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WACO YMF

Old 01-18-2013, 04:54 AM
  #15951
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Jaybird

Soory, sorry, sorry! It was meant as a joke as it is another subject that gets everyone worked up.

I worked on adding the javelins to the new flying wires on my GP WACO last evening and should have it finished tonight.

Jaybird
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:22 AM
  #15952
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ORIGINAL: RCplanman

jaybird,What is the incidence of your bottom wing.?

Bill
On my ARF GP WACO I don't know what the design incidence is supposed to be relative to some datum line, but if I block it up so that my Robart incidence meter reads "0" on the lower wing, the stab reads +2 1/2 and top wing -1 degree. This is similar to the Concept 1/6 scale Fleet that I bought and the Great Planes Super Skybolt kit that I built from a box. Interesting point though is all three fly well with a fair amount of "up trim". If the elevators are adjusted so they are in-line with the horizontal stab, the planes want to nose over as the power is brought up on take off and they will dive in the air. With the up trim left in, they fly level hands off. This is what confuses me about the model design as it would seem the +2 1/2 incidence isn't required if you then have to counter it with up elevator trim. All that does is produce aerodynamic drag. I'd welcome an explanation on this point.

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Old 01-18-2013, 06:47 AM
  #15953
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Does it fly level with no up elevator trim and your at a fast idle? The reason I ask is this, if it does not dive on a low power setting and does power on then you might want to change your thrust line to include some positive thrust.

Bob
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:13 AM
  #15954
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On the symetrical airfoil, I understand needing it for inverted flight to keep the AOA down. It also would have helped the new RC pilot that put his trainer wing on upside down. But what's the penalty in lift as compared to a 'standard' wing? Seems like it could be significant requiring more power?

Mike Hopkins
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:13 AM
  #15955
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If I take the trim out in flight the nose will pitch down and it will descend regardless of power setting.

All three planes behave the same way. I believe they are properly balanced and built per plans as well.

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Old 01-18-2013, 07:56 AM
  #15956
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On my ARF GP WACO I don't know what the design incidence is supposed to be relative to some datum line, but if I block it up so that my Robart incidence meter reads "0" on the lower wing. At this point what exactly is the FCL incidence and the engine TL incidence while we are at it? Keep in mind that I only ask because it is sounding like the horizontal has too much positive AOI. and your counter trimming.

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Old 01-18-2013, 08:48 AM
  #15957
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Default RE: WACO YMF

In the blocked up position the engine thrust line is also 0 when the bottom wing is 0 incidence.

Not sure what "FCL" refers to, sorry.

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Old 01-18-2013, 08:50 AM
  #15958
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Stickbuilder,
I recently bought a Byron FPN7 Waco. The price range you quoted was in line with what the previous owner was asking,

and the incidence +2 Top Wing, 0 Bottom Wing , and +2 Stab was also in the same general area. i hope these planes catch the eye

of modelers since they are in my opinion great looking and supposedly very good flyers.

Dan
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:52 AM
  #15959
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For anyone with the PICA or GP WACO, I'd like to add "dummy" aileron pushrods (all four are servo driven on the GP WACO) but I'm not sure how to do it. I plan to make the pushrods telescoping so that they don't work againt the servos, but I can't come up with a good way to attach them to the ailerons. Just wondering if the PICA kit spelled out a way or if anyone else has tried this on the GP WACO ARF. I've looked at the other kit assemblies but I'm not sure how to transfer that to the already built and covered ailerons. Maybe this would be a good chance to recover them with a corrugated surface?

Jaybird
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:03 AM
  #15960
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Jaybird

In the blocked up position the engine thrust line is also 0 when the bottom wing is 0 incidence.

Not sure what ''FCL'' refers to, sorry.

Jaybird
It stands for Fuselage Center Line. It comes into play when we are talking about the AOI between the wing and stab. What is the fuse doing?

