Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Hello Wings:
You also may want to call up the CD for any contest that you are thinking of travelling to. I am sure you will find out that some CDs will not be doing sound checks. Randy has already let us know that he will be enforcing the sound rules. Other CDs plan to do it differently.

Randy-RCU

This is not a sugestion rule..this IS A RULE

with who don't no do so are breaking the Rules

Randy

3DRC

My Feedback: (3)

Actually Randy it is debatable as to whether or not it is a rule. IMAC can make a suggestion but it is not really a rule.

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Rules. Actually it will be a deviation from the rules, just like a 180 degree box. And the CDs can give advance notice in their ads and flyers. I have noticed on the Imac website that there are plenty of contests listed in certain regions of the US that have listed that they will not be checking sound. I have also noticed that in other regions, every contest will be checking sound. Could it be the work of the regional directors? Hmmmm.

3DRC

My Feedback: (3)

THe CDs will have huge control over what happens in the regions. THey can only count scores from noise controled contests towards regional points for example.... We also need to realize that even at the root of this, it is a regional issue. The West coast mentality even outlaws wind chimes in some sub-divisions due to the agrevating sound that they make.... Get real!

Down here in the South East we are a good bit more open minded.

Bean

Mike Wiz

My Feedback: (2)

Randy,

What's that plane next to you in the picture?

Wiz

Divesplat

My Feedback: (7)

The interesting thing about this particular discussion is most people are unwilling to compromise on their particular opinion. The STF has tried to find a compromise that will eliminate the noise complaints and make it possible to meet the rules without extravagent cost or change to the aircraft initially(2002) They have also gone way beyond the call of duty to publish information applicable to the noise issue. It should be noted the STF did it's own studies and measurements to arrive at, I believe, a workable solution. Realize the guys on this panel I know are 1) long standing airline pilot, 2) Respected Aeronautical Engineer, and 3) Long time Pattern and IMAC pilot. Wally Pitts, George Hicks and Dave Von Linsowe. I have found simply by using a 3 bladed prop, will substantially quiet a large plane.

It seems, those opposed, want to do nothing or discount the work put forth by the STF. Not a flame here, just an observation. Those that comply are almost looked at as the bad guys, because they support or want to fly with this requirement.

As far as rules go, both Randy and Diablo are correct. According to AMA rules, if the sanction, submitted by the CD, lists the Rules changes, then so be it, and this is all good. Once a rules change has gone through the AMA procedures, then it is every CD's responsibility to either follow the rules, as published, or to make the notice with the sanction.

This is not to say every Pattern contest has a scale and dB meter, because only 1 local meet I know of measures sound. And haven't been to one with a scale. Personally believe once all the hub-bub is over and overall quieter IMAC planes are around and more the standard than exception, this will occur also. But may take 3-5 years.

In the SC Region, if a CD doesn't follow the noise rules, the results of this contest will not be included in the IMAC Regional Championship Points. This is only fair, as these are the IMAC rules now.

I have already complied, and look forward to a very fun summer of competing and trying to fly respectable aerobatics.
To Wings, you might consider e-mailing one of the STF guys with your engine, prop and muffler set-up and see what they predict the sound to be. I love to compete, but also value the friendships I have made the last 4 years. Changing the prop is well worth the experience, if needed. You might also call Don at Don's Hobby Shop in Salina, he may be able to help.

Ed

can773

My Feedback: (1)

Very true, once the rules are in place and everyone is complying there will be no need to check on a regular basis, and most likely if a beginner wants to try it on a noisier set up he will be allowed to becuase everyone knows if he gets hooked he will have to quiet down like the rest. I know of no one who failed the noise limit in Ireland at the 2001 F3A worlds, and this was after a 2 db reduction in the limit from Florida '99. Once it is established it will be of little concern.

Wings-RCU

My Feedback: (2)

Davesplat,
Thanks for your comments and encouragement to try IMAC. You gave me some Ideas to try before showing up at a meet. I really don't have anything against the IMAC rules to limit sound.

I just believe that the blanket sound issues are not as importaint as other issues in the growth of IMAC. IMAC need to make sure they don't go down the "pattern" road by restricting competition to such a degree to halt the growth of IMAC.

From the outside looking in, I wonder:
Why are there are any classes at all if anyone or any plane can fly in any class? The people and planes you compete against should divide classes, like any other competition, and not the patterns you will be flying.

