find it.
Good luck with your ship. I have no experience with anything near that big but it does sound like something is out of whack as far as incidence/alignment is concerned. Maybe pose the same question on WACONUTS thread for advice from someone that has 33% WACO.
11-04-2008, 01:04 PM
#7336
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: RICKSTUBBZ
Bob,
I can not tell you a page range to find it, but, WACO JOE, described several maneuvers with the full scale UPF7 for us on this thread. It was great info. Hope you can find it.
...........
ORIGINAL: germrb
.....
Back to WACO business: .....
Question: Is the full size YMF5 aerobatic at all?
.....
Back to WACO business: .....
Question: Is the full size YMF5 aerobatic at all?
I can not tell you a page range to find it, but, WACO JOE, described several maneuvers with the full scale UPF7 for us on this thread. It was great info. Hope you can find it.
...........
I found the post of Joes fullscale flight descriptions:
Landing - pg 229 post 5710
Rolls - pg 239 post 5954
John (skylarkmk1) would it be appropriate to list those on the index page???
Bill I sent another PM, thanks
11-04-2008, 01:46 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
Rick,
Thanks for the reference. I went back and read the postings and found them very helpful. Flying a 33% is much closer to full scale then one would expect. There are some brothers who are working on 40% projects and will need to understand some of this data when they get ready to fly.
Joe's comments about rudder offset may help me solve the left roll tendency. I am going to go back and double check my vertical stab alignment, but I'm pretty sure that there isn't any offset, which may explain why I have to use aileron to maintain level flight. My RCS250 swings a 32/12 prop, which probably produces a significant P-factor. There is a couple of degrees of right thrust offset in the engine firewall and there doesn't seem to be any significant tendency to pitch left when I pull up the nose. So, I'm not sure how P-factor would disturb level flight. I'm sure I don't truely understand all of the physics correctly. But, I'm convienced that the plane is not set up properly. I've only got about 10 flights under my belt, so I shouldn't be surprised.
Thanks again for the help. I'll go look for Anthony's thread to see if he has anymore insight.
Thanks for the reference. I went back and read the postings and found them very helpful. Flying a 33% is much closer to full scale then one would expect. There are some brothers who are working on 40% projects and will need to understand some of this data when they get ready to fly.
Joe's comments about rudder offset may help me solve the left roll tendency. I am going to go back and double check my vertical stab alignment, but I'm pretty sure that there isn't any offset, which may explain why I have to use aileron to maintain level flight. My RCS250 swings a 32/12 prop, which probably produces a significant P-factor. There is a couple of degrees of right thrust offset in the engine firewall and there doesn't seem to be any significant tendency to pitch left when I pull up the nose. So, I'm not sure how P-factor would disturb level flight. I'm sure I don't truely understand all of the physics correctly. But, I'm convienced that the plane is not set up properly. I've only got about 10 flights under my belt, so I shouldn't be surprised.
Thanks again for the help. I'll go look for Anthony's thread to see if he has anymore insight.
11-04-2008, 07:04 PM
#7338
RE: WACO YMF
Bob,
I have yet to fly an R/C Waco, I have my 25% ready for spring and I plan on having my 33% ready as well.
I have taken 2 flights in a full scale Stearman and I was a little surprised on how much rudder was input in a turn. The instructor would cram the left pedal and once the plane started to crab he then added aileron and elevator at the same time to bank the turn. He said the Stearman needs rudder applied 1st to make the banked turn correctly, it looked good to me from the front seat
.
After reading some flight reports on the AMR 33% Waco I am going to add 1 deg of down thrust and the recommended right thrust. I always set my planes up for maximum throw that I can get in the surface, that is the way I have always flown my planes and I am used to it. I have had a couple of guys try to fly my planes and they are way too sensitive to them. I will set the low rates to the recommended throws but the high rates are always all I can get.
As big as the 33% is I expect the roll rate to be very slow and graceful and I don't think an axial roll would look right. I did see Jimmy Franklin perform at Dayton about 6 or 7 years ago in his UPF-7 and he put on an awesome show. I just kept looking at that plane going vertical 3 to 4,000 feet on the turbine and shaking my head, major brain disconnect seeing a bipe and hearing a turbine screaming
. It's a shame that the whole group of guys that used to fly in that group are no longer with us. Jimmy Franklin was killed in a mid-air collision during a show (can't remember the other guy) and Jim LeRoy was killed in a crash at the Dayton Airshow in 2007.
Later!!
Anthony
I have yet to fly an R/C Waco, I have my 25% ready for spring and I plan on having my 33% ready as well.
