Basic
12-22-2005, 09:28 AM
#76
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RE: Basic
rcplane,
If I understood your post correctly, it sounds like you got a judge who misunderstood the rules. On the half reverse cuban you should not pull the 5/8 loop immediately after the half roll. As Ed indicated, the half roll is centered on the 45 leading into the inside 5/8 loop.
The judge may have applied the rule for entering half loops from a horizontal line. If, for example, you are flying a manuever from upright level flight that calls for a half roll then a half inside loop (split S) then the half inside loop should immediately follow the half roll.
Dave Michael
If I understood your post correctly, it sounds like you got a judge who misunderstood the rules. On the half reverse cuban you should not pull the 5/8 loop immediately after the half roll. As Ed indicated, the half roll is centered on the 45 leading into the inside 5/8 loop.
The judge may have applied the rule for entering half loops from a horizontal line. If, for example, you are flying a manuever from upright level flight that calls for a half roll then a half inside loop (split S) then the half inside loop should immediately follow the half roll.
Dave Michael
12-22-2005, 10:14 AM
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RE: Basic
rcplane,
To make it simple an Immelman and split Ess has no line between the loop and 1/2 roll. A Cuban, Humpty, and sharks tooth, neede a equal length line before and after.
PS: Food for thought...Equal length sometimes depends on the judge, a lot of judges(even proficient ones), count the seconds to fly the line before and after, equal time does not always mean equal length.
Dan Powell
To make it simple an Immelman and split Ess has no line between the loop and 1/2 roll. A Cuban, Humpty, and sharks tooth, neede a equal length line before and after.
PS: Food for thought...Equal length sometimes depends on the judge, a lot of judges(even proficient ones), count the seconds to fly the line before and after, equal time does not always mean equal length.
Dan Powell
12-22-2005, 01:46 PM
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RE: Basic
I know what you are saying and that is how I practiced the maneuver but was corrected at the first (and only so far) event I went to last year.
At the event I went to, I was told (and everybody that flew Basic well or helped me did it this way) to pull the 5/8 right after rolling to inverted, no delay staying inverted. (this is on the 1/2 reverse cuban 8)The opposite of the sharks tooth for example in last years sequence. Pull up to vertical, pull to 4/5 down line at top then 1/2 way down on 45 degree down line perform the 1/2 roll, trying to make the point where the 1/2 roll is exactly in the middle. This is how they said not to do the 1/2 roll part on the half cuban.
Mike
At the event I went to, I was told (and everybody that flew Basic well or helped me did it this way) to pull the 5/8 right after rolling to inverted, no delay staying inverted. (this is on the 1/2 reverse cuban 8)The opposite of the sharks tooth for example in last years sequence. Pull up to vertical, pull to 4/5 down line at top then 1/2 way down on 45 degree down line perform the 1/2 roll, trying to make the point where the 1/2 roll is exactly in the middle. This is how they said not to do the 1/2 roll part on the half cuban.
Mike
12-22-2005, 02:49 PM
#79
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RE: Basic
Mike,
If they told you that in a half reverse cuban you start the inside loop immediately after the half roll, they are misinformed. I'll show you where to find this:
Go to the IMAC website (www.mini-iac.com). At the top, click on "Rules" then "Current Rules" in the drop down box. This will give you a page with several PDF documents. The first document is the "2005 Rules" in 8.5" X 11" format. If you go to page 35 you'll see section 8.8.2 which includes reverse half cubans.
In this paragraph it will state that "when the looping portion of the figure is immediately preceeded or followed by a roll or rolls, there must be no visible line between the roll and loop elements. This is the part they read. Unfortunately, it only applies to rolls on a horizontal line.
Further down the paragraph it will tell you that "the rolls on vertical and 45 degree lines must be centered, except for rolls following a spin." This is the part that applies to the half reverse cuban 8.
I would print this out and go through it whenever you have time. It will make you a better flyer and score better (knowing the rules). I would also think about keeping a copy with you when you go to the contests. The CD should have one too.
If there are any judging workshops that you can go to- definitely do. It's called a judging workshop but should probably be called a flying workshop- there is a huge benefit to you as a flyer when you attend.
Hope this helps,
Dave Michael
If they told you that in a half reverse cuban you start the inside loop immediately after the half roll, they are misinformed. I'll show you where to find this:
Go to the IMAC website (www.mini-iac.com). At the top, click on "Rules" then "Current Rules" in the drop down box. This will give you a page with several PDF documents. The first document is the "2005 Rules" in 8.5" X 11" format. If you go to page 35 you'll see section 8.8.2 which includes reverse half cubans.
