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Sims for IMAC practice...

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Old 12-06-2005, 09:53 PM
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LSP972
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Default Sims for IMAC practice...

Any of you use a simulator for practicing the sequences? I was against it at first, but am now having second thoughts.

I would like to hear your reasons for/against this, and if you do it, what sim did you choose and why?

Before anyone suggests I go the sim forum, did that already. Lots of arguments about whose is bigger. The one guy who seems to have a grip on reality there doesn't fly IMAC, naturally.

Anyway, I'd appreciate your thoughts...
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Old 12-07-2005, 12:53 AM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

There is a scenery add-on available for AFPD that makes it a little more practical to use the sim for sequence practice. It's an enhancement to the Farmland scenery and it traces a box that is adjustable for depth etc. It puts up 45 degree lines and a 'loop' in the center. It has top and bottom lines, with a center altitude line also in the horizontal plane. There are vertical lines at the box ends and in the center and that's about it. Think of it as a 2D frame only, i.e., there's nothing to help with cross box depth. I found it is useful when first memorizing a sequence, just for the sheer mechanical exercise of going through it. Also helps if you want to throw in some severe cross wind scenarios to work on technique for maintaining wind correction angles through radiuses etc. Other than that, I don't think you can get too much else out of it. You have the classic problem of not being able to really see where you're at relative to the scenery, how high it is in verticals if they get even slightly tall etc. It's better than nothing if you're snowed in anyway.
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:13 AM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

I use the farmland box too... how do you adjust size and add a loop???
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:24 AM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2

There is a scenery add-on available for AFPD that makes it a little more practical to use the sim for sequence practice. It's an enhancement to the Farmland scenery and it traces a box that is adjustable for depth etc. It puts up 45 degree lines and a 'loop' in the center. It has top and bottom lines, with a center altitude line also in the horizontal plane. There are vertical lines at the box ends and in the center and that's about it. Think of it as a 2D frame only, i.e., there's nothing to help with cross box depth. I found it is useful when first memorizing a sequence, just for the sheer mechanical exercise of going through it. Also helps if you want to throw in some severe cross wind scenarios to work on technique for maintaining wind correction angles through radiuses etc. Other than that, I don't think you can get too much else out of it. You have the classic problem of not being able to really see where you're at relative to the scenery, how high it is in verticals if they get even slightly tall etc. It's better than nothing if you're snowed in anyway.
Me three...I also turn on tracing also to help see how straight my lines are, are my starting and end points the same, my loops are round, etc...I does help as far as I am concerned
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:58 AM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

Other than seeing what the sequence is roughly going to look like, I don't use them for sequence practice. My plane has its own handling characteristics and quirks, and I'd rather practice the maneuvers with the same machine that is going to be used in competition.
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Old 12-07-2005, 04:40 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...


ORIGINAL: Flyfalcons

...and I'd rather practice the maneuvers with the same machine that is going to be used in competition.
So would I; but I'm lucky to get out to the field three times a month. Less now, with "winter" here.

Sounds like AFPD might be the one. A buddy has an XTR he got for helis; he's never tried the planes on it. I have a 7C lying around mainly unused, so we're going to mate them up on my computer (I have a much better video card) tonight and see what happens.
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Old 12-07-2005, 06:12 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

To adjust the settings, you can follow the directions from the readme.txt file that is available with the download at www.rodeo.onlinehome.de There's tons of other nifty stuff there, take a look! I haven't been there in a while and it looks like they've busy with lots of new models and some other scenery add-ons.

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Old 12-07-2005, 07:07 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

Yikes... I just had an older version, no circle or lines... I like it!!
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Old 12-07-2005, 09:54 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

Hmmm... this Hobbico Reflex is not bad at all.

Hobbico??? ***??? Isn't that, like, in direct competition with Real Fright?

Anyway... as noted by others, and as I expected from my limited experience with older sims back in the day, you have no horizon reference so placing the manuever properly just ain't happening with this sim. BUT... for a complete novice striving to learn the manuevers well enough to fly through them without having to THINK about it... well, this thing has some value.

The above-described "box" in AFPD may be just the ticket for helping with placement. Upper management is visiting her mother in Scotland right now, but the first thing she'll hear on the ride home from the airport is how this sim can save $$$.

