RE: savage top speed?
 

i have no idea ill have to figure it out but i dont have the stuff i need to do it

RE: savage top speed?
 

Well you can use your gps to measure distance. Or you can grab a 25ft tape measure and mark out 100ft and see how fast you can get in 100ft, then move it to 150ft and so on and so on.

I too have not marked out my distance, but it gets up to speed very quickly and I only drive it a full throttle for a short distance. Constant WOT passes wear an engine down very quickly

RE: savage top speed?
 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCnoZDkJiRM[/youtube]

RE: savage top speed?
 

Skillet I know you have done plenty of top speed runs, just curious as to know what engines have you clocked in your truck and what speeds have they gone?

RE: savage top speed?
 

Well I have an ERCM picco 28 and an ABmods picco 28 both run the ERCM endbleed.

The ERCM picco holds the overall record at 59.2mph
The ABmods picco holds out at 51mph

In the XL chassis I was able to reach 56.8mph and could have seen 57 easily. In the X chassis I hit 58mph and the flux chassis I hit 59.2mph. This was all done with the ERCM picco. Now a gallon sooner I would have crossed 60mph. Just the motor was on the downward slope of its life. It wasn't done but what I was doing with it it was. In its present state it will still kick the crap out of any other motor. Oh and it has a big scratch in it

Based off my experiance with the two different modders. I will continue to run ERCM all day long. His craftsman ship looks factory and is a work of art. I wish I could say the same for the other picco but I cannot. If you wat ballz out insanity get an ERCM motor.

In the world of RC it's like a ford vs Chevy thing and I am ERCM fan but I arrived at this by running the competition first

RE: savage top speed?
 

Have you ever ran a Clocked Nova .28 ? If not there's a whole other level up on the Picco's. Been there Done that. Savages aren't top speed machines but its interesting to see how fast you can move 12-13lbs across the parking lot. lol

RE: savage top speed?
 

I don't need to run a clocked picco to know my ERCM is stronger.

You don't hear about clocked Piccos tearing apart savages now do you?

The BP 3 spd mod was created because of an ERCM picco. I then improved upon that mod by adding the steel 1st gear.

I'm sure Neal makes great motors but based off my conversations with hi
Robins motors make more useable power at higher rpm's and make more torque at lower rpm's. I don't need a dyno sheet to prove an ERCM motor.

RE: savage top speed?
 

Check it out the last thing I want to do is get into a who's the best engine modder battle. We all have our opinions and thats exactly that, there opinions. I'll restate what I mentioned earlier, this is like a ford vs Chevy thing. And I side with ERCM, so what it's my choice. My above post is my opinion of the motors. I stand behind what I say but I'm not saying it to start a battle, cause it sure does look like it good lean that way.

RE: savage top speed?
 

My Picco makes plenty of top end power...on video mine revs much higher then yours does...I just dont bother with the Savage as all I did was tear the drive train out every time I ran them........

here is a 42 000 RPM Picco 28 carrying a 200 ft wheely with a center diff'd truggy...Now that is some serious HP and RPM to do that.........I do not hear your Picco 298 hitting anywhere near that RPM.....so don't be saying yours makes more top end power when it clearly doesn't even rev nearly as high as mine does....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svbaqFOW_5Q[/youtube]

[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yys0...feature=relmfu[youtube]

in the end I stopped running Savages 4 years ago because the drive trains couldn't handle the power of the Picco 28's.......I did try doing some top speed testing for one day, we were using a bone stock Savae XL, on Terrapin tires, body on...we hit 52 MPH and in one day melted 3 different 3 speed trannies.....we couldn't get one single clean run without the tranny failing, so we gave up as the juice was not worth the squeeze...nobody cares about a top speed Savage, So I was not going to waste any time on it............At the time Robin was experiencing the same things with tranny failures, at the time the drivetrains were junk and there were no bullet proof parts available to us....SO it was pretty tough to pursue any sort of top speed numbers when the gears themselves would melt........

In the end unless 2 engines are run in 100% identical setups there is no way to know which one makes more power..........its obvious my engine revs much higher then yours does...but mine is in a truggy.....just like your Savage has a much faster top end then mine did, but your truck and my truck are nothing alike..I am a stock, plus weight Savage XL on Terrapins........You have a short chassis, highly modified purpose built top speed truck on road tires............. comparing your Savage to mine is no different then me comparing my truggy to your Savage...All 3 are totally different machines.............Far as I know I still have the fastest Savage XL on Terrapin tires and stock drivetrain !!!!