In this paragraph it will state that "when the looping portion of the figure is immediately preceeded or followed by a roll or rolls, there must be no visible line between the roll and loop elements. This is the part they read. Unfortunately, it only applies to rolls on a horizontal line.
Further down the paragraph it will tell you that "the rolls on vertical and 45 degree lines must be centered, except for rolls following a spin." This is the part that applies to the half reverse cuban 8.
I would print this out and go through it whenever you have time. It will make you a better flyer and score better (knowing the rules). I would also think about keeping a copy with you when you go to the contests. The CD should have one too.
If there are any judging workshops that you can go to- definitely do. It's called a judging workshop but should probably be called a flying workshop- there is a huge benefit to you as a flyer when you attend.
Hope this helps,
Dave Michael
12-22-2005, 03:03 PM
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RE: Basic
i'm too lazy to look at the exact language of the rules, but let's clarify the difference between rolls executed on a line, and rolls that are connected to a radiused figure. let's take a half cuban with a full roll on the entry, and a full roll on the exit. this is not a reverse, which enters on a 45, but a half, which enters horizontal. logically, there is no way to center the roll on the entry because the entry (or exit) is an extended line...that logic is applied across the board, on any figure. so it is connected to the radiused part of the loop, and as dave said, there is no line between them; do the roll, return wings level, pull (or push). immelman and split esses are simply names given to a half loop, half roll, but the same criteria applies - the rolls are connected to the radiused figure, connected meaning that there is no line of unradiused flight.
now, the second roll occurs on the 45 downline, and is not connected to the radiused part of the figure, on what is called an interior line. and ANY roll done on an interior line must be centered on the line. If not, the displacement is downgraded...sometimes severely. (Ask Phaedrus about this issue at Shootout).
as a judge, i am one of the counters, it is an excellent way to measure displacement. and yes, it may be flawed, but overall it works very well. it is especially helpful on simple vertical figures like a hammerhead with a half roll up....the tendency is to go vertical, immediately do the roll, and then draw a long vertical line - the length of which relative to the original roll, determine the downgrade.
P
now, the second roll occurs on the 45 downline, and is not connected to the radiused part of the figure, on what is called an interior line. and ANY roll done on an interior line must be centered on the line. If not, the displacement is downgraded...sometimes severely. (Ask Phaedrus about this issue at Shootout).
as a judge, i am one of the counters, it is an excellent way to measure displacement. and yes, it may be flawed, but overall it works very well. it is especially helpful on simple vertical figures like a hammerhead with a half roll up....the tendency is to go vertical, immediately do the roll, and then draw a long vertical line - the length of which relative to the original roll, determine the downgrade.
P
12-22-2005, 05:36 PM
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RE: Basic
I thank you all for the input. I have printed and read everything and that is why I was doing the maneuver with an extended line on each side of the rolling maneuver. I was baffled by how they said it was to be done (without it) and who am I to tell an event full of pilots, judges etc... how to do them when I had never gone to an IMAC event before?
About the flying seminar, I wish there was one around here as I would go but there isn't and there are not very many people that are even interested in IMAC flying here. There is one that flies in Advanced and I called him, after the weather breaks I will be going to his private field to learn.
I hope he does it with an extended line after the 1/2 roll!!!
Again thanks for your input. Mike
About the flying seminar, I wish there was one around here as I would go but there isn't and there are not very many people that are even interested in IMAC flying here. There is one that flies in Advanced and I called him, after the weather breaks I will be going to his private field to learn.
I hope he does it with an extended line after the 1/2 roll!!!
Again thanks for your input. Mike
12-22-2005, 10:25 PM
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RE: Basic
I suggest that you simply bring a copy of the rulebook with you to the contest. I have heard some amazing assertions about judging at contests, even better than what they told you and they told you a whopper! We all make mistakes when judging, but you should not get hammered by a judge because of blatant ignorance of the rules, especially on the simple fundamental parts. Usually you won't run into something as bad as what you described, but having that rule book with you can only help. Most of the time, the person appreciates getting educated on the rules if you can keep it non-confrontational.
12-23-2005, 02:02 AM
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RE: Basic
In the 2006 Basic Known program it lists numbers next to each figure. Figure 1 has 1.1.1, 9.1.3.4, 2 / 8 and 10. What do these numbers mean?
