IMAC Discuss IMAC style aerobatics in here

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Old 02-06-2003, 12:17 PM
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rmh
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If'n you were wish'n--for a Ultimate bipe -which you could easily build for a 80-100 cc engine , just how big do you really think it should be? (Total wing area)
how much do you think it should really weigh? ready to fly
and again if'n-- that same bipe were for a 150/160 class engine?
Not a larger engine.
This would be a model for absolutely unlimited performance - not an entry level.
The reason I am asking , is that I see plenty of intrest in these models but little mention of what the parameters should be for best performance.
I have my views -but what are yours?
serious answers only -please.
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Old 02-06-2003, 02:45 PM
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a 1/4 scale has around 1200 in
and a 42%+ has around 3000

so hum should i guess from here.
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Old 02-06-2003, 11:18 PM
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Default Wishing along the same lines

I have the Ohio RC 75" which does well with the 80cc. I plan to use a BME-102 which has the narrowest plug to plug distance and will fit in the cowl. The old 3W80 would fit in the cowl (with very little to spare) however the 100 won't without the plugs extending from the cowl. The BME will give unlimited vertical.

G&L Hobbies has an interesting 84-1/2" version. See the following link http://www.glhobbies.com/biplane/bip.htm
which is expected to come in from 25 to 30 lbs (this seems to be quite a range of weight). With a 100 cc and 25 lbs it should be very nice. With a 120 and 30 lbs it might not be so nice. If anyone has built one of this manufacturer's kits I would like your input as to how the kit builds and flies.

Now for my serious answer: I have toyed with the idea of designing my own for the 100 cc engines as there are quite a few very nice choices available. Why design my own with the above possibilities? To allow all the tuned exhausts and related equipment needed for IMAC competition to be included as the plane is built. 80 to 82 inches is the target span. The current rules allow the cowl to be widened to allow the engine to be totally enclosed, cooled and quieted. I don't have any answers for the 150 cc myself but would look at what Mike McConnville did for the version coming from Hanger 9 that was designed for this size engine.
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Old 02-07-2003, 12:12 AM
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Thanks for the input - I am familiar with both of those bipes as well as the Aeroworks example -
BTW- the bipes I did for 1990 TOC Steve Rojecki flew them - 2nd place - were 16and a 1/2 lbs - almost 1800 squares --
Our target wing loading for these new models is in the mid twenties oz /sq ft.
actually about 23 oz ft for the 100 size.
The TOC bipe Chip used was perhaps , closer to 27 oz ft
The one that GL has ranges from 24 -29 oz ft -
The one I am currently flying is at 21.7 .
The low to mid twenties seeme to give the best performance.
much lower than most of the monoplanes that size - which typically are at or over 30 .
I am keen on seening if this is about what others feel is the correct ballpark.
Thanks again.
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Old 02-07-2003, 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by dick Hanson
Thanks for the input - I am familiar with both of those bipes as well as the Aeroworks example -
BTW- the bipes I did for 1990 TOC Steve Rojecki flew them - 2nd place - were 16and a 1/2 lbs - almost 1800 squares --
Our target wing loading for these new models is in the mid twenties oz /sq ft.
actually about 23 oz ft for the 100 size.
The TOC bipe Chip used was perhaps , closer to 27 oz ft
The one that GL has ranges from 24 -29 oz ft -
The one I am currently flying is at 21.7 .
The low to mid twenties seeme to give the best performance.
much lower than most of the monoplanes that size - which typically are at or over 30 .
I am keen on seening if this is about what others feel is the correct ballpark.
Thanks again.
Dick,
You mention the GL at wing loadings I guessed in my first reply. With 100 cc class engine and wing loading 24 oz ft it should be a good flying machine. At the lower end of the loading/weight range this would make me cautious with this offering since it would be very easy to approach the mid to upper range. Which plane are you flying that has 21.7 loading?
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Old 02-07-2003, 12:16 PM
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Bucker Jungmann Supermann.
This is a clipped wing version of the full scale machine one owned by Jim Moser - (dec), out of AeroSport - in Florida -
Actually a great bipe - probably the best of the lot - but it is a more difficult project than the Ultimates -and has a more classic -than modern appearance.
We also made up two big ones for Dave Patrick - a few years back - much larger -in the 3000 sq in class- he did a beautiful job on them -but power was wanting - simply not enough engine available at the time -these things really suck up power --
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Old 03-14-2003, 01:15 PM
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Mr. HANSON:

I would like to know your thoughts on "CONCHEN" 25% ULTIMATE. Have you ever seen one of these fly? Maybe you know someone who has built or flown this kit? I'am not much of a kit builder but I think I could manage to take this on as a ( this year project.) I fly ARF's but I have a real desire to own a ULTIMATE for my TAURUS 3.2 The specs on this model are 62 in wingspan @ 1260 sq in. 62 in fuselage and is rated for 45cc gas engine. This size aircraft would allow me to transport without a trailer or large van. Also I can afford this size aircraft and related equipment I would have a difficult time footing the bill on 33% or 44% planes. I haven't been able to find any threads on this model. So maybe you can help!

THANK YOU.
AJT.
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Old 03-14-2003, 09:21 PM
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I love Ultimate Biplanes. I think there would be a good market for an Ultimate in the new 50cc and 80cc classes. I know I would be interested.
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Old 03-14-2003, 09:45 PM
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Flyer

I couldn't agree with you more!!!!