So before you start making assumptions on who's engine is faster you should put things into proper perspective.........Robin and myself both do top notch work..... However you have no viable evidence that your Picco makes better top end power then mine does.... Going by video my engine clearly revs much higher then yours does...but we are in different vehicles, which meas comparing results and videos is meaningless....and this goes both ways..me comparing my engine to yours, and you comparing to mine............

Want a proper fair trial ? put your Picco 28 into a stock Savage XL, run Terrapin tires , stock gearing, stock drivetrain, use a Dynamite 086, OD 30% race ( not even the fancy Speed blend ) and see if you can break 52 MPH....Or send me your Savage, I will stick in a mod Nova 28 and I will show you 65 MPH ! :D

RE: savage top speed?
 

Haha here we go... First off your comparing a picco in a truggy to a picco in a much heavier savage. Wow, yes we all know that Dropping weight allows you to reach higher in the rpm band. So I'm not shocked that your picco is revving higher. Also 42,000 rpm under load. No my friend I don't believe that. This coming from a guy that will tell you all day long that the Piccos max power or useable power is in the 20-25,000rpm range. So why on earth would you build a motor that can rev so far past it's peak power? My savage XL weights 12lbs that stock weight or heavier and it ran 56.8mph. So no your XL isn't faster. There's guy here running a stock LRP 30 in an old savage 25 hittin 51mph and the truck is gone stock. So your 52mph attempt woohoo. As for making my claim, yes I showed you the facts that my picco made more power past your claim of 25,000. Mine consistently runs 29,000rpm and I have no lag on the bottom. Let's also not forget that I did all my speed runs with a Huge gouge in the piston and sleeve. So there alone proves even hurt it makes more peak power and at a higher rpm than your do.
Your right your both top notch modders, but when you sit here and tell me to gear my truck to 25,000rpm for it best power chance, your wrong! Oh and my purpose built savage is nothing more than stock hpi parts with the exception on the cen ring and pinion. Everything is stock.
Show me a savage running 65mph cause I sure as hell am not sending mine to you. Build your own and prove me wrong!

RE: savage top speed?
 

I just have to add here...that Robin at ERCM is my friend.... we both do great work........and I make no assumptions that my engines are faster or better then his engines.......And I am sure Robin feels the same way ......... When it comes to making RC cars go fast there are just too many variables involved to assume anything, and the more time you dedicate to a goal, the better the results you will have.....anyways major props to you guys for making a Savage run 60 MPH...I do not want to take anything away from that by turning this into a modder vs modder type discussion.....As I beleive we are both pretty skilled at tuning these engines, and we tend to focus on different characteristics for our engines......... I mainly specialize in Truggy/Buggy engines..Robin does more in the MT engine side of things...tho we both are more then capable of doing the other, the bulk of our R+D is focused into our specific specialties..., As I say the more time we spend testing, the more advanced we become in our specified craft respectively........... I mainly develop engines that run in a single speed track machines,s......My engines generally operate from 9000 RPM to 42 000 RPM under load...without a 2 speed gearbox the race machines require a engine with are under the curve more so then high peak HP......

RE: savage top speed?
 

42000 rpm under load? That's a bold statement...maybe geared waaaaay down.

RE: savage top speed?
 

Notice I never said anything negative about the work you do. I simply compared my numbers to your numbers. This was not supposed to be a he's better than you argument. Your right you both mainly deal with different areas of the RC world but You comparing your truggy motors to a monster truck motor is silly IMO. I am well aware that you and robin are friends, but your also competitors in the same right.

Originally I was asked if I tried one of your motors by someone who runs your gear. My answer to him was based off my comparison to the numbers you have provided in another conversation. You may very well be able to make a picco scream to 40,000rpm. You may be able to make a motor to allow a savage to run past 60mph. But again my comparisons are based off previous conversations in threads that end up getting deleted.

My speed runs are something that I am very interested in. My ERCM picco was not modded for top speed but for torque. In doings speed runs I have learned a lot. Robin is also my friend and without his help and knowledge I wouldn't be where I am now. Just wait till the next episode

RE: savage top speed?
 

Do the math on a Mugen MBX5T.... 14th CB, stock geared everywhere else..on GRP LPR race tires.........to reach 50 MPH the engine is pulling well past 40 000 RPM........the car is only geared up 1 tooth over stock......... My race engines all pull 40K under load in race conditions...... Some reaching as high as 44 000 RPM ..........Stock gearing or geared up 1 tooth..... I use a radar gun as well as a acoustic Tachometer........

