RE: WACO YMF
 

Jim, The trailing edge of the horizontal stab has to miss the tailpost in order to allow room for the elevator joiner dowell. I used a few scraps to fair in the area, and it really makes the after end of this WACO look right. Sorry about your luck, but better to find it out now, than after you had expended hours of time only to need to tear it all out.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: WACO YMF
 

Bill,
Well I have the vertical and horizontal stab off and now I need to cut new pieces to replace those I damaged. I agree, I'd much rather do this now than after the covering was on. It also gives me an opportunity to check everything with the incidence meter just in case there are other issues.
Have you decided on the trim for your wife's new Waco or are you still working that out?
Jim

RE: WACO YMF
 

Decisions have been made, and the color choice is finalized. I am working on various sketches to nail down the final version. Remember who is to be the pilot, and that the scheme is to be based around that. There will be lettering on the fuselage to promote flying. It should be different. The leading edges of the wings and tail surfaces must remain pure WACO though. There is no getting around that one. Last evening, I hung it from the ceiling in the Florida room. It's BIG! We have Grandkids coming down from Nashville this weekend, so up there is the safest place for it. They've got Disney on their minds.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: WACO YMF
 

Bill,
I know you are running a 1.60 twin and I think h-500 is running a 1.70 radial. I was hoping to utilize the beam mount that has already been built into the fuse. So, what do you think I need for power? I know a 1.20 FX will fit the mount, or possibly a 1.60 two stroke.
Any suggestions? I know the four stroke definitely will sound better but not sure if I can locate (afford) one that will be large enough.
Thanks
Jim

RE: WACO YMF
 

Jim, I think that either the FX 120 or the 106 2 stroke will be grossly overpower this model. I did one of these once with the Moki 1.8, and it was AWESOME !!! I think that a better choice for you if you wish to fly within the scale envelope is the O.S. 120 4 stroke. This engine is plenty powerful for this airframe. The 160 twin just sounds better. In actuality, it is probably no more powerful than the 120 4 stroke. It is not a, "Barn Burner". Like I said, it just looks and sounds neat.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: WACO YMF
 

Bill,
Thanks for the advice, I have a 1.20 4 stroke on a Great Planes, Super Stearman (ARF), which is very scale like in flight. At times though, I get concerned that it may be slightly under powered, since the Waco is a little larger than the Stearman, I want to be sure that I have enough horse power to stay out of trouble.
Guess I need to start looking for another OS 1.20 4 stroke!
Thanks again for the advise, I really appreciate the help !
Jim

RE: WACO YMF
 

Since your question was directed at Bill, I waited. I would recommend the new Saito 125 ;)

I had a newer Enya 120 4 stroke in my hand today (150.00) if I did not already own the 170 3cylinder, I would have bought it. It still took a lot to not buy it. This self control is highly over rated !

RE: WACO YMF
 

Thanks, and please jump in anytime. I am open to any suggestions from folks that have more expeience than I do. If you, Bill and I had not had these discussions my Waco could have turned into a disaster.
I have read some good things about the Satio 125, and the guys here that the fly the Satio only have good things to say about them. All my engines are O.S. Except for the Fox .60 that I have on my Astro-Hog but I am not adverse to trying a different engiine.
Again, I welcome any suggestions or advice as I have not been doing this very long and I know there are lots of things I have to learn.
Thanks for all your help.

BTW I got the headrest off with out too much damage and got the parts cut out from the templates you sent.
I ordered an incidence meter last night and it should be here in a few days. Maybe now I can start going forward again instead of backward..
Jim

RE: WACO YMF
 

Jim,

As long as you are making progress, backward or forward does not matter. :D I have no experience with the Saito (I have only owned one) and I found it to be a little more cranky than was the equivelant O.S. It's personal preference. I know several guys that swear by the Saito, and a few who do not like the O.S. (the old Chevy/Ford thing). Keep us posted on your progress. I think that if others would try these kits rather than attempting to turn them into a hoarding thing and keeping them in the box, more folks would find what a wonderful flying model that they have. It just requires a little more attiention than does the average kit. I am doing some scaling up for my next one, and am in the middle of making decisions on dimensional choices for the wood. Scaling up to 25% does not make for available selections. Sticks need to be available from the cutters in the sizes needed. Some will be the next size up, and others will be the next size down. Stringers, for example do not need to be 19/64" .