Think she'll swallow that???
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:41 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

That last sentence might lead to some funny jokes here. But yeah, a sim certainly wouldn't hurt your flying skills.
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Old 12-09-2005, 01:12 AM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

i have always noticed that flying precision anything on any sim including full scale is a pain; however when I go back to the real thing it feels sooo easy. That being said I will still feel lucky if i can fly myself out of a paperbag come contest time. I plan on hitting the AFP pretty hard this winter to get ready for next year. Hey flyfalcons how are the falcon sim's, I bet they are tweaked really nice.
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Old 12-09-2005, 10:52 AM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

Hey Steve - you can get the "old" version- AFP (dropped the D) for $99 ... it still is an excellent sim if you don't want to spring for the whole package.

I have owned AFPD, AFP, G3, and XTR (Reflex) I kept AFPD. I feel that AFP/ AFPD does the best job at least approaching the real deal. It has helped me tremendously in 3D and even some in IMAC developing my reflexes and responses to wind, exits from sequences, etc.

I picked up an old beater JR transmitter in the marketplace for $35.. works perfectly as a controller so I don't have to wear out my 10X...

DP


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Old 12-09-2005, 11:45 AM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

That's true, the 'old' AFP works very well. 90% of the motivation for me getting the upgrade to AFPD was to take advantage of the farmland pattern box grid, plus the other add-ons that are being developed. Most of these are for AFPD, not AFP, so that's a consideration too.
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Old 12-09-2005, 02:35 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...


ORIGINAL: desertpig

Hey Steve - you can get the "old" version- AFP (dropped the D) for $99 ... it still is an excellent sim if you don't want to spring for the whole package.
I picked up an old beater JR transmitter in the marketplace for $35.. works perfectly as a controller so I don't have to wear out my 10X...
I have no interest in 3D. What's your opinion of the older AFP for IMAC practice? Does it have enough "goodies" (adjustable parameters, etc.) to tweak a plane close to the idiosyncrasies of my big one?I have a 7C to use, ditto not wearing out my 9Z.

Also, my four year old #2 grandson is showing an interest, so he would use it too.
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:15 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

As a user, you have pretty much the same capabilities to tweak airplane parameters with the older or newer Aerofly simulator. My point is that if you are interested in taking advantage of things like the add-on pattern / sequence grid, you can't use it with AFP, only AFPD (the new one). Likewise, you aren't going to see much in the way of new development from 3rd party "shareware" types for AFP, but you will for AFPD. Therefore, it is likely that more and better Scale Aerobatics type add-on models suitable for sequence work will become available for free for AFPD. For my money, it's worth getting the new version so that you don't get left behind. You can always upgrade if you do choose the older version, however, you will have to send in your software and adapter to get the upgrade, so you will experience some downtime during the upgrade.

Besides all this, it's just a simulator, though a very good one. At the end of the day, it's usefulness in really practicing sequence work is limited. It's never going to be the same experience. For example, I find it's really good for keeping the rust off during the winter and for developing "muscle memory" for complex stuff like rolling circles or even for holding altitude and line in slow rolls, where the rudder/elevator integration work is a key skill. Throw in cross wind components and try to make those things work and you will increase your skills, but hoping that the model will fly just like being at the field is probbaly going to lead to some disapointment.
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Old 12-09-2005, 04:30 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...


ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2

For example, I find it's really good for keeping the rust off during the winter and for developing "muscle memory" for complex stuff like rolling circles or even for holding altitude and line in slow rolls, where the rudder/elevator integration work is a key skill. Throw in cross wind components and try to make those things work and you will increase your skills, but hoping that the model will fly just like being at the field is probbaly going to lead to some disapointment.
I'm not that naive. I realize it isn't really even close to the same thing. The first part of your quoted remarks is what I want the thing for, anyway.

And thanks for the reality check regarding going cheap. I know better. If I can get management approval this close to Xmas, AFPD it is... Figures that I blew through my stash bucks outfitting the Extra. Usually I have a few quid rat-holed for surprise needs like this, but those good Futaba digitals be 'pensive.

