toprudder

I just acquired a Hanger 9 Extra 260 kit, with the intention of flying in IMAC next season. I would like to get recommendations for equipment to use in the airframe.

I have pretty much decided to go with a DA-50 for power, and am interested in a canister muffler system. I've also seen the ads for the new Evolution 45, but some of the accessories (such as exhaust system) are not yet available, and I have not heard any first-hand reports on the engine.

I have a Futaba 9ZAP which has done me well in the past for flying pattern, and I have a stock of both JR and Futaba servos, but are older models. I have Futaba 9201, 9101 and JR 4131, 4000, and 4791 servos. I think the 4791 would be adequate for ailerons but not sure about rudder. I'm not opposed to buying new servos, I just don't want to buy something if what I have is adequate. I don't plan on doing any 3D, just IMAC manuevers, so throw will not be extreme.

What would be really cool is if the weight could be kept below 11 lbs, this plane would also be legal for pattern. But, from the reports I have read, even with a light glow engine it will be over 11 lbs. I seriously doubt a light glow engine would have the vertical required anyway.

Thanks in advance,
Bob Richards

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

An OS 1.60 or one of the big Mokis will provide all the power you need for IMAC; likewise a Saito 1.80 or 2.20, if you can afford to feed one of those. There were several folks who use DA-50s and a couple of other gas engines; I made a query in the Giant Scale forum regarding these users today, asking them how the airframe has held up to that pounding from a gas engine; no responses so far.

Your 9202s/4131s will be adequate on aileron and elevator for IMAC use; probably not enough for hard 3D. You'll need a big-nut rudder servo; I'm using a Futaba 9151.

No way you'll get this plane under 11 pounds with an adequate engine. Mine weighed 12.9 pounds with the kit c/f gear/OS 1.60/Bisson Pitts muffler. I put the TNT aluminum offering, which is several ounces heavier, on mine after that cheap c/f gear cracked on the fifth landing. There have been LOTS of problems with this gear; keep a close eye on yours.

The plane flies beautifully. The supplied hardware is not the best, but entirely usable. The supplied tail wheel unit is a bit flimsy; I replaced that with a steel Ohio Products Haigh unit, which added a couple of ounces I'm sure.

rcblimppro

If the tailwheel that comes with the H9 260 really is that questionable you may want to check into one that I produce. For that size model the tailwheel assembly with mounting hardware weighs only 1 oz.




Shawn Berkheimer



http://www.rcblimpproductions.com/tailwheels.html

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

Looks very nice. At only ten bucks more than the Ohio Products unit, I wish I'd known about yours when I made the purchase.

All is not lost... I have the WH Edge to rig out...

BTW. what is the "leg" made from? I can see the c/f on the actual wheel assembly; what about the strut?

rcblimppro

Steve, the struts are made from Titanium rod. The unit pictured has a 1/4" strut for 40% airplanes but we make 4 different sizes ranging from 1/8" strut diameter up to the 1/4". For the H9 260 and the WH 28% airplanes the 5/32" medium size is just the ticket.


Shawn Berkheimer

R/C Blimp Productions.com

toprudder

I just checked, and I have a bunch of JR 4721 servos, which I believe are 120oz torque servos. Do you think that would not be enough for the rudder? I might use those on the ailerons as well, due to the large size. I also have a few 4735s, but I don't know offhand what the specs are for those.

toprudder

Do you think the DA50 is complete overkill? I've never owned a gasoline engine, but I like the idea of low fuel costs (aka PRACTICE). What other gasoline engine(s) would you recommend?

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

Thanks, Shawn. So noted.

Toprudder, the 4721 might be a tad light for that rudder; its a big one. I use that servo on rudder for my CG Ultimate, and have used it successfully on a CG Sukhoi. But this plane is somewhat large than those two. 4721s on aileron will be fine, of course.

4735s... hmmm. For a long time, those were the 60-size helicopter tail rotor servo of choice, before digitals came on the scene. I would think they'd be fine on aileron or elevator.

As for the DA 50, I have no gas experience other than watching my pal crank/run his, and flying the plane a bit.

rcblimppro

If I were going to get a H9 Extra 260 ( and I have been thinking about it ) I would not consider any engine but the DA 50. I would think the trick here is to not go overkill with the accessories. Replace items deemed too heavy ( wingtube, gear, tailwheel, hardware ) Do not get crazy with the radio gear. Single RX, 2400 mah rx pack 1000 mah ignition battery, 20 oz fuel tank, mid size servo on throttle, CF pushrods. With all this consideration there is no reason this airplane should get to be more than 13 lbs and would perform great.



Shawn Berkheimer

R/C Blimp Productions.com

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

Well, mine is tricked out just about the way you described, except for the engine and c/f wing tube. As for replacing the "heavy gear", you had better replace the kit "light" gear with something more substantial. I used the TNT aluminum offering after that super el cheapo c/f POS kit gear cracked.