Also just to make sure I read it correctly, the 2006 Basic looks to me as 1. Roll 2. Humpty Bump (pull pull) 3. Reverse Cuban 8 4. Loop 5. Hammerhead 6. Reverse Shark tooth with 1/2 roll on the up line 7. Figure 9 8. cuban 8 9. Split S 10. 1 1/2 spin. Is this right?
Thanks in advance.
Also just to make sure I read it correctly, the 2006 Basic looks to me as 1. Roll 2. Humpty Bump (pull pull) 3. Reverse Cuban 8 4. Loop 5. Hammerhead 6. Reverse Shark tooth with 1/2 roll on the up line 7. Figure 9 8. cuban 8 9. Split S 10. 1 1/2 spin. Is this right?
Thanks in advance.
12-23-2005, 07:46 AM
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RE: Basic
1.1.1 is the Aresti Family code for the line that the roll is placed on and 9.1.3.4 is the Aresti Family code for the roll. The 2 in the next column to the right is the K factor for the line element, the 8 in that column is the K factor for the roll element. The 10 in the last column is the combined K factor for the complete figure.
12-23-2005, 12:15 PM
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RE: Basic
Thanks for the info.
Currently I am finishing a plane. I know it is small and light and so isn't a ideal ship for this but is it legal? I have a feeling that since he didn't list it as IMAC legal some of the specs vary by more than 10%.
http://www.stevensaero.com/xcart/pro...cat=249&page=1
Currently I am finishing a plane. I know it is small and light and so isn't a ideal ship for this but is it legal? I have a feeling that since he didn't list it as IMAC legal some of the specs vary by more than 10%.
http://www.stevensaero.com/xcart/pro...cat=249&page=1
12-23-2005, 02:49 PM
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RE: Basic
Bob S.
If you are flying in Basic you can fly a P-51 if you want. At an event I went to last year a guy was flying a profile Edge full blown 3-D plane. and he was legal, didn't do very good but was legal.
PS It wasn't the planes fault he didn't do very good, but he had fun!
Mike
If you are flying in Basic you can fly a P-51 if you want. At an event I went to last year a guy was flying a profile Edge full blown 3-D plane. and he was legal, didn't do very good but was legal.
PS It wasn't the planes fault he didn't do very good, but he had fun!
Mike
12-24-2005, 12:03 AM
#90
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RE: Basic
Please let me know if I read this right..........
not very good at Aresti.......using my stick plane I chose the directions I wish to roll for now.....may change them later. I like to have both aresti and words written down side by side incase I get a caller that isn't very good at Aresti.....also I can put notes I wish the caller to say in the words. (Use that for pattern flying)
not very good at Aresti.......using my stick plane I chose the directions I wish to roll for now.....may change them later. I like to have both aresti and words written down side by side incase I get a caller that isn't very good at Aresti.....also I can put notes I wish the caller to say in the words. (Use that for pattern flying)
12-24-2005, 02:29 AM
#92
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RE: Basic
ORIGINAL: ki0qm
Thanks for the info.
Currently I am finishing a plane. I know it is small and light and so isn't a ideal ship for this but is it legal? I have a feeling that since he didn't list it as IMAC legal some of the specs vary by more than 10%.
http://www.stevensaero.com/xcart/pro...cat=249&page=1
Thanks for the info.
Currently I am finishing a plane. I know it is small and light and so isn't a ideal ship for this but is it legal? I have a feeling that since he didn't list it as IMAC legal some of the specs vary by more than 10%.
http://www.stevensaero.com/xcart/pro...cat=249&page=1
12-24-2005, 02:55 AM
#93
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RE: Basic
Since none of the roll directions on this sequence have any consequence, I would suggest that you leave the direction out entirely. When you are flying, you most likely favor one roll direction to another. You might do better to just go with what you do naturally and leave the excess words out. The more you have to listen to, the harder it can be to concentrate on things like wind correction etc.
One other suggestion is on the spin, have your caller directions say "exit upright" instead of "end going left" (or right). One of the most common mistakes in a spin, after the entry point, is to over rotate the number of turns. If you do the correct number of turns and then only focus on exiting upright, you will be headed in the correct direction when you recover, every time. It can be more confusing to sort out flight directions than doing what tends to come naturally, i.e., recover upright when headed straight at the ground. I only suggest these things because they may help lighten your overall workload and allow you to concentrate on flying more.
