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IMAC basic help

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Old 04-09-2003, 04:21 AM
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flyintexan
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Default IMAC basic help

I still consider myself new to pattern and IMAC, flew entry level last year, had a blast. However, I am worried about the 2 turn spin this year's IMAC basic sequence. How do enter the spin properly to avoid a zero?
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Old 04-09-2003, 05:52 AM
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quist
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Default IMAC basic help

Practice stalling your plane from straight and level flight. Feed elevator as you are slowing down. The nose will be pitched up, when the nose falls that is your legal spin entry. You can't drive the plane down. Judges will look for the nose to fall. It is also important to spin in the direction of the stall.
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Old 04-09-2003, 11:08 AM
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flyintexan
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Default IMAC basic help

Thank you for the help. I've read also that the spin should performed using rudder and elev. only? My sig extra seems to require at least some aileron to look good during the spin...? I really don't have any IMAC/Pattern competitors in my club to help me judge how fast or slow the spin should be to look the best.
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Old 04-09-2003, 11:32 AM
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Default IMAC basic help

Although you can spin with just the elevator and rudder, it has been my experience that it is much easier to stop precisely if you also add aileron. Just be sure not to add the aileron (or much rudder, for that matter) until the nose breaks and the rotation starts. If you get on the rudder or aileron before the rotation really begins, the plane will appear to "snap" into the spin and you will be rewarded with a big, fat zero.

Ken
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Old 04-09-2003, 02:03 PM
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ilikeplanes
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Default IMAC basic help

I've been working on this too. I prefer to spin the airplane to the left. To make sure it goes that way, I try to gradually feed left rudder until it falls off. Then I add full left rudder and aileron to the already full up elevator. I'm still not exactly sure how a zero score would be given though. Does the nose have to drop without any yaw or roll whatsoever? It seems to me like there's a blurry line between encouraging the airplane to break to a certain side, and snapping it into a spin.
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Old 04-09-2003, 09:11 PM
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rcplanefan
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Default IMAC basic help

The nose and a wingtip should break simultaneously. What the judges look for is one wing raising (bad), the nose raising (also bad), or the plane being forced against the way the stall occurs (bad, again). As long as the nose and one wingtip break simultaneously, the "stall break" portion of the spin is scored. Of course, you then have to rotate the correct amount, finish with a vertical downline, and exit straight and level to score a 10. Spins are tough to do, particularly in crosswinds.

Ken
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Old 04-09-2003, 10:33 PM
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flynbrian
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Default IMAC basic help

To make sure that the spin goes the way that you want it to you can add a little rudder slowly as it is about to stall(a very small amount). Once the nose drops then you add the right amount of rudder. I dont like to use any ailerons because it makes it spin at a fast rate. The only time I use a little aileron is when I do a spin to the right, because it helps the spin get started better.
A real great way to recover the spin is to release the rudder to center about 1/4 of a turn before the direction that you want to exit and then just pop down elivator when you get to the angle you want. It takes practice
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Old 04-09-2003, 10:40 PM
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flyintexan
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Default IMAC basic help

I will practice....alot. Zeros suck.
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Old 04-10-2003, 02:21 AM
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ilikeplanes
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Default IMAC basic help

Yep, if you aileron the airplane around at the end of the spins, it's -1 point for each 10 degrees of rotation. I'm using the flying and judging guide as bedtime reading. Just reading and understanding the judging criteria can improve your flying.

BTW, i was practicing the Basic sequence at the field today. Sometimes adding early rudder would cause a combo spin/wing-over. Not good. I found that if you enter with the wings tilted just a little to the direction you want to spin, and add just a slight amount of rudder in that direction, it will break nicely and predictably. It works for me anyway.
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Old 04-14-2003, 08:02 PM
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willembad
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Default Spin entry 101

Hi all,

Here's what I was tough, unfortunately only after a LOT of zeroes.

1) The judges are looking at the line you are drawing prior to the break. The slower you go the more elevator it takes to maintain altitude. You HAVE TO maintain altitude up to the break, not climb either! (straight line, remember), thus the nose will get higher and higher as you slow down.