I think you have misunderstood me ....... The Geometry of the Picco 28 somewhat dictates that its more efficient at lower RPM's long stroke, short rod, heavy piston......On the dyno the engine shows that it makes its best numbers when it peaks at the 25 000 RPM range....... Of course we can easily push the peak higher playing with timing and piping , but then we start to lose area under the curve as well as a tendency to reduce mean overall output.......But of course these are only my observations based off several thousand hands on hours dyno testing these engines ... playing with tuned pipes,port timing and engine geometry...... I am experienced and wise enough to know nothing is set in stone and I make no assumptions one way or the other without thorough testing ......There are just too many variables involved to make any absolute judgements.........

HP and RPM ..... I ask you this...have you tested a gear ration that will give you 62 MPH at 25 000 RPM ? If not, could you tell me what gearing you would need ? And then tell me what the tallest gearing you tried is ? and what was the result of the taller gearing ?

RE: savage top speed?
 

Do the math on a Mugen MBX5T.... 14th CB, stock geared everywhere else..on GRP LPR race tires.........to reach 50 MPH the engine is pulling well past 40 000 RPM........the car is only geared up 1 tooth over stock......... My race engines all pull 40K under load in race conditions...... Some reaching as high as 44 000 RPM ..........Stock gearing or geared up 1 tooth..... I use a radar gun as well as a acoustic Tachometer........

I think you have misunderstood me ....... The Geometry of the Picco 28 somewhat dictates that its more efficient at lower RPM's long stroke, short rod, heavy piston......On the dyno the engine shows that it makes its best numbers when it peaks at the 25 000 RPM range....... Of course we can easily push the peak higher playing with timing and piping and whatnot , but then we start to lose area under the curve as well as a reduced peak output....Onroad .21's peak at 29-30K and are efficient when doing so, a Picco 28 can peak high, but it loses efficiency in doing so..........anyways these are my observations based off several thousand hours of hands on dyno testing nitro engines ... playing with tuned pipes,port timing and engine geometry...... In the end I am experienced and wise enough to know nothing is set in stone and I make no assumptions one way or the other without thorough testing ......There are just too many variables involved to make any absolute judgements......So far you have offered me no proof your engine makes more power at 29K then it would at 25K... the only way to prove the engine makes less at 25K is to gear the truck to reach 60 MPH at 25K and see if the truck can pull it.... if it cant pull 60 MPH at 25K we know the engine does not make enough HP to sustain 60 MPH...However if the truck pushes past 60 MPH at 25 gearing, we then know the engine has power in excess at 25K and it can push even higher gearing....................... However with that being said I do not doubt nor do I believe your engine makes peak at 29K... I do not believe you have enough testing done to know one way or the other...myself I hold no opinion of the fact one way or the other. I only question your strong conclusions based off what I see as incomplete testing......unless of course you have run a much taller gearing then I realize.... heck I don't even know if you can gear the truck to be at 60 MPH at 25K engine RPM......can you ?


HP and RPM ..... I ask you this...have you tested a gear ration that will give you 62 MPH at 25 000 RPM ? If not, could you tell me what gearing you would need ? And then tell me what the tallest gearing you tried is ? and what was the result of the taller gearing ?

RE: savage top speed?
 

If your so wise, then why do you huff and puff first, then decide to sit down and write out an educated response?

The tallest gearing I run is 20/43t with 26/9t diffs, 146mm tires. This gearing, set for 62mph, yields an rpm of 28,400. I have an RS4 MOD1 22t CB and that geared for 62mph yields an rpm of 25,500 but I have to mod the CB to fit on the savage chassis, so I may not use it. However based off my experiance with high speed runs has shown me that its not all about gearing. The motor, one has to have torque to push the gearing, and two it needs to have a lot of power to reach those speeds. So my new motor will have a few changes from this last one. The crazy part is that my last motor was a torque motor not a high speed motor but yet it could have passed 60mph. My new goal is 65mph and I will reach it.
Something else that has come to light is the stock 3spd tranny cannot pass 55mph without clutch pawl modifications. It simply cannot allow the motor to rev high enough into the power band to optimize the shift point.
Your right the pipe and header have to be set up correctly for high speed runs. As you are already aware of the ERCM pipe is no joke and DOES make power. However for the lower rpm you speak of you need a longer header and for the taller rpm you need a shorter header. I have both to play with. But my 59mph run I used the shorter header.