Why is freestyle limited to only the top class? I bet even the sportsman & basic fliers are doing an awful lot of "freestyle" when they're not at a meet. Does IMAC think that the expert class pilots are safer because they have put more time into practicing patterns? It seems that the freestyle is what everyone likes to watch. IMAC should be encouraging more of this.

It occurs to me that a modification to these rules would have a much greater impact on the growth - or lack of - than the sound rules in an attempt to limit the loss of some of our fields.

3DRC

My Feedback: (3)

Ed,

I have great appreciation for the STF and the tireless efforts that they committed to the hobby. I also have been a supporter of eliminating the ripping props from the outset of the STF task force. My concern, as others ar concerned, lies in the way the noise regs were brought to the membership. It was over before there was any envolvement from the general membership. Many of us have strong feelings relating to the "bonus points" for quiet. The regs also have taken the noise levels well beyond what had ever been discussed in the general membership. The levels address noise levels well beyond those ripping props.

I, and others, do not have issue with the STF as much as the BoD and the "open wide" force that the regs were placed on the membership with. It is not a sign of the desires of the membership at large.

Bean

bvmjethead

My Feedback: (10)

Randy,

You sound like some of the people at the Deland club. :-)

As someone stated earlier, there are many ways of getting around, under, over or through rules. ATV on the throttle being one.........Lighten up. Let the people who have to worry about sound worry about it but dont make a blanket "rule" which everybody "has" to follow just because some of you live in the burbs next to idiots who will run their weed eater at 7am on a Saturday and then ***** about your BME 102 a mile away.

I for one fly on a Naval auxillary landing field in south eastern Virginia. F-18 and F-14's do touch and goes there all day long on the weekdays and some weekends, I seriously doubt the neighbors care if I'm at 96 or even 196 db's.

No flames, just think about what rules do to people before you make them.

Scott

can773

My Feedback: (1)

So I can speed on our many wide open roads that have very little traffic because it is unlikely to affect anyone?? Is that your logic? There is no point to a rule unless it applies to everyone fairly. Suck it up, meet the limit, this is a hobby and will not likely cause you any real problems in life by following a simple rule.


To Wings:

How is pattern restricting competition? From where I stand it is alive and well and drawing in more people than IMAC is.

bvmjethead

My Feedback: (10)

Who said anything about speeding?

Nevermind, I already feel like banging my head into a brick wall like a thousand times!

I don't even want to explain myself, cuz if you did not understand my clearly stated point it's just not worth my time to debate.

Thank God in Heaven there are places I can still fly where I do not have to worry about conforming to somebody elses idea of my good time.

Scott

3DRC

My Feedback: (3)

Scott, I fly on Navy Aux fields here also. We are blessed!

Chad, the speed analogy should relate to just banning GS planes all together. That is a safety issue not a noise issue. Noise is relative and subjective. The AMA has already stated on vrious occations that the noise issue is local or regional and that htey had no intention on addressing it on a national level. For some reason the IMAC BoD has developed a fear of some party getting noise regs. I would gather that it goes to the Nats noise. It is a good idea but the BoD went too far on the current regs.

Just my opinion. But then that has no value to the BoD. Nor does any other person's opinion. They had too little respect for the membership to cast the issue to a vote.

Divesplat

My Feedback: (7)

We also get to fly on a closed AFB here in Lubbock, Reece AFB. This was a training base for T-37 and T-38's. Amazingly, we have had 2 complaints about noise from people living probably 3/4-1 mile away from where we flew, at the time. These complaints weren't about loud noise, per se, but more the noise from buzzing around.

I occurs to me comparing the noise from our hobby to mowing the grass or weedeating is inconsequential. Perception is Reality, as it has been said. Most people tolerate what they consider nesessity(mowing, police and fire sirens etc.) However, they consider our hobby as toys and therefor annoying. So while the noise from the AF was loud it was tolerable, for the greater good, but considerable less noise from our Hobby, is in their ears, much less tolerable.

Pattern is alive and well as I fly both. Pattern is not exclusive as someone mentioned and a full bore pattern plane will run you $2500 kit to finish, but a 33% Edge will run you $4000 kit to finish.
The noise issue is Not That Difficult to control in a 40% size plane. Cannisters are only $200 more than cans, and increase power. Most pilots trying IMAC for the first time probably have a plane that already meets the noise limits. Just a hunch here, no real data but a CGExtra just isn't that loud, neither are Moki' YS's, OS etc.