AJT ;^)
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Old 03-15-2003, 12:41 AM
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I e-mailed Chip Hyde are few weeks ago and he said he was in the manufacturing stage of a couple of smaller Ultimates and that he has designed a pattern Ultimate. A friend at my field (Dave Vilwock-Miss Budweiser driver) has one of the Pattern models on order. I can't wait to see his.
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Old 03-15-2003, 02:27 AM
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Iam making my own -using the two place Ultimate as the guide-
Having already worked out the parameters for power and weight , I am anxious to get building the newest ones - My Bucker at 21 oz ft is very good and that is my standard to work against-
so far the ARFS I have seen -in smaller models are too heavy-BTW-
I just got a new ZDZ 60 - which I tweaked - for my Bucker - It will be using a 70x400 mm JMB can which fits easily above the lower wing.
I fitted a 80 carb and backplate to the engine - very responsive!.
My 1280 sq in monoplane at 19 oz ft and a 40 cc proved that extreme light weight and power are not that hard to do - I don't know who is doing Chip's but it will be a good one - I am sure.
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Old 03-15-2003, 11:36 AM
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Big Bird Flyer

Did CHIP give any hints on the size of ULTIMATES being made? Like in the 50 to 80cc range I hope!

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Old 03-15-2003, 08:30 PM
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this is a copy of the e-mail I got fron him. The one he will have is for a 100cc engine. and the pattern Ultimate would do good on a 50cc. I got this e-mail 1/27/03 .

I have a new ARF 33% Ultimate that will be available in the summer for around $1100, but it is built for the 100cc twins. The other prob. with singles is vibration. The planes were always coming apart on people back then, and ours worked because of my dads mount. That will work, but its a lot of time and money to do when you have the DA-100 readily available.

Probably the best option by far for that engine is my new F3A airplane. It is a bipe, and Dave has one ordered with me from Japan so he can give some details. Anyway I just modified it a little in the nose and sent the drawing to China for them to produce it specially for a 40 to 60cc gas single. Should come in around 15 pounds and be incredible. From what they tell me this plane will be delivered within 6 weeks for testing, and then available to the public 6 weeks from the time I say its good.

Let me know what you decide

Chip
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Old 03-15-2003, 09:05 PM
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Now that sounds promising! I was going to buy a the CONCHEN ULTIMATE, a kit, but I think i'll wait to see what CHIP comes out with.
Thanks YOU FOR YOUR REPLIES

AJT ;^)
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Old 03-15-2003, 11:33 PM
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sounds like a arf is going to be afvailable -!
The comment about the single - from Chip tho - I have to note: was for the old shake and bake engines of yesteryear- I use 80 singles a lot - on solid mounts and they have NO more vibes than my 100 -or for that matter the best of twins.
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Old 03-16-2003, 08:58 PM
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The one that he designed for the 100cc will probably be fine with a ZDZ 80. They are a powerhouse and they don't shake like the old ones .
I have a 31% Aeroworks edge with a Brisson 70cc and it doesn't shake that bad either.
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Old 03-18-2003, 10:54 AM
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The new plane is called a Double-Vision, at this point it weighs 4.6 pounds, and is well over 1600 squares. I needed to be under 11 pounds to be F3A legal and we have made that no prob. The planes are almost finished and I will give updates periodically. I would post a few pics, but am currently looking for someone creative to do a new web page for me. If anyone knows of someone with the time, if would be greatly appreciated if you could have them email me direct so we could talk.

The Chinese version is very similiar and with a DA-50 and the big surfaces it should be an incredible 3D airplane. Delivery is roughly 2 weeks out. Please email if interested as your response will have a direct affect on weather we have them make a full production run. hydecompprod@theriver.com[/email]

Now, Dick, what kind of stuff are you running. NO WAY YOUR TWIN SHOULD BE AS ROUGH AS A SINGLE. Are you sure the cylinder heads on the twin are on opposite sides That would explain any similarities in vibration LOL (Just kidden, send me a pic of your new one)

Chip
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Old 03-18-2003, 02:19 PM
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Gosh Chip- Ihave a new DA100 here -and it is as smooth as myZDZ80!
The ZDZ100 is same-
This stuff is far better than the old shaky stuff- If it wasn't I sure wouldn't use it.
The bipe is a 20-300 -which looks a fair bit differnt than the single place series -
should have pics next month of th 150 size - -actually a fair bit smaller than the one you had at the TOC-
under 300 squares -
we have 4500 ftaltitude to cope with.
Also - anyone who can't build for a 40/50 engine under 11 lbs -simply hasn't tried - my Petol petrel is still as solid as the day I made it -and has survived full stall landings (Harrier? is that the pop name?) with no cracks or problems
A good lite ARF of 1400 sq should be well received!
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Old 03-18-2003, 02:20 PM
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OK 3000--- I don't spell check
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Old 03-30-2003, 02:45 AM
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I know you guys were talkin about Ultimates here, but I just wanted to run a few # s for my onw desigh scraths biult bipe. OK, top wing has a 63" ws and the outsides have been swept back(like the full scale Ultimate) around 20 deg. The bottom is strait and has a 62 1/4" ws. each planal weighs about 8 oz. The wing area is 1488 sq ". Dry fuse w/ tail feathers is about a lb. I've planning on using a Moki 2.10 with a 18-8 3 leaver or 20-10 2 leaver. I'm usind powerflight li-ion 1800 mah batteries and Hitec servos(THEY'RE CHEAP!). I'm shooting for 11-12lb. all up. Think I should go with a 1.8? I need to take some pics. Thanks, Jordan
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