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  1. #1
    gene6029's Avatar
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    IMAC "BOX" SIZE


    Im flying IMAC this year in the basic class and have a question someone may be able to answer for me. While im practiceing, i am told im either flying too close, or not going out on the ends far enough by other seasoned IMAC pilots. My question is why must our planes be out so far (200') or more out front and why do we need to fly so far out to the ends of "the box"? When asking the guys helping me they say things like, " in the upper classes you will need the room for their manuvers". My problem is when i fly out that far on the ends I really cant see whats going on correctly ( wings level ) etc. If im in closer I can fly much better, but am told it LOOKS LIKE im rushing, even tho im not. I lost my cowl on the stall turn at the far end of "the box", and when we located it, it was about 1/4 mile from where i was standing! I fly a 35% 104" ws model and it still looks small that far out there. Im scheduled for a bootcamp & judgeing seminar here in the SE and wanted to see if anyone coud give me a reasonable answer before i get there. Thanks for tolerateing this long post....Gene

  2. #2
    Flyfalcons's Avatar
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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    There's no reason you have to fly all the way to the ends of the box. Tell the local IMAC guys that it's more important for you to see the plane than it is to use every single inch of the aerobatic box.
    Ryan Winslow
    Fly PAU!

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    There is no box. You now get points for "Airspace Control". Check the sequennce sheets. It sound like you are going to two extremes -- too close, then too far out. You have to find a middle ground that will present the sequence so it will appear smooth and not rushed, but close enough to give good visibility. If you can't see what the plane is doing, neither can the judges, which means lower scores. Its VERY important to "draw lines" between each manuver. Failing to do so will also result in downgrades. Throttle managemet is imperative. Using a lower throttle setting on the horizontals will give you more time to get the best placement for the next manuver, and allow the judges time to get a score down. The judging schools are great and will help you understand what its all about. Most importantly, have fun.

  4. #4
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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    have the "locals" been to a Flying and Judging seminar recently??

    and since you are in North Carolina are you going to the Frozen Toes Boot camp?

    http://www.mini-iac.com/EditModule.a...er&ItemId=1903


    All questions will be answered........
    also, make sure to read all of the rules... I am amazed at how many people fly IMAC that have never read the rules......

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  5. #5
    gene6029's Avatar
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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE


    Yes, im registered for the frozen toes bootcamp. Also the judgeing seminar in Fayettville. The guys i fly with are pretty current on the rules etc, but i get conflicting answers sometimes or I just dont understand exactly what they are saying. I have taken the time to read thru the rules, but I must be interpreting them differently than others. Hopefully the bootcamp & F&J seminars will clear up some of this for me. I guess my biggest misunderstanding is the airspace control deal. I feel for me anyway its more difficult to fly long distances between manuvers than to keep it in tighter. I still get my lines drawn between them, just dont feel comfortable flying 500-1000' to get to the start of the next one. It may be just something I'll have to get used to. I guess for the basic sequence anyway Im saying I can fly the entire sequence inside a 2000' "BOX" instead of pushing it out much further. Im old school, and grew up at the local airport, where everyone doing aerobatics in full scale aircraft seldom left the boundries of the airport. I guess that sticks in my mind while im flying & makes it difficult for me to comprehend why we fly so far out. I really enjoy IMAC, just dont fully understand some of it yet.....Gene

  6. #6
    quist's Avatar
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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE



    There is no reason to take the basic sequence out further then the 2000' box.

    As for the distance out. Give yourself plenty of room from the deadline, so if you get out of postion you wont break the line. 150-200' in front of you presents well. It also allows you to draw an upline without the judges straining to see the plane.


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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    TQ---I believe the 60 degree vertical rule is still in effect?


    That means if the judge has the crane their head 60 degrees straight up to look at your plane it was either a downgrade or a zero, I can't remember.

    This means you are flying tooooooo close, move it out some.
    www.hobbiesxtreme.com

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    quist's Avatar
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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    EDIT Once again, no reason to hit 60 degrees in the basic sequence for good presentation.

    We have not had a judging seminar here in a couple of years, so I wont bother quoting an out of date book.

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    So IMAC changed the rules to fit the airplanes and flying style rather than make the airplanes fit the rules?
    Be a kid forever, fly models.

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    ORIGINAL: twtaylor

    So IMAC changed the rules to fit the airplanes and flying style rather than make the airplanes fit the rules?

    I don't see how this was done.


    The standard is about 100-200yds off the deadline. even a .40 glo is pretty easy to see at this distance.