Bob
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:19 AM
  #15961
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That's just it. The ARF doesn't provide any of that centerline or datum line information for anyone to verify where anything is. The instructions don't even mention checking any of the incidences as they are already designed in and set with the completed assemblies. If there was a set of plans then you could see what internal structure is the centerline. The only thing I can do is block it up and choose a surface (in this case the lower wing) as a starting point.

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Old 01-18-2013, 09:48 AM
  #15962
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Jaybird

That's just it. The ARF doesn't provide any of that centerline or datum line information for anyone to verify where anything is. The instructions don't even mention checking any of the incidences as they are already designed in and set with the completed assemblies. If there was a set of plans then you could see what internal structure is the centerline. The only thing I can do is block it up and choose a surface (in this case the lower wing) as a starting point.

Jaybird
You will need to create a longitudinal center line of your own using the firewall/motor mount that we already established as being set to 0 with the AOI of the wing. You can use a Sharpy to make tick marks on the fuse sides, and don't worry acetone washes off the Sharpy marks without any damage to the Monokote. Once that is complete you can block airplane up so your bottom wing is back to 0, use a protractor on the line you created and see what the FCL is doing, neutral, high, or low.

Bob
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:07 AM
  #15963
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Sounds good. I'll check that out once I'm done with the detail work I'm doing at the moment. Since the plane flies fine I'm not in a big hurry to get all my measuring equipment out again. I was just curious as to why so much positive incidence is designed into the horizontal stab.

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Old 01-18-2013, 10:57 AM
  #15964
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With everything you have said so far, it really does sound like an AOI thing, but then again it could be one of the tradeoff things at the designer level, anyway, from the pictures it sure is pretty.

Bob
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:46 AM
  #15965
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Jaybird

For anyone with the PICA or GP WACO, I'd like to add ''dummy'' aileron pushrods (all four are servo driven on the GP WACO) but I'm not sure how to do it. I plan to make the pushrods telescoping so that they don't work againt the servos, but I can't come up with a good way to attach them to the ailerons. Just wondering if the PICA kit spelled out a way or if anyone else has tried this on the GP WACO ARF. I've looked at the other kit assemblies but I'm not sure how to transfer that to the already built and covered ailerons. Maybe this would be a good chance to recover them with a corrugated surface?

Jaybird

On my 40%,I made mine from telescoping carbon tubes. The brackets are made from part of a "butterfly nut" that is used to fasten stuff to your walls in the house. Seeing as they are not under any particular load, I drilled the mounting holes in the aileron and soaked the holes with thin CA. Quite a few flights now and no signs of any loosening up.

Cheers,
Dave.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:00 PM
  #15966
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Wow! Great looking surface and fasteners on the aileron. The ailerons on the smaller GP WACO are mostly open structure with film covering so there isn't any wood to drill through in that area. I suppose I could slice through the covering on the bottom and insert some material to mount to and then close it back in again.

Thanks for the information.

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Old 01-18-2013, 06:11 PM
  #15967
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On my Pepino 1/4 scale Waco, I went with two servos for ailerons. Why does the GP need four?? Pretty easy to link the second aileron. Or am I missing something??

Mike Hopkins
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:47 PM
  #15968
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Default RE: WACO YMF


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Jaybird

For anyone with the PICA or GP WACO, I'd like to add ''dummy'' aileron pushrods (all four are servo driven on the GP WACO) but I'm not sure how to do it. I plan to make the pushrods telescoping so that they don't work againt the servos, but I can't come up with a good way to attach them to the ailerons. Just wondering if the PICA kit spelled out a way or if anyone else has tried this on the GP WACO ARF. I've looked at the other kit assemblies but I'm not sure how to transfer that to the already built and covered ailerons. Maybe this would be a good chance to recover them with a corrugated surface?

