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How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

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Old 07-21-2009, 10:29 PM
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SLAYERDUDE
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Default How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

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Here is a shimming walkthru I made on AE forums.
http://www.aeforums.co.uk/forum/inde...showtopic=5659


People here seem to like it.
I have posted the link here at RCU a couple times and have gotten very good feedback on it.
In hopes of helping more people with pinion (bevel) gear breakage I decided to start this thread.
This should apply to any Savage diff, not just the XL. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)

Also if you have the 2 spider gear setup you should install this while you are in there- http://www.hpiracing.com/products/en/87193/

If you have the plastic diff I would get one of these as well-
http://www.hpiracing.com/products/en/86827/

I forgot to give the PN# for the shims.
Big thanks to Cummins Driver for noting that to me!
I got the XL new and it came with shims in a bag.
Z892 is the HPI PN# for the diff shims.
So if you got it used or didn't come with the shims there is the PN# and a link.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?FVSEARCH=z892



I hope many of you can benifit from this.
I am a newer member and already have seen many posts about breaking diff gears.
After breaking 2 myself I shimmed one and had no more problems.
So when I did the second diff I took pics and wrote this up.

ENJOY


SLAYER


Old 07-21-2009, 11:00 PM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

this should be helpful for some thanks for posting it....
Old 07-22-2009, 12:53 AM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

ThunderbirdJunkie would recommend this be stickied, however...his own stickied thread gets regularly ignored, so it may be best to just bump this daily.

Awesome writeup!
Old 07-22-2009, 01:19 AM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

LMAO
Thanks guys.[8D]

Slayer thinks he enjoys reading ThunderbirdJunkies posts more than others.
This predates the reading of ThunderbirdJunkie's last post.

SLAYER
Old 07-22-2009, 10:56 PM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

I also shim the pinion gear. Take the skid plate clear off. That way you can see if the pinon gear is running down the middle of the ring gear. I ended up putting 2 shims on the pinion gear to make it run down the middle of the ring gear.

I also keep adding shims to the diff cup until it feels notchy when assembled. Then I take 1 off and it is perfict. I usually end up having 3 on ring gear side and 1 on the diff cup side.

josh
Old 07-23-2009, 11:49 AM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!


ORIGINAL: jbooker82

I also shim the pinion gear. Take the skid plate clear off. That way you can see if the pinon gear is running down the middle of the ring gear. I ended up putting 2 shims on the pinion gear to make it run down the middle of the ring gear.

I also keep adding shims to the diff cup until it feels notchy when assembled. Then I take 1 off and it is perfict. I usually end up having 3 on ring gear side and 1 on the diff cup side.

josh
Good call on shimming the pinion first.
(You would want to shim the pinion before doing the side shims if you are doing the pinion.)
It would be done best by doing that.
On a 1/1 diff there is a pinion depth measurement that you adjust the exact same way as this diff.
Shims behind the pinion gear.

My XL did not come with pinion shims, only the #Z892 side shims so I used what I had.
But HPI sent me a warranty diff to replace the broken pinion and that kit came with pinion shims as well as the side shims.
In the exploded view they don't even show any pinion shims or a PN for the pinion shims.
Just 86922b goes into B085.

Thanks jbooker.

SLAYER
Old 07-23-2009, 11:00 PM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

yea that is no problem just trying to help the savage guys out. If you take the skid plate clear off then you can see through the aluminum to see if the pinoin is running down the middle of the gear.
Old 07-24-2009, 09:49 AM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

Do you have a PN# or a link for the pinion shims?


SLAYER
Old 07-29-2009, 05:37 PM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

I dont have a part number. I dont know if they are made for the pinion but they came in my flux ring and pinion kit. I think they are for shimming the ring gear side due to the machined down bearing race. The ring gear side uses the same size bearing as the pinion so I just used some extra shims.
Old 07-31-2009, 09:55 PM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

Here's some specs for the shims.... In english.
.315 I.D. for pinion shim
.400 O.D. for pinion shim
.005 thickness.


.395 I.D. for ring gear shim
.475 O.D. for ring gear shim
.010 thickness

I'm guessing they made the ring gear brg smaller on the flux from what you said???
My ring gear brg's are 10X16X5.

???

I'm confused now.[sm=bananahead.gif]


SLAYER
Old 07-31-2009, 11:23 PM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

They machined down the surface on the ring gear that the bearing rides on. That allows them to use a thicker bearing with larger ball bearings while still having the same outside diameter.
Old 08-05-2009, 02:03 AM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

jbooker82 Date 7/31/2009 11:23 PM
They machined down the surface on the ring gear that the bearing rides on. That allows them to use a thicker bearing with larger ball bearings while still having the same outside diameter.
OK.
So your saying that the ring shims and the pinion shims are the same on the flux?