2) In a perfect world you can ignore number 2, but 99% of the time the wind will not be exactly down the runway, which means most of the time there will be a crosswind. This crosswind either wants to push the aircraft ever further away from you, or bring it closer, and every maneuver has to compensate for this so that the distance to your baseline stay the same (how deep you are into the back of the box). The same thing that happens in #1 with your elevator should happen with your rudder. As you slow down you should feed in more rudder to compensate for the crosswind (straight line). This means that when the plane breaks you will already have some rudder input. This determines which way to spin (hopefully left, because right feels goofy).

3) The ailerons keep the rotation going without the spin getting to far developed (flat). This makes recovery on heading easier. Less than "all the elevator I've got" will do the same thing, except there is a fine line between enough for a spin and to little for a clean break.

It took me a long time to spin consistently, but now they are "money" maneuvers in any sequence. Hope it helps someone...

Later,

Willem
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Old 04-15-2003, 07:29 PM
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AeroDave
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Default IMAC basic help

Hello All! I have been having trouble with the spin going flat. I realized I've been entering it with full 3D throws! it really helps to switch to low rate! Sounds kinda obvious, I know, but I've gotten used to flying on high rates with some expo and it never became a problem until I started practicing the spin.
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Old 04-15-2003, 10:36 PM
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flyintexan
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Default spin trouble

I have been practicing with a new airplane that does everything great except spin: when I enter, I get one nice rotation, then a slower rotation, then fast, etc., etc.

Is the outboard wing panel trying to fly, when it is supposed to be stalled...? How do I remedy this....more rudder/elevator throw?

....anyone....bueller?.....
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Old 04-17-2003, 03:43 AM
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Divesplat
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Default IMAC basic help

To maintain a more constant spin speed(which is not a downgrade by the way), either, get off the ail or elev.

What i mean is start the spin as you are, after the first rotation, or 1/2 rotation, gently slide off either the elev, or off the ail. Try it with both. Hold the rudder in throughout. For my pattern planes I get off the elevator and the spin is nice, legal and manageable.
For the 37% extra's I have to get off the ail.

This transition should be smooth and unnoticeable. Keeping the spin a little slower will also improve your ability to stop the spin correctly.

Hope this helps and give it a try.

Are you going to the Pattern contest in Waco next weekend Tx?
Or maybe Midland Imac next month? Should be at both.

Ed
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Old 04-17-2003, 10:52 AM
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flyintexan
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Default spin help

Thank you for the spin help. I will try it ASAP.

I would love to go to the Waco meet, but I will probably not be able to make it. I am planning to go to an IMAC meet in Bryan on May 3-4th...


Thanks again,
Mark
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Old 04-23-2003, 06:27 PM
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3dbatixkid
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Default IMAC basic help

one more tip, when you are spinning, release the spin about 1/4 turn before your exit point, and then roll to the exact point. This will make it mich easier to stop on the exact point where the spin needs to be stopped.
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Old 04-23-2003, 06:57 PM
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Default IMAC basic help

Originally posted by 3dbatixkid
one more tip, when you are spinning, release the spin about 1/4 turn before your exit point, and then roll to the exact point. This will make it mich easier to stop on the exact point where the spin needs to be stopped.
Doing this will result in a score of "1" assuming the spin was otherwise perfect. Rolling (not autorotating) on the exit is one point for each 10 degrees off... 1/4 roll = 90 degrees = 9 points deducted. Since there are very few perfect manuevers it will more than likely be a zero from a good judge.
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Old 04-23-2003, 09:15 PM
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3dbatixkid
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Default IMAC basic help

Ive been doing spins like that for 2 years now, and havent lost points....
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Old 04-23-2003, 10:11 PM
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Aero330LX
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Default IMAC basic help

Originally posted by 3dbatixkid
Ive been doing spins like that for 2 years now, and havent lost points....
Sounds like the judges you have flown in front of have not read the rule book! I can gaurantee you that you would in front of me, because i know what the rules are! Read the book, and tell all those judges that you have flown in front of (and have not downgraded for that) to read it too. I am a stickler for knowing the rules...and following them. If the judges do not know the rules they should not be judging. By giving you a score and not giving the required downgrade they were effectively docking the pilots who flew the manuever correctly. I don't know where you have flown before, but I can promise you if you fly around here these guys will downgrade you severely for that...they know the rules!
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Old 04-24-2003, 03:28 AM
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Default IMAC basic help

Once the plane is in a stalled condition, the spin, getting off the rudder a little early, 1/4 rotation really should not be that visible. Each plane is a little different and the speed of the spin is a factor also.