    What IMAC is trying to do is keep the pilot at a safe "consistent" distance. If your plane is very small of course you can fly slightly closer so it presents better.......but that doesn't mean right up on the judges. It also doesn't mean fly so far away that the judges cannot see the plane.


    Now if the pilots eyes are bad (as stated in the first posts) and it requires him to fly very close.......well that is a deduction on the ACS and has nothing to do with plane size.

    That would be like saying I'm missing a thumb so I shouldn't have to incorporate rudder corrections. A physical disabliity does not weigh into the scoring of IMAC.


    www.hobbiesxtreme.com

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    Thanks for the replies. Im looking fwd to the boot camp & F&J seminar. Maybe I'll have a better perspective after both. Looks like a year of learning something new, and like it was suggested I am allready haveing fun......Gene

  12. #12
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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    those are nice answers, but the "locals" are right too. if your flying a 35 %'er and having a hard time seeing it, sounds like it might be out to far for any class.

  13. #13
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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    ORIGINAL: quist

    Yes it is, but rarely enforced. Once again, no reason to hit 60 degrees in the basic sequence.
    I am having a heck of a time finding this in the rule book....
    can you let me know what section or page it is on



    my own edit....

    OK..I admit it...My wife tells me I'm too sarcastic sometimes! And darn it...I let her believe that!

    Ok.. I am.. I should have been much clearer.......

    Sorry for my smart alec answer.....
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  14. #14

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    ORIGINAL: quist

    Yes it is, but rarely enforced. Once again, no reason to hit 60 degrees in the basic sequence.
    Hi Guys.... To be clear... there is NO 60° rule in IMAC....This went out 2 years ago (for those who have not attended a recent Judging Seminar). The only thing that exists is the "Aerobatic Airspace" & there are no defined parameters except the "deadline" which is 100 feet out.
    When we originally had the "box" there was no definitive way of exactly saying who had broken the box. Various methods were tried including experiments with a GPS system. In reality, the only way would be to have boundary judges set up at each contest.

    This reality just will not work in MOST contests since we don't have enough sequence judges as it is and additional "boundary judges would put a strain on an already stretched situation. In addition, boundary judges certainly could be sitting in "alligator alley" or some sort of tarantulla nest etc. on the outer fringes & even at the back of the box.... So what do we do?

    At present, the Airspace Control Score is the way to try to get pilots to learn to keep their sequence in a space that the judges can see it properly & judge accordingly. If pilots can get used to this idea & place their maneuvers where they can be judged optimally then they will be rewarded with a higher score on their ACS (Airspace Control Score).

    At the recently concluded National/International Judging School [link]http://www.sewbusy.com/IntlJSchool2008.htm[/link] we experimented with possible scores input into a scoring program. When the scores were generated it was revealed that the difference between a 0 & a 5 OR a 5 & a 10 that the final score PER JUDGE (in each sequence) in the Unlimited class would be 20.3 of NORMALIZED points. The ACS score has more "BITE" than we really believe, since an Unlimited pilot can rack up a significant increase in points if he flies in a smaller footprint. The variation goes down as we move into the lower classes.

    So, based on this, a pilot should be concentrating as MUCH as possible to place their sequence in a smaller footprint to attain the highest ACS score possible.

    Hope this helps.
    Wayne
    IMAC Judging Instructor

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    Wow, Sewbusy! Could not have said it any better. Thanks to you and exeter acres as you both hit the nail on the head. I just hope that everyone judging me knows the rules like you guys!

    Stan

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    Unfortunately we are dealing with human judges and since this is a hobby we have to use judges who aren't always as prepared as we wish we all could be! The judging schools (at least the one that I went to) helps a lot by at least getting us all looking for the same things but the airspace control score IMHO needs some further attention in the schools.

    I can't find any rule, nor do I recall hearing about one that says anything about 60 degrees up or any of that. The dead line (that will get you a zero for the figure if you cross it) is 100 feet in front of the contestant. Everyone has their own opinion on what looks good apparently but there is no rule that says you have to be any certain distance out beyond that or how far right and left you go. Only that you should be "placing the figures in the airspace in a manner that allow the figures to be optimally judged". So keeping them in tight so they can be easily seen makes sense to me but you also have to make sure the judges have time to consider your last figure, mark a score and are ready to judge the next figure. If we had scribes to write for us then the judges could keep their eyes on the plane at all times and we wouldn't have to worry about that either. Again reality is that we don't have scribes at most contests that I'm aware of.

    If your airplane flies slowly enough I'd think you could keep a pretty tight sequence and accomplish what is required by the rules even adding a bit of extra line to allow them time to score. Keep in mind that the speed of your airplane is not judged either that I can find so flying slower lines would help accomplish this but again you may offend some judges sense of what "looks good" if your lines and manuevers vary in speed.