Jaybird
Well I refused to use 4 servos in my waco especially the way you have to use all the extentions to hook everything up so here is a few pics to show you what I did, it might not look pretty at the moment but once my roll of monocote shows up you'll never see it. They do work I used 1/2 aluminum angle iron 1/16 thickness, 2-56 steel clevis with a 12' rod and a standard solder clevis. I am going to use a piece of brass tubing to give it some thickness.

Here are the pics:
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:18 PM
  #15969
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Very straightforward, I like it. Did you add anything to the inside of the aileron or just bolt through it? Thanks for sharing.

As to using four servos I guess it was a design decision by Great Planes to use them instead of connecting rods from the lower to the upper. I find it fairly easy to assemble at the field where I plug in the two bottom serovos as I install the lower wing and the upper wing panels plug in at the center section. My Great Planes Super Skybolt has two servos in the lower wing only and connecting rods to drive the upper ailerons. The Midwest Super Stearman does as well. Again, a design choice by someone along the way. The 1/4 scale Cermark Pitts S2B has four separate servos like the WACO, but that's a pretty large biplane and also doesn't come with aileron connectiong rods.

Thanks for the great ideas.

Jaybird
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:00 PM
  #15970
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I just bolted straight through the aileron, but one I have everything done the way I want it I am going to cut just enough of the monocote so I can mount it directly to the wood and shorten the screw length a little, and then once done wrap a small piece of monocote around everything to hide it.

I figure I am about 70% complete on the assembly process just ain't in a big hurry to finish it since here in up state New York we have snow on the ground and its just a we bit to cold to fly.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:10 PM
  #15971
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: hopkimf

On my Pepino 1/4 scale Waco, I went with two servos for ailerons. Why does the GP need four?? Pretty easy to link the second aileron. Or am I missing something??

Mike Hopkins
Nope not missing anything it's just for some reason Great Planes thought that is was a good idea to setup both wings with servos and it doesn't come with any control rod to use between the ailerons. I think it is a waste if two servos.
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:18 AM
  #15972
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rcboatomatic, Dave what I've done is sandwitch the rod between2 pc.''s of maybe 3/32 balsa & then sand that to a airfoil shape. Out at that thin edge you could also put a small piece of 64th ply top & bottom and then cover that w/ your covering would make it pretty strong. A thought.

Bill
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Old 01-19-2013, 02:40 PM
  #15973
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Finished up mounting the javelins to the flying wires and made up some telescoping aileron connecting rods today...great fun! I used some piano wire, brass tubing, aluminum airstream tubing, brass threaded solder ends and metal clevises to make the pushrods. The horns are cut down nylon horns that were heated up and bent to the correct angles for both sides. The top clevis is on a section of rod riding inside a brass tubing sleeve with a short section soldered to the end to act as a stop. Once mounted in the aluminum it can slide freely about an inch but is trapped and won't fall out. I have left them the bare aluminum at this point as it's quite cold in the house and even colder outside so spray painting will have to wait until spring. It took a bit of fiddling to get the first one to slide smoothly but the second one was a piece of cake.

While I had it all together I took the opportunity to weigh it...it comes in around 13 lbs best I can tell with bathroom scales.

Now I can take the wings back off and start on the center section fuel tank detail and then the dummy engine. The flying wires are anchored to the fuselage and clip to brackets on the wings for quick assembly.

Good day to be inside!

Jaybird
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:29 PM
  #15974
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Default RE: WACO YMF


Quote:
ORIGINAL: CAPT. DAN

Stickbuilder,
I recently bought a Byron FPN7 Waco. The price range you quoted was in line with what the previous owner was asking,

and the incidence +2 Top Wing, 0 Bottom Wing , and +2 Stab was also in the same general area. i hope these planes catch the eye

of modelers since they are in my opinion great looking and supposedly very good flyers.

Dan
I'd expect a little difficulty in your landings with that incidence set-up. Why positive incidence on the upper wing? That will make it stall first.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:07 PM
  #15975
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Hmmmm,
Nobody doing anything with their Waco's? I will start covering the 1/3 again this weekend.
Later!!
Anthony
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