Actually I agree with Aero, if you can mask it. Lets be honest here. It's Not what inputs we have but the actual result of the plane in the air. If the plane is at a 45degree attitude and getting off the rudder doesn't change that attitude, then the spin has continued. On the other hand if getting off the rudder causes the plane to drop the nose and perform an axial roll, then yes, "0" but haven't seen any planes I can think off to do this.

Also, some planes will continue to auto-rotate in the spin, a certain amount before stopping. It may be nessessary to let go early, this is again not a downgrade as long as the spin continues, then stop the spin with opposite rudder or ail.

Ed
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Old 04-24-2003, 03:54 AM
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Default IMAC basic help

Hi Divesplat,
I aggree with you too! If I 'see' a spin...I grade one, but an earlier post said to 1/4 roll out...if I see and axial 1/4 roll? oh man... I will downgrade 'em bigtime 9 points...really I wouldn't like doing that, but that is what I would have to give because that is what is in the rules. You are correct though about stick inputs...i don't care what you do with the sticks as long as i see an autorotation (even if it just looks like one)...even if one was to move the sticks in circles! LOL A judge cannot be watching the sticks and the airplane at the same time. There is a little bit of a fine line in this, but a 1/4 'roll' is a roll and is 9 points per the point per 10 degree rule...in reality though it will probably be a zero unless everything else is perfect. I don't argue methods only what I see. Airplane require differeing methods and 'flying' and every plane is different. If I came accross as sounding otherwise, that was definately not the intent.
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Old 04-28-2003, 01:21 AM
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flyintexan
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Default correction between manuevers

I have been reading the flying/judging guide, but still need help:

If I were to drift from the front of the box toward the back (away from the runway) in a turn around manuever I would be downgraded....the question: If I were to exit that manuever and yaw my way back toward the front of the box (toward the runway) and then enter the next manuever (center manuever perhaps) parallel to the runway, would I be downgraded?

I can see that it might be better to continue the sequence parallel to the runway further back in the box but there is usually another aircraft in that airspace (upper classes versus lower) and as a Basic flyer I would not feel comfortable risking a mid-air with a much more expensive aircraft than mine...

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated...even if it's not "by the book".
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Old 04-28-2003, 01:35 AM
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Divesplat
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Default IMAC basic help

Hey Fly'n

The rule book is very clear on this. Once you end the turn around manuever(and downgraded), the next manuever begins. What this means is once you achieve straight and level flight, the turnaround manuever is over. The next maneuver begins at that point!!! Sooo, and heading change made at this point to get closer should be downgraded on the next(current) maneuver 1 pt for 10degrees change in heading. If you made a 30 degree change of heading to get back straight with the flight line, you should incure a 3 pt deduction, before even beginning the actual center manuever.

Hope this clears it up but in the judging manual there is a pict of one maneuver ending with a line, and the next one beginning.

Ed
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Old 04-28-2003, 01:36 AM
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Default Aero....

You are correct by downgrading....but by the book means you would have to award a zero, not a 1. By ending the spin with a roll is not a spin, so it is a zero......

Pugs
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Old 04-28-2003, 01:43 AM
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flyintexan
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Default IMAC basic help

Then I should continue the sequence and just stay parallel from that point on.....I would just feel so damn uncomfortable if I ended up on the same plane as an unlimited pilot...


Mark
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Old 04-28-2003, 11:43 AM
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Default IMAC basic help

You are correct by downgrading....but by the book means you would have to award a zero, not a 1. By ending the spin with a roll is not a spin, so it is a zero......
Pugsley,

Sorry, but Fred Johnson was very clear on this point at the weekend's flying and judging seminar. If the spin finished with a 90 degree roll, and everything else was perfect, you would award a 1. Not trying to be picky, just trying to make sure everyone understands the rules.

Ken
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