Oh and everytime I upped the gearing on my setup, the truck went faster and faster.
With 18/44 and 143mm tires and 29/9 diffs Ive gone 55mph, with 18/43t, 146mm and 29/9 ive gone 55mph, with 18/43t, 146mm tires, and 26/9 diffs ive gone 58mph, with 19/43t, 146mm tires and 26/9t diffs i went 59mph. So as you can see the more gearing the faster I can go. If the motor had 1 less gallon on it and with the 20t cb 43t spur, 146mm tires and 26/9t diffs I would have broke 60mph. All of this is well within the 28,500-29,600rpm range using the ERCM endbleed and shortened dynamite header.

Im still confused how can achieve 40,000+ rpm under load with the picco, but yet your dyno shows the best power under 25k. So then why do you mod your piccos to rev so high when they dont need to. All that does it raise the risk of popping the motor.

RE: savage top speed?
 

a Truggy does not have a 2 speed.....the engine has to push a 10 lb truck from 0-50 MPH with only a single speed... So overall the best performance comes from a engine that has the ability to spool into he extreme high RPM's........... You can try to gear up a lower revving torque engine, but it usually results in a melted clutch and less than stellar performance....

My dyno shows most engines make their best peak at 25K.But of course there are exceptions............usually high strung 7 and 9 port .21's will make big peaks near 30K......but offroad mills usually shine at 25K( give or take within reason of course ) .

in a truggy the area under the curve is more critical then where and how high the engine makes peak power, usually I tune my engines to have the ability to carry useable power well past the engines peak....

anyways here is a dyno of a high strung, short stroke .21..before and after modifications....should better explain what I mean by useable power after peak....

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...013vsstock.jpg

RE: savage top speed?
 

here is a bone stock Picco 28 with 0.1 mm head shim removed, OFNA 086 vs a modified B5 race .21.....

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...vedvsModB5.jpg

RE: savage top speed?
 

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...25modified.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...sstockvsB5.jpg

RE: savage top speed?
 

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...co28vsOS28.jpg

RE: savage top speed?
 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKGjOE_7bYI[/youtube]

RE: savage top speed?
 

Your right Foxy

Neal a dyno only shows one part of the story and you know this. Yet they are impressive gains, it still does not make sense why you would push an engine almost 20k higher when they don't need it. I would think if you added a little more torque to your mods you could achieve the same top end without the insane motor poppin rpm.

RE: savage top speed?
 

How could I achieve the same top end ? I guess we could gear up a couple of teeth...However as I explained earlier that doesn't really work well in a Truggy/Buggy as you lose the snap needed for the jumps as well the clutch systems start to melt.............Gotta remember these are single speed machines that run on a race track, with plenty of jumps and short run obstacles...so having killer bottom end is mandatory.......Gearing up just kills the feel of the machine, and as I say it tends to melt the clutches........On a 28 we usually gear up 1-2 teeth, on a 25 we gear up 1 tooth and on a .21 we run stock gearing......

Also there is no way to modify for more torque, unless of course you are willing to sacrifice top end.........even then I am not sure you can make more torque then I already do on my engines.....I mean we use a .21 to push a single speed 9.5 lb truggy...that can run 0-50 MPH back to zero faster and in half the distance a MT can reach 50........ the engine needs to have a pile of torque to be able to accelerate a truggy like that......without the leverage of a 2 speed gearbox the engines are required to pull a substantial load at low RPM

anyways here is a Losi 2.0 truggy, stock gearing, CRE Bonito running on our ultra high bite track...this track surface has more grip then asphalt ...So the engine needs to have grunt to pull the truck....But this should give you an idea of why we dont gear up...Also in this video the engine is hitting 43 000 RPM ............Also the engine is well built and has no issue holding together running these RPM's...Novarossi are very solid engines.........

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrJ-mI1a2bs[/youtube]

RE: savage top speed?
 

this video here will give you a better birds eye veiw of whats involved in the track, and why we need such strong low end pop............


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLiiejIA0FQ[/youtube]


needless to say, high RPM engines are my specialty.......Of course not every engine is capable of surviving at these RPM's.....however many of the better built engines have no issue being run like this............

RE: savage top speed?
 

its fact......we pull those RPM's every time we go down the straight.......... the gearing on the machines is stock for the most part.....with a Buggy /truggy you dont really have any viable ways to gear then lower usually.....Plus with a single speed gearing them lower will result in a loss of top speed...............