I understand that a DA 50 is considerably heavier than the OS 1.60/Bisson muffler. My airplane weighs 13.4 pounds dry with the latter. I think you'd have quite a time getting it under 13 pounds with a gas engine of any flavor. The guys that reported using them earlier in this thread (who have been strangely quiet regarding my query in another post on how their planes are holding up) all reported 14-15 pounds RTF dry weight.

rmh

Mine is 13.25 lbs and with the ZDZ40RE-nJMB can- a rocket --and holding up just fine -- I replaced the firewall after a 30ft straight flat fall onto the runway --ker splat! (tank had come adrift)
It cranks a 21x8 Mejzlic at 7200 on the ground -as a power comparison .
The airframe is really far lighter than many give it credit for -I weighed mine and matched weight against the 202 by Ultra -except for their gear(?) the weights were very close -.
It is a favorite of mine .
I included pic of gear I made this evening for my Funtana -same as I have on my 260 The entire gear here is 5.8 ounces as shown. You can knock weight off these things by selecting very high output light engines and watching which servos/batts etc are used .
I have NO carbon fiber in mine except for the tailwheel assy
PS Bob - you will really like the model -There is no need to carve on anything - just change the gear
Another engine choice besides the ZDZ40 RE would be the new Evolution 45 -but opt for a small JMB can - their exhaust setup is a bit heavy - The ZDZRE allows a 3" direct couple header to can. Either is lighter than the 50's -any of em -but the 50's do out power the 40-45's

rcblimppro

Well Steve, there are always things that can be done to shave a few ozs. Some of the local guys think I am crazy for the lengths I go to to get every bit of dead weight off an airplane, Here are a few that I tink most people wouldn't have thought about.


1. Aluminum gears are usually squared off near the axle, I radius them and you can also cut a hole between mounting bolts. This should be good for 1/4 to 1/2 oz

2. The area of the firewall between the engine mounting bolts is also dead weight.

3. Run Kevlar for your pull pull to rudder

4. Sand the inside of the cowl smooth ( Get rid of the cloth weave ) Seriously, on a 40% this is 1.5 oz

5. make up your own servo leads to the exact length required.

6. MAke sure that all screws used are just the right length with no excess.

7. When sanding a sheeted wins or stabs, spend more time sanding towards the tip, out there the same strength isn't needed.

8. On my 38% Extra the kit cowl was 18oz, I made my own mold and the colw that I lay up are coming out at 13oz.


I understand that most people would not want to invest this much time into getting a few ounces off their airplane but everytime I fly my DA 150 powered 35# Extra I sure am glad I put in the overtime.


SHawn Berkheimer

R/C Blimp Productions.com

toprudder

I've wondered about the Evolution 45, but have not talked to anyone that has run one.

JMB cans. Forgive me, but I have no experience with these gas engines. Do you have a link where I can find out information, or purchase this?

Thanks for the info.

Bob R.

rmh

Bob -The JMB cans are sold thru RCShowcase .
Basically they are a big ass-ed muffler -no tuning -just a bit of an extractor with the extremely short header .
Should be just fine on the DA -IF you tilt the engine and use extremely short header.
You need to prop these things to really cook -if you are still after REAL power .
7000 is rock bottom rpm for best results -on flip flop stuff - for IMAC - anything will work that cranks 6500 or better .
I run my ZDZ50 at 7700 on the ground for best 3D setup -but only at 6700 for IMAC type flying .
You might consider the wrap around header and a tuned can or tuned pipe but the weight just takes off again . My setup is a blast with the lighter 40 and small JMB can

As you know th esetup means more thanjust buying "stuff" and hoping.
I did a 3d non scale thing -like a big Runaround 1280 squares and a ZDZ40 on a tuned can at 11 lbs - Un real power to weight
This is the lightest/power setup I know of

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

Shawn,

I hear you, and understand your methods. I am actually a bit fascinated by this "lose weight at any cost" attitude some of you guys have- and the way you accomplish it, such as the methods you out-lined, are very interesting.

I'm one of those who is not bothered by a few extra ounces...

rmh

How about pounds?

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

Sure, they make a difference. However, while I understand that some guys like to put a four pound engine on a plane designed for a two pound engine because they want more power, I'm having trouble warming up to that concept. Especially if it means having to shave weight in other areas to compensate.

And here's something else that I found; ultra-light has its drawbacks too. I had an EF 68" Yak that weighed just over nine pounds with a Laser 150. On a calm day, the plane was orgasmic to fly. In any wind, it was squirrelly as hell. Lots of folks obviously don't mind that, given the popularity of the plane. I found it undesirable; so I sold it.