One other suggestion is on the spin, have your caller directions say "exit upright" instead of "end going left" (or right). One of the most common mistakes in a spin, after the entry point, is to over rotate the number of turns. If you do the correct number of turns and then only focus on exiting upright, you will be headed in the correct direction when you recover, every time. It can be more confusing to sort out flight directions than doing what tends to come naturally, i.e., recover upright when headed straight at the ground. I only suggest these things because they may help lighten your overall workload and allow you to concentrate on flying more.
12-24-2005, 03:11 AM
#94
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RE: Basic
Thanks for the pointers.......I just put in wording I liked from when I flew pattern last year. I found that in the beginning I like directions of turns.....also on windy days I like directions.......that's just me though. I'm sure once I get better and more comfortable with the sequence I won't need it.
12-27-2005, 11:49 AM
#95
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RE: Basic
I've been fighting that engine/pump for a month; finally got it sorted (I THINK), and had a full day of practice yesterday with MY plane. Somewhat of a let-down, after flying my pal's WH Extra/Brison3.2... looks like I'll be going gas sooner than I had planned to.
Well, at least I have somewhat of a clue for the Boot Camp in two weeks. But I was flat worn out yesterday evening. I haven't expended this much mental effort at flying since I learned helicopters 13 years ago. This is WORK!
But interesting and challenging.
Well, at least I have somewhat of a clue for the Boot Camp in two weeks. But I was flat worn out yesterday evening. I haven't expended this much mental effort at flying since I learned helicopters 13 years ago. This is WORK!
But interesting and challenging.
12-27-2005, 03:30 PM
#97
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RE: Basic
Good question; and it may not be fixed.
As you know, I have about had enough of this thing. Your suggestion of the third line, and Dick's talking about the general unsuitability of fuelers, led me to violate the Prime Rule of Troubleshooting; IOW, only change one thing at a time.
I had a sufficient case of the reds to know that if the next attempt failed, I was going to bag the whole thing; so I did FOUR "mods":
1. Yanked the SlimLine fueler and replaced it with a fuel dot
2. Plumbed a third line and made the feed line a straight shot to the pump, per our conversation
3. Fixed the sloppy throttle linkage
4. Used "straight" Cool Power 15%, instead of the extra castor blend that was gumming the engine up in this cold weather
Oh, five mods. I changed to an APC 18x6W prop.
The engine ran great yesterday for six flights It is still hanging lean when going to idle after some minutes at advanced power settings, but I have given up on fixing that and just pay more attention when I'm landing. The excellent handling characteristics of the airplane make that easy to do.
But the last flight, it choked a few times when I applied full power for uplines. I'm hoping it is simply a matter of the extra clunk screwing things up; I'll check that tonight.
As you know, I have about had enough of this thing. Your suggestion of the third line, and Dick's talking about the general unsuitability of fuelers, led me to violate the Prime Rule of Troubleshooting; IOW, only change one thing at a time.
I had a sufficient case of the reds to know that if the next attempt failed, I was going to bag the whole thing; so I did FOUR "mods":
1. Yanked the SlimLine fueler and replaced it with a fuel dot
2. Plumbed a third line and made the feed line a straight shot to the pump, per our conversation
3. Fixed the sloppy throttle linkage
4. Used "straight" Cool Power 15%, instead of the extra castor blend that was gumming the engine up in this cold weather
Oh, five mods. I changed to an APC 18x6W prop.
The engine ran great yesterday for six flights It is still hanging lean when going to idle after some minutes at advanced power settings, but I have given up on fixing that and just pay more attention when I'm landing. The excellent handling characteristics of the airplane make that easy to do.
But the last flight, it choked a few times when I applied full power for uplines. I'm hoping it is simply a matter of the extra clunk screwing things up; I'll check that tonight.
12-28-2005, 12:39 AM
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RE: Basic
ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2
The 45 line should be exactly bisected by the 1/2 roll. The judge should look for the beginning of the upright 45 line (at the end of the starting radius for the maneuver), then note the distance from there to where the roll occurs. To be really exact, it's the distance to the middle of the roll (at 90 deg)
The 45 line should be exactly bisected by the 1/2 roll. The judge should look for the beginning of the upright 45 line (at the end of the starting radius for the maneuver), then note the distance from there to where the roll occurs. To be really exact, it's the distance to the middle of the roll (at 90 deg)
For instance, consider a 45 upline with an 8-point roll, opposite 1/2 snap roll. You DO NOT worry about where the center of that roll element is, all you do is make sure that the line before it and after it match exactly.