    Having said all that we are dealing with human beings and it is hard to always know what they want. Go to the judging schools and watch and listen. All you can do is watch what they are judging as good and try to emulate it. Some will judge the 100' deadline at 60' and some at 150'. As a pilot I'd try to keep out about 200' as a baseline to be safe but not much further so they can see the plane. You can also ask someone who you've seen judging (probably not during) what they consider a perfect size loop, or how long a line should be between manuevers. Some folks will be very forthcoming with what they are looking for even if there is no right answer per the rulebook.

    I was told that I was rushing my manuevers as well... I suspect there is just a bias amongst the judges for longer lines flown nice and slow between manuevers so that's what I'm going to give them a bit more of this year, though I'll tell you that more often I think folks need to be downgraded for flying to far out than the opposite. I saw some of the flyers even in Intermediate taking 35% airplanes out so far that you really couldn't make out if the wings were level anymore... apparently because they think flying long lines between every manuever looks better.

    The rules seem to indicate that controlling the size of the box should be rewarded (as long as there is a line between manuevers) but what I've seen so far seems like the judges like bigger loops, longer lines and slow flight. It's just a bias that has developed I suspect so you can be right according to the rules but if you want the best scores your probably just going to have to follow the crowd.

    Yes, I've only flown Basic so far but I understand you need more space for manuevers with a lot of "extras" thrown in when you get up to Advanced and unlimited but when every line betwen manuevers gives me time to drink another beverage of my choice.....

    Hope this doesn't offend anyone. I have nothing but respect for those who do the judging, I haven't had the guts yet cause there is so much to keep track of and I just want to have fun! I'm going to though after another run through school and bit more experience. I feel like I owe it to the CDs 'cause I know how hard it is to get people to do it! Besides I want to give a 10 or two! Come on guys, impress me!

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE


    ORIGINAL: jsallade

    make sure the judges have time to consider your last figure, mark a score and are ready to judge the next figure.

    what "looks good"

    Some folks will be very forthcoming with what they are looking for even if there is no right answer per the rulebook.

    I suspect there is just a bias amongst the judges for longer lines flown nice and slow between manuevers so that's what I'm going to give them a bit more of this year, though I'll tell you that more often I think folks need to be downgraded for flying to far out than the opposite.

    The rules seem to indicate that controlling the size of the box should be rewarded (as long as there is a line between manuevers).
    It's just a bias that has developed I suspect so you can be right according to the rules but if you want the best scores your probably just going to have to follow the crowd.
    I know that I have taken certain quotes out of your last post but these are things that definetly need addressing. I appreciate your honesty toward IMAC but as a true IMAC'er I must respond. One thing I love about IMAC is the fact that it does have defined rules. Some of which I personally don't agree but I choose to fly IMAC and I do support the rule book completely. The one thing that attracts me to IMAC is the fact that the criteria is set forth in the rule book and that is the criteria that I must be judge to.

    If you are being judged to a different standard than the rule book then we do have a problem. As IMAC spends lots of money on education and teaching the rules and this has drastically improved over the years.

    We are not judged on speed. We are not judged on length of lines between maneuvers, but we are judged on the entire line. Every bobble does count! If there is a bias among judges then this is something that we must work on. Please help me spread the word as to help each judge apply only the criteria set forth in the rule book!

    One last thing, You should be rewarded for a smaller footprint.

    This is one of my soap boxes. Sorry not trying to offend anyone either just trying to make IMAC better.

    Stan

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    I've heard a good rule of thumb is 2 seconds on a line before you start the next maneuver.

    I am going to try and fly IMAC this year. I haven't been to a contest in about 5yrs. I'll be flying Basic with a 30% Extra 300L.
    Airplanes have expiration dates. Its just not printed anywhere on them.
    Im not really an airplane pilot; but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    Stan,
    Couldn't agree more[sm=thumbs_up.gif]. I'm personally obstinate enough that I will fly more to the rulebook than I will to judges preferences but I'm not convinced that will ever get me the best scores, especially in the lower classes where the judges are guys who fly bigger airplanes and are used to seeing bigger, longer lines and the like. I'm just basing this on what I've seen and heard from talking to other IMAC participants and the judges comments (again my disclaimer that my experience is limited). When I judge, I don't intend to base scores on the size of a loop, the speed of a particluar airplane or the length of the lines between manuevers as long as there is no question that there is a line. However, I've heard others cite exactly those criteria for downgrading a manuever[&:]. I'd much prefer if we were all judged only on what's in the rulebook and maybe that's what I should encourage, particularly in anyone just starting but I'm not convinced that adviced would be totally practical. Call me a skeptic but I'm all for the cause.
    Bye the way, when I talked about judges bias I didn't mean to imply that anyone was doing anything on purpose to lower scores or the like, just saying everyone has bias on how they like to see manuevers flown; what they notice most both to the negative and positive. I love to see a plane that holds the same speed in both up and down lines... just looks better to me. It isn't a judging criteria so I hope it won't affect my scoring but it certainly looks nicer to me. I have to remind myself often which manuevers require entry and exit radii being equal or entrance and exits at the same elevation. Certain manuevers look better when they are done that way to me but that don't make it right!