So anyone know the PN# for the Savage pinion shims?
Old 08-06-2009, 12:49 AM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

Yea they are the same. The ring gear and pinoin use the same bearings as well.
Old 08-16-2009, 01:26 AM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

Anyone find a PN# for the pinion shims yet?

I spec'd them out the best I could but no PN#

Here's some specs for the shims.... In english.
.315 I.D. for pinion shim
.400 O.D. for pinion shim
.005 thickness.


.395 I.D. for ring gear shim
.475 O.D. for ring gear shim
.010 thickness
Old 08-23-2009, 06:01 PM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

Old 08-23-2009, 09:14 PM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

This is a great tutorial for stock diffs, it should be stickied.
Old 08-23-2009, 09:48 PM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

Test for new thread...

Originally Posted by SLAYERDUDE,Jan 15 2009, 10:54 PM
HERE'S HOW I SHIM A DIFFERENTIAL ON A SAVAGE XL

For XFILE
First take off the plastic clips that hold the bumper bars in the bulkhead.
I have a pair of needlenose pliers between the 2 shocks to pull the clips.


Clip removed.


Pull the bumper out of the holes.

Next remove the 2 screws on the bottom that are closest to the bumper.
These screws go into the diff case as well.


Now you can access the front screws in the diff case.
2 above the upper hinge pins.
And 2 below the alum brace that the upper hinge pins go thru.
If you are doing the rear - the turnbuckles need to be removed first.
I have a worn one and just put a washer to hold the plastic end on.
Order some turnbuckle ends. P/N # 85050 - comes with 4 on a tree and a whole bunch of other parts for $6
The turnbuckle ends WILL stretch out after a good crash or cartwheels!!!
This is a weak link and I like it that way.


Here's the turnbuckle ball end with the washer to hold on the worn end (arrow)
And the diff shims that should have come in the parts bags with the truck. (circle)

Diff case screw locations.

Case removed
Red arrows are 4 screws that hold the diff case in. (Besides the 2 on the bottom.) 6 screws total.
Green arrows are the hinge pin holes.


Diff without case half.


To pull the diff out you will need to get the dogbones out.
2 options.

1 Remove more suspention parts to take dogbones out.

2 Wiggle it...just a little bit. Wiggle Instructions
Get the diff pulled out partially and let the suspention hang.
You should be able to push the dogbone into the wheel area just enough to slip the dogbone out of the diff cup.
It's not easy, but it will come out this way.

Diff and dogbones out.



Diff cleaned and Z164 30K heavy diff grease.


Next you need to remove the 4 screws in the back of the 43 tooth ring gear. (bevel gear)
Photo shown is with just 2 screws holding it together just for shimming.

This is best done by holding the diff on the table.
Down flat on the cup so you can push straight down towards the table with the screwdriver.
The screws are loctited in and take some effort to remove.
Be careful not to strip the screws.
I had to push down hard to keep from stripping the heads.

Now remove the spider gears after separating the diff from the ring gear.

Spider gears removed.

Keep them together until you clean and reassemble.

Now you can remove the diff shafts.
There is a pin going thru each of the shafts holding them in the ring, and the other in the cup.
Remove the # 87193 gears from the shafts.
Then remove the pins and the shafts will slide out.
I use needlenose in the diff cup to get the pin out of the shaft and to reinstall.
(No room for man hands in there)


Now I discard the paper gasket and clean the parts.
(I had no replacement gasket, so I just put a thin film of RTV on the cleaned diff cup before final attatchment of the ring gear)
**DISCLAIMER**
Not using the gasket may lose some tolerance, but does not seem to be an issue.


There is a large washer that the retaining pins ride against from the last step.

Washer shown with pin and diff shaft.
(washers will be stuck to the insides with grease you will see them when you clean out the inside of diff)


Keep track of these and all other parts and put the 2 sides apart from each other.
This way they will go back in the same spot and keep the same wear pattern.
(Xfile, yours is new so it shouldn't matter.)

Now put the ring gear onto the empty diff cup and put 2 screws opposite each other and tighten it up..


Next set the empty diff back in the truck and check the play.
Hold the driveshaft under the truck at the pinion on the backside of the diff.
Check the play by holding the pinion still and wiggle (rotate up and down, not side to side) the ring gear to see if there's slop between the gears.
There probably is.
Now take the diff back out and take the bearing off of the ring gear side and install another shim.

Shims located between the bearing and diff. (red arrow)
(More shims on the gear side will bring the ring and pinion closer together.)


