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  1. #1

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    Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    Anyone ever check the incidence on their Pilot Sbach ???

    Curious to know if its worth putting some incidence adjusters on my plane ??

    Any comments ??
    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?

  2. #2
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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    I did a repair job on a 100cc Pilot Sbach for a customer a couple years back. What I found is that this particular one was pretty darned close. My customer had the engine thrust angles all jacked up tying to compensate for an aft CG. I moved the batteries forward and reset the thrust to zero and it flew a ton better. IMO once you get the CG dialed in and make a few adjustments you are good to go without adjusters. You may want to measure the airplane. Usually having the thrust at zero, stab at zero and wing at .5 degrees positive is a good starting point. Always set the CG first before any other trimming as CG influences exerything. If you get halfway through trimming and change the CG, you will have to start all over again.
    Of course it's true, I read it on the Internet.

  3. #3

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    If you want a plane to be neutral on all axes, it needs a symmetrical airfoil, stab in line with the wing, zero engine downthrust, zero incidence. Flight is adjusted using the COG and Tx sticks only.
    Pe, (www.mvvs.nl), MVVS, MOKImotor, RCexl, MTW, Xoar, Mejzlik.
    Blessing in ignorance? There is sanctuary in analysis.

  4. #4
    speedracerntrixie's Avatar
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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??


    ORIGINAL: pe reivers

    If you want a plane to be neutral on all axes, it needs a symmetrical airfoil, stab in line with the wing, zero engine downthrust, zero incidence. Flight is adjusted using the COG and Tx sticks only.
    I disagree. When an airplane is set to 0-0-0 one must carry a tad of up elevator trim to get the wing to fly with a positive AOA. This pos AOA is needed to generate enough lift to carry the wight of the aircraft. The result will be an airplane that pulls to the canopy on up and down lines. Adding a little pos to the wing keeps the thrust line and stab line at zero where they belong. The only real downside to this is that the airplane will require a toch more forward stick while inverted however the pro's outweigh the con's.

    Of course it's true, I read it on the Internet.

  5. #5

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    I built my Dalton 300MEL with wing incidence adjusters. Initially set the wing at +0.5deg and have never needed to touch it.
    (I think the plans called for 0deg on the wing) I also believe the engine and stab are at 0deg.

  6. #6

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??


    ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie


    ORIGINAL: pe reivers

    If you want a plane to be neutral on all axes, it needs a symmetrical airfoil, stab in line with the wing, zero engine downthrust, zero incidence. Flight is adjusted using the COG and Tx sticks only.
    I disagree. When an airplane is set to 0-0-0 one must carry a tad of up elevator trim to get the wing to fly with a positive AOA. This pos AOA is needed to generate enough lift to carry the wight of the aircraft. The result will be an airplane that pulls to the canopy on up and down lines. Adding a little pos to the wing keeps the thrust line and stab line at zero where they belong. The only real downside to this is that the airplane will require a toch more forward stick while inverted however the pro's outweigh the con's.

    With all surfaces zero, you need just as much up elevator as down elevator to obtain flying AoA in upright and inverted flight. A built in incidence will always favor a certain plane attitude at the cost of the other.

    Pe, (www.mvvs.nl), MVVS, MOKImotor, RCexl, MTW, Xoar, Mejzlik.
    Blessing in ignorance? There is sanctuary in analysis.

  7. #7

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??


    ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie

    I Always set the CG first before any other trimming as CG influences exerything. If you get halfway through trimming and change the CG, you will have to start all over again.
    That is possibly the best single piece of advice you could ever give anyone on set-up......good post !

  8. #8
    speedracerntrixie's Avatar
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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??


    ORIGINAL: pe reivers


    ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie


    ORIGINAL: pe reivers

    If you want a plane to be neutral on all axes, it needs a symmetrical airfoil, stab in line with the wing, zero engine downthrust, zero incidence. Flight is adjusted using the COG and Tx sticks only.
    I disagree. When an airplane is set to 0-0-0 one must carry a tad of up elevator trim to get the wing to fly with a positive AOA. This pos AOA is needed to generate enough lift to carry the wight of the aircraft. The result will be an airplane that pulls to the canopy on up and down lines. Adding a little pos to the wing keeps the thrust line and stab line at zero where they belong. The only real downside to this is that the airplane will require a toch more forward stick while inverted however the pro's outweigh the con's.

    With all surfaces zero, you need just as much up elevator as down elevator to obtain flying AoA in upright and inverted flight. A built in incidence will always favor a certain plane attitude at the cost of the other.


    Partly true. As I did state it will require more forward stick while inverted however it leads to better up and down lines. If the airplane was set up nuetral the way I think you have described here, it will have too aft or a CG for precision IMAC flying. If you look at the current sequences there are lots of rolling elements while on up and down lines especially when you get past intermidiate. Not so many from inverted so it does lead to a lower pilot workload.

    Of course it's true, I read it on the Internet.

  9. #9

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    personal preference.
    Pe, (www.mvvs.nl), MVVS, MOKImotor, RCexl, MTW, Xoar, Mejzlik.
    Blessing in ignorance? There is sanctuary in analysis.

  10. #10

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    Flyer88,

    What is the incidence on your model now, and why do you think you need to change it?

    Magne

  11. #11

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    My Sbach is in transit from Pilot.

    I was curious because I have them on my 2m pattern plane and wondered why I dont see them on giant gasser.

    But I am curious and will check during the build.

    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?

  12. #12

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    I sell a trim guide for these issues called " Triangulation Trimming "
    and am the originator of the positive inc setup
    I sell an Exhaustive laminated trim guide that covers all issues related with trimming prop planes.
    My article explanes why it works ( some have repeated some of it here in this forum thank you!