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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    When we originally had the "box" there was no definitive way of exactly saying who had broken the box.
    Back in the day when the 75 degree markers were in the rules, there was a definitive way to tell if the box had been violated. It's been interesting to observe ever since. Carry on!
    Ed Alt
    Tech-Aero Designs LLC

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2

    When we originally had the "box" there was no definitive way of exactly saying who had broken the box.
    Back in the day when the 75 degree markers were in the rules, there was a definitive way to tell if the box had been violated. It's been interesting to observe ever since. Carry on!
    Back in those "days", with the 75° markers, the pilots were flying MUCH further out so that they would not break the 75° "line".....As a result of that, the footprint was extremely LARGE & many contests were in jeopardy of losing the flying fields for future contests. The rolling circles or any Y axis maneuvers could not be judged as breaking the "box" since there was no way (unless boundary judges were instituted) to tell. A judge could say that the box was broken, but there was no way that it could be proven.
    Wayne

  22. #22
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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    So rather than enforce the rules IMAC did away with the box and now fly in unlimited air space? Seeing if the "Box" was broken is easy. It all seems to me the rules were changed to fit the airplanes and flying style. When Imac did away with the box and centering maneuvers they really dropped a main aspect of precision aerobatics imho. I fly pattern, yes the airplanes are much smaller but also much faster from what I've seen. We have no problem flying inside the box on the proper line. I fail to see why IMAC made these changes. I also fly a 37% Edge.
    Be a kid forever, fly models.

  23. #23
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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE


    ORIGINAL: sewbusy

    At present, the Airspace Control Score is the way to try to get pilots to learn to keep their sequence in a space that the judges can see it properly & judge accordingly.
    Wayne, we both know that the actual reason for the Airspace score was an attempt to control the footprint of the sequence once IMAC admitted that it was essentially impossible to properly and accurately judge a well defined box. This was done with noise issues in mind. The ability to judge the sequence was the justification used rather than the primary reason for the rule.
    Team Futaba - RClipos.com

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE


    ORIGINAL: twtaylor

    So rather than enforce the rules IMAC did away with the box and now fly in unlimited air space? Seeing if the "Box" was broken is easy. It all seems to me the rules were changed to fit the airplanes and flying style. When Imac did away with the box and centering maneuvers they really dropped a main aspect of precision aerobatics imho. I fly pattern, yes the airplanes are much smaller but also much faster from what I've seen. We have no problem flying inside the box on the proper line. I fail to see why IMAC made these changes. I also fly a 37% Edge.
    TW - why don't you tell us how you judge the back of the box? How do you know that a plane is 1000 feet away in - for example - a rolling circle? How do you know it wasn't 900 or 1100? If you can give me a definitive, non-subjective answer that works at all airfields, then I will buy your argument. Those of us who tried to find a way couldn't. Please, enlighten us.

    It is tiring to work so hard to make something better only to have people make comments like "the rules were changed to fit the flying style." Not true.

    Ken

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    RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE

    I can see where the back of the "box" could be hard to judge. Let me ask you this. Why put maneuvers in your sequence that requires that type of space cross box? If you're losing flying fields what is the purpose of making it even worse? If you're going to have cross box flying like rolling circles then don't down grade for flying out to far?

    I don't have an argument, I only have questions. Why did the rules change? Seems to me they changed because guys were having a hard time flying inside the 75 degree box with the huge airplanes they built. So that begs the question what changed? The rules to fit the airplane or the airplane to fit the rules? In pattern we adopted the FAI F3A size standards for our airplanes. If we'd have removed those standards we'd most likely have the same problems as IMAC does now.

    I applaud your work in IMAC, (I admit I've no clue what you do for imac) nobody gets the accolades they deserve for the work they do.

    Reading these forums I see the same problems stated over and over.

    I have an answer but you won't like it.

    Then again I could just go away and not bother you.
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