At its current weight, my H9 27% Extra handles wind quite well. I hope to get the OS 1.60 sorted out so I can enjoy flying the plane; weather and the holidays are holding me up right now. And, I eventually plan to put a 50cc gas engine on it, when I get around to trying gasoline power. But when I do, I'll just swallow the weight/higher wing loading and fly the model.

I admire and applaud those of you who are into the more esoteric aspects of the hobby. But for me, it IS a hobby. What you guys are doing to lighten these airplanes is too much like work...

I do, however, keep an eye on the various threads, and am learning quite a bit. So I know where to look if the sudden urge strikes.

rmh

yes it is a hobby for me too -
but mo power and lighter weight is still the best wind setup -
It allows you to fight the drifting with faster speed recovery inputs
I not futz with little stuf just hit the big points -- a really strong light engine - a really strong light gear - good light batteries and away we gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooo

PaulBK

shawn, all the guys i know that have spent money and time lightening an aiframe - including me - have one thing in common - they'll never do it again. it really is more about bragging rights than any real increase in performance. guys like dick that fly at altitude have to pay attention, but for most us at lower elevations, flying light as opposed to flying lightest just isn't all that important - at least it hasn't shown to be a factor as far where a pilot places in a contest. there are always the no brainers like lightened backplates, and lightwheels, but when you start cutting the tops of screws off of a 35% airplane to save a 1/2 ounce....

back when I was writing the SA column for MA I got reamed by Dennis Gergits of Carden for stating unequivocally that lighter is better - regardless of size. While I could have spared myself the public flogging at the TOC, he really is correct, plenty of the top pilots could fly lighter, they simply choose not to. A friend of mine built a 32lb AW 37% 300L - it flew great in dead air, but with any kind of breeze, his heavier model was far better. On the smaller planes, like the H9 Extra, I think if you can stay around 13 - 15lbs you are okay. But given the power of the DA, my recommendation would be to look at one of the larger 50cc airplanes that really were designed around the 50, and not the H9 Extra.

P

extar 260

The extra 260 was build and tested with a da 50 23 x 8 this was one of the set up used
and flew great

rcblimppro

Paul, honestly I build all my airplanes this way. There are some things that I would agree that are overkill. When I flew in the SW IMAC championships in '03 I was flying a Fiberclassics 202 that weighed 38 lbs. Where I live at sea level the airplane performed very well but in Vegas it was a complete different story. I had to re-prop and fly the airplane much faster. As you can imagine, I had not practiced at this speed so it was an issue. With my current airplane being 3 lbs lighter I was able to compete with the same setup and pace that I was practicing. The Result was a 5th place finish at this years SW championships. On clam days I use a stab tube that has a 6 oz peice of 1/4" music wire in it, for windy days I replace that tube with one without the weigh and have no issues other than my thumbs.



Shawn Berkheimer

R/C Blimp Productions.com

rmh

On the bigger things -like the 37% the 40% weight is not as much an issue as is power - a 37% that is too light - I have never seen - but underpowered ? yes indeedy
Build a 50% whatever - the weight no problem -- but where did the power go !
I have yet to see a full scale aerobat that had ballast added -lets be serious . lighter is better and lighter with more power is best .
We have stuffed 160s in models claimed to be "fantastic " with the xxxx brand 100 -
up here ? they are very tepid. To battle wind -you need more inertia
weight times velocity squared ----- to do a better job in wind , a little more speed is more effective than a little more weight .

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

Well, I'm not going to argue with more experienced contest pilots. All I know is, I've flown more than one example of two separate airframes- Super Kaos 40 and Sportster 60- and the heavier one in both cases flew better in the wind. And that EF Yak was just plain NOT fun to fly in wind. The CG Sukhoi that replaced it, at 11.5 pounds with the same engine, was a lot more steady in wind. And this Extra - probably at 13.5 now with that aluminum gear- is superb in wind.

I'm talking 10-15 mph and up, here.

toprudder

Dick,

I noticed in the instructions for the H9 Extra that they do not isolate the canister muffler from the interior of the fuselage. I have a hard time buying into that! Did you make a tunnel or build a compartment to close off the canister? With the way the JMB canister mounts, I am thinking of rolling a tube of thin balsa with a rear bulkhead to mount the muffler to.

Bob R.

rmh

really not necessary - just make a floor of firm 3/32 - balsa cross grain. back a ways
-to end of pipe
then a bulkhead with a soft tube from 1/2" dia blueline - to accept the spud on the rear of the can
Let the air around the pipe find it's own way out - which can be as easy as a small window in each of the lower angled areas which connect bottom to sides
closing off the pipe in a tunnel -is really not the best setup to control heat
My H9 EDGE w/ZDZ80J same setup it all stays nice and cool
The larger the open area around the pipe -the better.