    On my site there is an article I put out a few years ago, that changed perception of my methods.
    It is used By Christophe ,Chip, Jason ,Andrew, and Brett ( Multiple time f3A world team Members ),as well as many other World class level Pilots.
    I have spent 20 years refining this method to better explain how it works.

    Here are some discussions that will go into detail with a few guys that may be helpfull as well.
    As Always Eat the fish and throw the bones out
    http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9961187/tm.htm

    My Trim Guide is 4 pages with a chart that will address what the airplane is doing and give a fix. From pulling to the belly in a upline to
    what to do when a airplane pulls in one direction on one knife edge and to another direction on the reverse side.

    The testamonials alone should tell you it works

    Bryan Hebert
    hebertcompetitiondesigns.com
    CKAero.net Team YS, Futaba, cool power, Central hobbies, Hyde Mounts, contra, xtreme composites

  13. #13
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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??


    ORIGINAL: pe reivers

    personal preference.
    Exactly right!! It is personal preference to either move the sticks all over the transmitter to make the plane fly a certain way....or not!!

    Most of us that fly precision aerobatics prefer to trim the model as close to neutral in any attitude as practical. We strive to achieve perfect precision flight (read, perfect response) with the absolute minimum interference from us. The lower the workload, the better. Bryan's "how to" is good place to go to for many answers. Although a bunch of good modelers havewritten varying information on the subject from time to time, he wasthe first to actually put in words what the actual process that some of us havelearned the hard way,truly is.

    BTW- a model set-up at 0-0-0 will require different amount on input in elevator, upright vs inverted. The model will likely also require different left and right aileron amounts for constant roll rate for most typical wing planforms and a single rotating prop up front. So I agree it is personal preference to fly the model with variable amount of input based on the model's needs
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  14. #14
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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    I visited your site Bryan and found the trim guide but could not figure out how to actually buy one, like a shopping cart? Thanks.

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    You can pay me through paypal for now but I have a shopping cart on the way as well when the updated site goes online
    Bryan
    hebertcompetitiondesigns.com
    CKAero.net Team YS, Futaba, cool power, Central hobbies, Hyde Mounts, contra, xtreme composites

  16. #16

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    Not that I'm any expert but my first incidence situation happened on a 30cc size Sbach. Pitchy-Twitchy and wouldn't stay in trim as speed varied.
    I had to first correct cg...it was tail heavy. Annoyingly the thing still varied trim with airspeed and acted unstable in pitch. Started researching and incidence came up quickly.
    Went to the LHS, got the Hangar 9 Incidence meter and the long bar and had a look.
    Lo and behold, I had a Zero incidence setup, relative to stab. So I worked in about 0.5 degrees positive on the wing by shimming, etc., and BINGO, it acts like an airplane should now.
    Two YEARS later and I'm still enjoying the airplane.
    Seriously, Zero-Zero is unstable. At least in my experience.
    There are a number of so called experts that seem to agree one needs half to three quarters of a degree of positive incidence.

    Good luck guys!

  17. #17

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??


    ORIGINAL: garyr1

    Not that I'm any expert but my first incidence situation happened on a 30cc size Sbach. Pitchy-Twitchy and wouldn't stay in trim as speed varied.
    I had to first correct cg...it was tail heavy. Annoyingly the thing still varied trim with airspeed and acted unstable in pitch. Started researching and incidence came up quickly.
    Went to the LHS, got the Hangar 9 Incidence meter and the long bar and had a look.
    Lo and behold, I had a Zero incidence setup, relative to stab. So I worked in about 0.5 degrees positive on the wing by shimming, etc., and BINGO, it acts like an airplane should now.
    Two YEARS later and I'm still enjoying the airplane.
    Seriously, Zero-Zero is unstable. At least in my experience.
    There are a number of so called experts that seem to agree one needs half to three quarters of a degree of positive incidence.

    Good luck guys!
    What brand is your Sbach ??
    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?

  18. #18
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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    ORIGINAL: Flyer88


    ORIGINAL: garyr1

    Not that I'm any expert but my first incidence situation happened on a 30cc size Sbach. Pitchy-Twitchy and wouldn't stay in trim as speed varied.
    I had to first correct cg...it was tail heavy. Annoyingly the thing still varied trim with airspeed and acted unstable in pitch. Started researching and incidence came up quickly.
    Went to the LHS, got the Hangar 9 Incidence meter and the long bar and had a look.
    Lo and behold, I had a Zero incidence setup, relative to stab. So I worked in about 0.5 degrees positive on the wing by shimming, etc., and BINGO, it acts like an airplane should now.
    Two YEARS later and I'm still enjoying the airplane.
    Seriously, Zero-Zero is unstable. At least in my experience.
    There are a number of so called experts that seem to agree one needs half to three quarters of a degree of positive incidence.

    Good luck guys!
    What brand is your Sbach ??
    I think the sticker on the tail might be telling you something... Here is a link to them.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.b2I&cad=rja

    Bob
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    Fly It Like You Stole It!!!

  19. #19

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    Thats my own Sbach....I want to know what company makes Sbachs with zero incidence. Hope its not Pilot.

    Havent got mine to check it yet. They had to alter some of the graphics . Should be here in a week.
    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?

  20. #20

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    OK guys...sorry to keep everyone in such suspense!
    My 30cc Sbach is a Slipstream unit.
    0 incidence.

  21. #21

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    RE: Wing incidence on Giant scale ??

    Wow shipping was very fast from Pilot . Only 3 days from China !! Wow.

    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?


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