As my original post stated, this still comes to willingness to compete. Some will comply, some will complain and comply, some will not comply, some will complain and not comply.

Ed

Divesplat

My Feedback: (7)

Hey Wings.

Freestyle is a seperate contest and at every contest I have been open to anyone. Don't even have to fly in the IMAC contest to compete in the Freestyle. What happens is the big names are soooooooo good, most opt not to fly free against them.

As far as the classes go, theoretically, you are flying against the other pilot. A 40% plane won't make anyone win, if they fail to use their rudder or don't have the skills to fly the specific manuevers. Realistically, a bigger plane is both a benefit and a hinderence. First bigger flies better, more stable, etc. Second, mistakes show up easier. but everyone is still testing their skills against the wind, sky and airframe. A friend of mine says he isn't flying agianst other pilots, but against his ability to do his best, against mother nature(wind, no wind, gusts, etc.) This attitude has allowed him to excell and have a ton of fun.

Just some thoughts. Are FHSU and ESU still in the same league??Grad from FHSU in 85.

ed

Divesplat

My Feedback: (7)

Hey Bean, good comments but think about something. Noise issues have been around the past 1.5 years and have been commented on in the IMAC mag. Of course, most pilots I know, blew these comments and requests to quiet the props off with no attempt whatsoever to improve noise. The attitude, and I'm guilty also, why should I sacrifice power with a 3 blade prop when XY and Z aren't trying to be more quiet, so fly the 2 blade prop also.

This hit a peak of concern at the Nats, which I was at. Pylon racing and control line speed and combat are noisy propositions, but had gone on for a # of years, my understanding without complaint. IMAC however, with not loud but BARKING props and flying over or very near private property caused the first complaints at Muncie. Can't verify the previous complaints but can state some props were horrible. Billy Hemple was probably the quietest 40% there with a 3 blade prop. I was going to fly a 3 blade but had a problem on practice day and changed my mind. So much for history, my point is that suggestions, recommendations etc have been made, only to be ignored. At 25 Ft I don't think the sound levels will be hard to meet.

As far as membership, the general membership doesn't want dashboards or pilots either, but it is still in the rules, sadly, only occasionaly enforced. Personally believe once the season gets underway, and particularly the JR Challenge down in Fl we'll see a more positive outlook towards the sound issue. This is my hopes at least. Time will tell.

Ed

Randy-RCU

Deviations are ment to be used over Saftey issues and neighbor problems

Randy


QUOTE]Originally posted by Diablo
Rules. Actually it will be a deviation from the rules, just like a 180 degree box. And the CDs can give advance notice in their ads and flyers. I have noticed on the Imac website that there are plenty of contests listed in certain regions of the US that have listed that they will not be checking sound. I have also noticed that in other regions, every contest will be checking sound. Could it be the work of the regional directors? Hmmmm. [/QUOTE]

Randy-RCU

40% Carden Aircraft Cap 232
DA 150
Stylus Radio
358's on ail/elev
Multiplex Jumbos on rudder

that enough Wiz

Randy

bvmjethead

My Feedback: (10)

This is another one of those rules where I have to sit back and say why. What productive purpose does this serve?

Scott

Phil Cole

IMAC is about scale models. If you don't bother with the scale part of it, you end up with a pattern plane.

Mike Wiz

My Feedback: (2)

WOW Randy..... that's a big jump from your previous plane! How long have you been flying that beauty?

Just to keep thinks on topic, I have an H9 Cap with a ZDZ 80. I have a big tuned can stuffed into the fuse to keep it quiet and I intend on using an MSC 25x10 prop to keep things even more quiet.

People say things like most IMAC members don't want quiet planes....don't want dashboards.....don't want pilots. I humbly disagree. The silent majority of Scale Aerobatic pilots want all those things. It's just that the few that don't are very loud about it.

Wiz

3DRC

My Feedback: (3)

Well.....

I had the opportunity to see/listen to a 3W 100 on a set of tuned pipes last weekend. THe plane seemed to fly OK, the mid range was a bit weak but... it sounded like a bad case of fairy gas.

It just doesn't have that big mutha' sound that a GS plane should!

can773

My Feedback: (1)

Mmmmm,

Is that the same irritating sound that those rice rockets with their big coffee cans for mufflers make??? Now there is a form of noise pollution we could all live without.

Chris 540

My Feedback: (3)

Good one!!