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: WACO YMF
 

Bill, and H-500,
Well I am just about back where I started. I have the stringers replaced and the F-14 and F-15 glued back ready to start reworking the stab. I located the original F-28 pieces in the kit but I'm not sure how to fit them around the F-15. Obviously they are going to need a little water to make them plyable --Manually Fix-- playable ply able ply-able payable pliable flyable palpable enough to bend around F-13. The other question I have is where do the push rods exit? The plan has them exiting through F-28 but I can not figure out how unless I have to drill holes in the rear formers and the plate that the crutch attaches to to form the rear of the fuse. I had planed to use carbon fiber push rods with metal ends and clevis, so again I am looking for suggestions from folks who have done this before.
Thanks
Jim

RE: WACO YMF
 

Jim,

I did not use push rods for the rudder. I used pull-pull there, with guide tubes through the formers where they interferred. To align the elevator pushrod, you need to buy(make) a long drill bit that will allow you to align the exit (at the desired location) and go through the required formers. You can cut a burr on a piece of brass tubing and this works well. Or you can go to the local machine tool store and buy an 18" drill bit in the size that matches the outer sleeve of the pushrod tube that you wish to use.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: WACO YMF
 

I plan on running pull pull myself as well on the Rudder and CF for the Elevator. I'll be running a Y off the CF, one to each elevator half.
I found it interesting that there is not a clear path to do this as well.

About to start on the wings myself, big job [sm=drowning.gif]

RE: WACO YMF
 

Please excuse me butting in, I have been looking over the shoulders of my betters for some time and just found something I don't understand.

Pull pull I understand but what is meant by running a Y off the CF?

By the way when drilling with a toothed tube, "run out" can be avoided by using a mandrel that fits inside the tube. With a point on the mandrel it's easy to make a start by hand before spinning the tube with a drill. With a long taper on the point it's also easy to start at an angle to the surface when required.




old git - - - - - aka John L.

RE: WACO YMF
 

John,
Thank you for your tip on cutting holes with a tube. The mandrel sounds like a good way to get the hole where it is supposed to be, not where the brass decides to start cutting. CF = Carbon Fiber H-500 will use music wire ( I presume) soldered in the shape of a Y attached to a carbon fiber push rod. I have used similar set ups on a couple of ARF's that I have and on the Astro-Hog I built last year.
From what I am hearing from Bill and H-500 I suspect I need to be looking into a pull-pull setup for the rudder and some type of flexible
control rod ( like some of the Sullivan products) for the elevator.
By the way. Jump in anytime.
Jim

RE: WACO YMF
 

Jim, John and all,

I have even gone to the trouble to do pull-pull on the elevators in the past. I did not see any improvement in the control when doing this, and so I have reverted to the Sullivan control rod for the elevator. The pull-pull setup on the elevator was good for the wow factor, but was a Royal pain in the Butt to set up. I used a bellcrank with the servo driving through a single pushrod for actuation. It was not that difficult, just another one of those things that can go wrong (and usually does). I may even do it again at some point on one of the larger versions, along with using pull-pull on the ailerons. That is easier than it sounds. If you ever see a photo of the Corben Super Ace, you can see an engineering nightmare. Everything is pull-pull, and even the tailwheel has a double drive with half bellcranks and tie rods from the rudder to the tailwheel. Everything was mirror image in order for the system to work. Never again. I have dug up a photo of that model, and even though the pic does not show everything, trust me, it's there. Even the Brass radiator is/can be functional. By the way this plane was finished well over 10 years ago. It is still in wonderful condition, and is a regular flyer.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: WACO YMF
 

Bill -- I seemed to have missed this thread i'll be following your progress (and others) here from now on!

I am ramping up finishing my kit up (which had already been partially built by someone else) and I have a couple of questions:

- What servos are you using or would you recommend? I am using seperate servos for the ailerons BTW. I noticed for the 'arf' they recommend "HD" servos.

- Do you happen to have the radial mount spacing for the FT-160 your using? The guy who built the one I have seemed to have some kind of radial mount in mind because he's beefed up the firewall w/ Ply but his holes look to be drilled/t-bolted for something smaller.

I'm still leaning to using the Saito FA-125 four stroke but am concerned about needing extra weight to balance- this said the firewall on mine has so much hardwood and ply put in by the previous building it's almost like he was putting a g26 in there.. so maybe the 125 + battery in front of the firewall would do the trick. However, if the firewall will acommodate the twin i may go that route.

-Tom

RE: WACO YMF
 

Tom,

Welcome in. As to the question of the servos that I use, let me say that I use JR TX and RX, but I use only HiTec servos. For the throttle I use the standard 425 (the cheap one) for the ailerons and elevator I use the 635, and for the rudder the 645. Why do I use these instead of the JR servos? I started out using HiTec servos and have never had a failure. EVER! I have seen the other brands fail (more than once).