I have taken 2 flights in a full scale Stearman and I was a little surprised on how much rudder was input in a turn. The instructor would cram the left pedal and once the plane started to crab he then added aileron and elevator at the same time to bank the turn. He said the Stearman needs rudder applied 1st to make the banked turn correctly, it looked good to me from the front seat
. After reading some flight reports on the AMR 33% Waco I am going to add 1 deg of down thrust and the recommended right thrust. I always set my planes up for maximum throw that I can get in the surface, that is the way I have always flown my planes and I am used to it. I have had a couple of guys try to fly my planes and they are way too sensitive to them. I will set the low rates to the recommended throws but the high rates are always all I can get.
As big as the 33% is I expect the roll rate to be very slow and graceful and I don't think an axial roll would look right. I did see Jimmy Franklin perform at Dayton about 6 or 7 years ago in his UPF-7 and he put on an awesome show. I just kept looking at that plane going vertical 3 to 4,000 feet on the turbine and shaking my head, major brain disconnect seeing a bipe and hearing a turbine screaming
. It's a shame that the whole group of guys that used to fly in that group are no longer with us. Jimmy Franklin was killed in a mid-air collision during a show (can't remember the other guy) and Jim LeRoy was killed in a crash at the Dayton Airshow in 2007.Later!!
Anthony
11-05-2008, 04:21 AM
#7340
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1
Rick,
I am going thru the last 2000+ posts to update the index. Yes, Waco Joes description of full size flight manuvers will be included.
Rick,
I am going thru the last 2000+ posts to update the index. Yes, Waco Joes description of full size flight manuvers will be included.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-05-2008, 08:42 AM
#7342
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
Rick,
Did you get your e-mails?
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
Rick,
Did you get your e-mails?
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
I enjoyed the read.
Thanks again....
11-05-2008, 02:28 PM
#7344
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
I have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
I have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-05-2008, 07:03 PM
#7345
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: RICKSTUBBZ
I removed the babbling, and confusing clutter.
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
I have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
I have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-06-2008, 08:27 AM
#7346
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RE: WACO YMF
Hello everyone. My name is Tim and I am a builder and flyer. The stable here includes three Wacos including a 1/3 GenesisDA150, 90" Joe Pepino plansGT-80 RCI modified, and a 1/5 PicaOS 160 twin. I would like to join the brotherhood and participate in this great thread. Wacos Forever.
11-06-2008, 10:33 AM
#7347
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
NEW BROTHER ALERT !!!
Brothers, Meet 3drc tim. Tim is now Waco Brother # 119.
Tim, have fun with the program and enjoy.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
Brothers, Meet 3drc tim. Tim is now Waco Brother # 119.
Tim, have fun with the program and enjoy.
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
11-06-2008, 11:08 AM
#7348
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RE: WACO YMF
Anyone have a few extra dollars that they want to spend??? Here's the real deal for sale!!! What a beauty. Great pics for scale reference though.
[link=http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Vehicles-Trailers_Aircraft__Waco-YMF-5-Radial-Engine-Bi-Plane-Own-the-Dream_W0QQitemZ170276299303QQddnZOtherQ20VehiclesQ 20Q26Q20TrailersQQadiZ2829QQddiZ2828QQadnZAircraft QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Aircraft?hash=item170276 299303&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318]Full Scale Waco auction[/link]
[link=http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Vehicles-Trailers_Aircraft__Waco-YMF-5-Radial-Engine-Bi-Plane-Own-the-Dream_W0QQitemZ170276299303QQddnZOtherQ20VehiclesQ 20Q26Q20TrailersQQadiZ2829QQddiZ2828QQadnZAircraft QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Aircraft?hash=item170276 299303&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318]Full Scale Waco auction[/link]
11-06-2008, 02:52 PM
#7349
Thread Starter
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: deckerv
Anyone have a few extra dollars that they want to spend??? Here's the real deal for sale!!! What a beauty. Great pics for scale reference though.
[link=http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Vehicles-Trailers_Aircraft__Waco-YMF-5-Radial-Engine-Bi-Plane-Own-the-Dream_W0QQitemZ170276299303QQddnZOtherQ20VehiclesQ 20Q26Q20TrailersQQadiZ2829QQddiZ2828QQadnZAircraft QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Aircraft?hash=item170276 299303&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318]Full Scale Waco auction[/link]
Anyone have a few extra dollars that they want to spend??? Here's the real deal for sale!!! What a beauty. Great pics for scale reference though.
[link=http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Vehicles-Trailers_Aircraft__Waco-YMF-5-Radial-Engine-Bi-Plane-Own-the-Dream_W0QQitemZ170276299303QQddnZOtherQ20VehiclesQ 20Q26Q20TrailersQQadiZ2829QQddiZ2828QQadnZAircraft QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Aircraft?hash=item170276 299303&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318]Full Scale Waco auction[/link]
]
Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1