There should already be 1 shim from the factory on each side of the diff.
The manual shows on page 32 2 shims on each side, I tried that and it didn't feel right. Also, it doesen't come that way so....
Put the bearing back on.
Now that you have 2 shims on the ring gear side and 1 shim on the other side.
You can put the diff back in and check the play.
It should be minimal, if any.
A hair of play between the gears is okay, too tight and possible binding is not.
On full size diffs there is a "gear lash" spec that you measure with a dial indicator.
All the 1/1 diffs I have worked on had a hair of play. (not tight or no play)
The grease between the gears gives some "cushion" and takes up the minor slack and promotes lubrication between the ring and pinion.
If it's not right, you will have to keep changing the number of shims on each side to get the desired play.

Both my diffs shimmed the same.
2 shims on the ring gear side and 1 shim on the other side.

Don't forget to loctite the 4 screws on the ring gear.

You will need grease to put back in.
So if you don't have any, check the LHS and they should have something.
The Z164 grease is 30,000 weight.
I still use this on the ring and pinion.
I have changed the grease in the diff where the spider gears are sealed in.
What I used is something I had on hand.
Thick automotive clear silicone brake caliper lube.
The thicker the grease or (Agent uses 100K fluid I believe) fluid you use the less "give" there is between the wheels on that axle.

You can use whatever you want to try, but HPI recomends the 30K #Z164.
I AM NO EXPERT AND THIS IS JUST THE WAY I SHIMMED AND REBUILT MY DIFFS.
I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGES, AND IF YOU BLAME ME YOU SHOULD BE WHIPPED WITH A WET NOODLE.

[snapback]35106[/snapback]
Old 08-23-2009, 09:58 PM
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SLAYERDUDE
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

Hey look I'm a retard and I can copy my edit and paste it here.
Turned out just fine.

RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions! - 7/22/2009 12:53 AM


ThunderbirdJunkie
ThunderbirdJunkie would recommend this be stickied, however...his own stickied thread gets regularly ignored, so it may be best to just bump this daily.
Awesome writeup!

SLAYERDUDE
ORIGINAL: jbooker82

I also shim the pinion gear. Take the skid plate clear off. That way you can see if the pinon gear is running down the middle of the ring gear. I ended up putting 2 shims on the pinion gear to make it run down the middle of the ring gear.

I also keep adding shims to the diff cup until it feels notchy when assembled. Then I take 1 off and it is perfict. I usually end up having 3 on ring gear side and 1 on the diff cup side.

josh

Good call on shimming the pinion first.
(You would want to shim the pinion before doing the side shims if you are doing the pinion.)
It would be done best by doing that.
On a 1/1 diff there is a pinion depth measurement that you adjust the exact same way as this diff.
Shims behind the pinion gear.

My XL did not come with pinion shims, only the #Z892 side shims so I used what I had.
But HPI sent me a warranty diff to replace the broken pinion and that kit came with pinion shims as well as the side shims.
In the exploded view they don't even show any pinion shims or a PN for the pinion shims.
Just 86922b goes into B085.

Thanks jbooker.

SLAYER
Old 09-09-2009, 09:50 PM
  #19  
SLAYERDUDE
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

The new CEN style gears have been released!
http://www.hpiracing.com/products/en/102692/
Old 09-10-2009, 12:30 AM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

Let's hope they finally got the steel's alloy composition and heat treatment right.
Old 09-11-2009, 11:08 PM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!


ORIGINAL: HPI_Savage_RC

Let's hope they finally got the steel's alloy composition and heat treatment right.
no doubt! its worth a try tho!
Old 10-16-2009, 10:20 PM
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

6 pages?
Really?
BUMP
Old 02-27-2010, 05:56 AM
  #23  
etopsflight
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

Guys

For Savage XL

The diff cup shims P/N: Z892

The ring gear and pinion gear shims are the same P/N:Z877

These can be found on the website http://www.hpiracing.com/graphics/instr/pdf/10515.pdf

Has anybody concluded that the bevel gear side always requires more shims that the diff cup side and that it would make sense since this brings the bevel gear into a tighter mesh with the pinion gear?

I've read stock shims are ratio 1:1 and reshimming is 2:1 or possibly 3:1. I presume these are all with stock parts?

Cheers

Etops
Old 02-28-2010, 09:42 AM
  #24  
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

ive missed u slayerdude.u r  one of the first true pioneers of the xl...
Old 03-04-2010, 04:58 AM
  #25  
etopsflight
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Default RE: How I shim an XL Diff. Save your pinions!

guys

i checked the shimming on my diffs today but found that the factory settings to be spot-on. one each on the pinion gear, diff cup and the bevel gear.

filled the front with 30K and the rear with 50K. greased the pinion and bevel gears with some grease found at work.

that's my experience. still to run her so hope to have some feedback in a week or two.

cheers

etops


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