As to the radial mount spacing for the OS 160: You would be better served to look in the engine forum under direct support for OS, or simply visit www.osengines.com and download the user's manual. there are pages dedicated to the hole centers and overall dimensions of the engine. I have the manual, and can look it up for you in you can't find it. I set my firewall up the time honored way. I installed the cowl, and set the engine on the firewall (fuselage vertical) and centered the engine in the cowl, marked the holes and went at it with the drill press. I don't reccomend using T-nuts for the engine mount. The metal is soft and can easily strip out, leaving you with a mess. I use fender washers, 6-32 carbon steel bolts (the black ones) lock washers and lock nuts. They don't fail, but are more trouble to install. I never use Stainless steel fastners. they can be unreliable.

Look back through the thread, and you will see some pictures of the OS 160 twin in the cowl of my WACO. The only holes in the cowl are for the exhaust exits, and for the needle valve extension. I could have eliminated that one, but I'd rather make running adjustments than shut down and try it again. The engine clears the cowl by a fair margin (using the stock ABS cowl that comes in the kit), and you don't have to butcher the cowl. For exhaust extensions, I use plumbing supply line (from Lowes) thay are copper that has been chrome plated, and can be purchased in several lengths. Keep cooking through the pile until you get one that has to be forced over the standard exhaust header. They can be easily bent to the desired shape (by hand) and they look very nice coming out of the cowl, I made a couple of brass vent/dumps that you can see on the lower front of the fuse. I use these for the fuel tank vent, and the crankcase oil dump.

As I said, welcome in, and jump in anytime. No one owns this thread, we all share in here.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

ps The brotherhood is open, there are no dues or even any rules. All that is required is the love of this plane. Pick a number and jump in.

Bill

RE: WACO YMF
 

Thanks Bill, I have already downloaded the manual and looked at the engine specs on the osengines page but they only give dimensions for the hole centers for the engine block itself, not the "rotary motor mount" (the seperate peice of hardware). I'll go and look in the engine forum and see if there is a source of the info. I really just need a rough idea of the centers to determine if the way the other builder did the firewall mount on mine will work with the 160 mount plate centers, if i decide to go with the twin i can use the plate as a template for the actual holes..

Tom

RE: WACO YMF
 

Welcome Tom, good to see so much interest in the Waco.

You nailed it Jim, even though there is a mechanical connection linking the two elevator halves, I will run a 4-40 rod to each half.
I'll cut a Carbon fibre arrow and use it, then drill holes through the formers and support it about 2/3rds back through a 1.5"x1.5"x 2" balsa block.
Something like this:

RE: WACO YMF
 

I will sent the dimensions tonight.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: WACO YMF
 

Tom,

As promised, here are the dimensions for the OS 106 twin radial mounts. The hole centers (side to side) are 2 3/4". Top to bottom are 3 1/8". The OS manual gives these dimensions in metric form.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: WACO YMF
 

Dang,

I can't spell worth spit this morning. I typed 106, and it should have been OS 160. [:@] Sorry bout that.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: WACO YMF
 

To all,
Well the incidence meter came a couple of days ago, so last night I got F-15 shimmed and sanded to place the stab at +2 degrees incidence. Next hurdle will be to get the push rods for the elevator routed without having them in a bind. Think I will follow H-500 tip and use a push rod for each half of the elevator. Still struggling with my choice of power, as I think this one is going to be on the heavy side. Bill,do you remember what prop you were running on the WACO that you had the O.S. 120 in? Also from the photos of your and H-500 fuselage, did you have the stab held down with screws as you were framing up the airplane? What did you do for temporary attachment of the vertical stab? I realize these are basic questions but this is not the usual kit either.
Thanks in advance
Jim

RE: WACO YMF
 

Jim,

I think that I was using a 16X6 wide blade with the OS 120. As to the temporary holding of the horizontal and vertical stab; I used 2 pieces of dowell and drilled the vertical stab, the horizontal stab, and the stab mounting plate to match. It is a simple matter to get everything square that way. After I was ready to finalize the glue joint, I used epoxy to fit the dowell into the vertical stab, and applied the epoxy to all the parts, and skewered it all together using the dowells. It is a strong (very strong) joint, and it is square.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: WACO YMF
 

I made a dato cut in my horizontal stabilizer for the vertical to fit into. I used 1/8 dowel into the vertical that pressed through the horizontal and into the fuse. I also increased the surface area of the bottom of the horizontal before epoxying it all to the fuse!

I did mine twice [sm=bananahead.gif]