Oh, well...
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:05 AM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

Hey guys where do I go to get this FARMLAND SCENERY?????
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Old 12-12-2005, 08:07 AM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

http://rodeo.onlinehome.de/

There are several versions on this site, grab the latest one from the 2005-03-30 update. This is freeware and they ask you to accept an EULA to dowload all the freebies.

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Old 12-16-2005, 01:01 AM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

Hey Guys, just tried the farmland scenery. It is great, it gives you a point of reference without having to see the ground. You can flight straight lines. If you don't have it buy AFPD.
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Old 12-16-2005, 12:10 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

Just tried the Farmland Grid for the first time. This is great!!! I really like the circle and the 45° lines!!!

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Old 12-17-2005, 10:24 AM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

The new Farmland Scenery looks good. This is the same concept I have used for both IAC and IMAC practice for decades. I have a box form I built out of 2x4's. This has a clear plexiglass cover with vertical, 45deg and horizontal lines. I place a video camera on a small ground stand and shoot up through the frame. It's like looing through a window. The displacement is such that the frame represents box boundries. I can then view my video sequences to see what needs work.

By the way, I own all three major sims and while I have modeled and tweaked planes in G3 to fly VERY close to my competition airplanes and fly G3 more than the other sims, I have always liked the "ribbon" in AFP/AFPD. I also record my sim flight sequences and review heading, altitude, airspeed, etc. to ensure proper flight path during the sequences. While I absolutley agree that there is no substitute for burning fuel - some of us in WINTER have no other choice. Living in the North Central region for IMAC, our first competitions are scheduled just after the snow stops flying and some years you have little chance to even get a dozen trim flights in before packing up a road trip. When I SIM fly, I always get a wind speed and direction reading and fly what is going on outside.

I also caution on treating a "practice" flight with the same mindset as a real flight. Sims are great for those folks who want to learn without crashing $$$$. However, you cannot imagine the number of folks at my club that call themselves 3D pilots but never seem to 3D at the field with a real airplane. A 30 sec sim flight to a crash/reset/repeat is not flying. I treat sim flight just like real life (re-kitting an airplane is never an option). While in the 'groove' I have actually got that momentary Oh - S*%t feeling when coming close to puting in a SIM plane and making a last minute save because either my brain or my thumbs did something stupid. In sim flying for FUN - have fun, but when using it for a educational or practice tool, use it as any other tools in your workshop.
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Old 12-17-2005, 03:32 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

I agree, with the sim one can get lazy. Crashing on the sim can lead to crashing in real life.
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Old 12-17-2005, 05:51 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

ORIGINAL: flynm

I agree, with the sim one can get lazy. Crashing on the sim can lead to crashing in real life.
It can, but for me it does not. I crash much more often on the sim than I like(learning 3D down low). This is because I fly much more aggressively on the sim forcing myself to higher levels. I also add weight to planes(15 to 20 pounds to the fuse on a 40%er) and crank up the sim speed(140-180) so that the sim planes are more difficult to 3D than my real planes(my 21-25%ers). This has helped me out immensely in learning 3D.

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Old 12-17-2005, 06:14 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

STG

Can you better explain what you gain by Sim speed % increase? While I agree that many of the planes for ALL of the Sims have to much !QUOT!float!QUOT!, I don't understand what Sim speed gains you. Does it make things faster so in real life things don't seem rushed? I find that many 3D figures are a timing thing - as a musician, rhythm is everything. Get out of sync on an eye-level high alpha roller and your brain has to really engage - sometimes getting in the way of your fingers. I would find a change in that timing disruptive. Perhaps you can convince me otherwise.
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Old 12-26-2005, 01:49 PM
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Default RE: Sims for IMAC practice...

I have just placed my order for the AFPD from Hobby Lobby. I have never owned a sim before and I have only played with one for a couple of hours at a friends house (Real flight). I have lost my patience this year waiting for winter to be over, it's even too damn cold to fly foamies outside!

my hopes are to just keep the thumbs loose and try out some of the new manuever combinations for '06. can someone tell me how to download the farmland scenery and IMAC box as mentioned above? are there any suitable planes in the software for sequence practice or do I need to download one from somebody? how does one go about doing that?

The package should arrive in a couple of days and I'm excited to try this out. I will keep you all posted on my own experiences with this simulator

thanks for the info

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