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Wingspan Limit

Old 05-26-2003, 12:31 AM
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Fred
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Default Wingspan Limit

Just a thought why not limit the wing span for the basic class to 80" ???
Old 05-26-2003, 12:56 AM
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WreckRman2
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Default Wingspan Limit

If they did that it would stop alot of people from even trying it.
Old 05-26-2003, 01:34 AM
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Default Wingspan Limit

Isn't that what the mini-imac thing was all about?
Old 05-26-2003, 03:06 AM
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ilikeplanes
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Default Wingspan Limit

I asked the same question, in a different way, some time ago. The conclusion I drew is that, although IMAC has no official size preference, it's really all about big airplanes. Virtually all of the active participants in my region fly big. Even in basic.

Mini-mac is essentially dead as far as I can tell. I think it's a good idea with obsolete rules.

The best suggestion was club-mac or club level IMAC. This idea is intended to be workable at your own local club several times a year. It would encourage people who would never even consider IMAC otherwise. There would be an airplane size limit to prevent the real or imagined intimidation factor and cost impact that you can get at a regular IMAC event.

In the Northwest region, there are 12 events this year. If you went to all of them, you would log some serious miles driving. People like me can simply not afford the time to drive 3 hours to an event, spend the night, and drive 3 hours back. All this for 6 to 8 flights lasting 3 minutes. On the other hand, a club-mac format at my own club or one of the other locals would be very attractive. Just another day at the field with some sequence flying and judging. A real peer oriented event.
Old 05-26-2003, 03:11 PM
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A320driver
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Default Wingspan Limit

As both a regular IMAC and SCAT competition flier I would like to see an engine size restriction for the basic class, say 50cc. I remember when I started out flying against 40% machines, fortunately I had an excellent mentor who convinced me it was the pilot (to a large degree) and not the airplane that made the difference in the lower classes.(Basic and sportsman)
Wanting to have all your events less than 3 hours drive and one nights stay away is just not going to happen! There are just not that many Scale Aerobatic fliers in the USA. My minimum travel time to a competition is a 5 to 6 hour drive and a 2 night stay. Don't just look at a competition in terms of flight time. Use the time to learn from other competitors, everyone I know is more than willing to share their knowledge. ( This isn't a pattern contest!)
Volunteer to scribe and learn to judge, another very good way to improve your flying skills. There is much more to a competition than the 6 or 8 flights you make over the course of a weekend.
Old 05-27-2003, 12:08 AM
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Default Wingspan Limit

80" wingspan limit?

Great idea!


For pattern.

And you can see how well it worked for them. ...
Old 06-11-2003, 04:22 PM
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jimo811
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Default 80" limit?

This doesn't sound like a good idea for someone like me that is now wanting to get into IMAC with my recently purchased 40% cap. I need to start somewhere, and basic is the starting point is it not? I've been flying funfly type airplanes in the past, and IMAC sounds like a great teaching tool as well as loads of fun. Thanks.
Old 06-11-2003, 04:31 PM
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tiggerinmk
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Default Wingspan Limit

I think thats the point. You didn't need to ( or shouldn't feel you have to) splash out on a 40% airplane just to compete in the lower levels of IMAC. A .60 sized Cap should have been adequate.
Then you can buy that big expensive ship when you go onto the more advanced calsses...

Or maybe that is the point? A bigger plane will be more stable and not be affected so much by weather conditions... So, is a bigger plane a way of covering up for lack of pilot skill? :idea:
Old 06-11-2003, 04:43 PM
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P-51B
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Default Re: Wingspan Limit

Originally posted by Fred
Just a thought why not limit the wing span for the basic class to 80" ???
Would that be the maximum or minimum limit?
Old 06-11-2003, 07:12 PM
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Flyfalcons
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Default Re: Re: Wingspan Limit

Originally posted by P-51B
Would that be the maximum or minimum limit?
I'm sure most people would consider it a maximum.

As for jimo811, it's my opinion that if you can fly a 40% Cap then you are at the ability level to start in Sportsman.
Old 06-11-2003, 07:18 PM
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tiggerinmk
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Default Wingspan Limit

Originally posted by Diablo
80" wingspan limit?
For pattern.
And you can see how well it worked for them. ...
Are you saying that it wasn't a good idea?

Just interested in your thoughts, I don't fly in any competitions, yet...
Old 06-11-2003, 11:12 PM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Wingspan Limit

Originally posted by Flyfalcons
As for jimo811, it's my opinion that if you can fly a 40% Cap then you are at the ability level to start in Sportsman.

I can understand your point very well. I was competing against such aircraft at the now defuct Cactus Classic held in Mesa one year, in basic at my 2nd contest. However, such an assumption can be dangerous, especially with the introduction of unknown sequences.

Simply owning and flying a large aircraft as that doesn't imply any skill whatsoever, especially in a contest environment. Basic is intended to be a class in which competition is not the emphasis, but rather learning. Some people that fly in Basic sometimes get too competitive, and that's a shame, because most people in Basic are just trying to learn their way around a contest.

Some of those people may buy over their head and get pretty flustered when flying in front of people. I've seen it happen myself, while calling for a rather wealthy man that was flying a giant scale Extra in his first contest. I almost had to land the plane for him he was so rattled at the end of his sequences.

Basic has it's place, and it's my opinion that we should not delegate to people what they can and can't fly in this class. I believe the spirit of the Basic class has been corrupted by overly-competitive people, and that can be intimidating to people just trying to learn the contest scene, no matter what they chose to fly. I think we should be steering the Basic class back to what it was developed for, the Basics, and not so much as competition.

We should also remember what it is that causes IMAC to be such a big hit on the contest scene. The rules allow the greatest freedom to use nearly unlimited variations of equipment, from huge engines and wingspans, to nifty electronics. No other competition circuit among RC has such freedom. If we start restricting it, beyond the sound issue, we'll all lose.

Thanks,

Erich
Old 06-11-2003, 11:34 PM
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Diablo-RCU
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Default Wingspan Limit

Yep, it wasn't a good idea for pattern because the interest is in larger planes. Pattern contests are getting fewer and farther between and in general are suffering from poor attendance. If pattern allowed larger planes that could use gasoline burning engines, they might see some growth in their sport. As it is, pattern requires an $800+ investment in engine and pipe. For that kind of money, you can buy a nice 80cc gas single with muffler. And you don't need to throw $20 toward glow fuel every flying session.

For Imac, the less restrictive the rules are, the better. Expensive planes don't win contests in any class. It's good pilots and practice that wins. Think of it this way. A Steinway piano doesn't make you a musician.
Old 06-11-2003, 11:36 PM
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Kris^
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Default 80" is just right

I look at it this way . .Basic is a "anything goes" class. . no scale requirements, very basic maneuvers, and the ability for pilots from other disciplines,(such as pattern 3D, pylon, etc.) to jump into Scale Aerobatics routines and see how it is. 72-80" is still the most common sizes for about 90% of flyers out there, and about where it starts getting expensive compared to not so expensive. So it stands to reason that the best way to get MORE participation in Basic, and thus more participation a few years later on in higher level classes, would be to encourage easy transition from being a Sunday flyer to a Basic competitor by encouraging the same planes that people fly every day.

Erich is correct about people buying over their head, and then performing poorly against less expensive, but much better flown, planes. There really is little logic NOT to have an 80, or even 90, inch limit in Basic, and the arguments against such a limit always seem to fall back on the "it's the pilots choice what to fly" argument. Yes, it may be their choice, but is it a GOOD choice, especially where a $5-6000 40% plane is concerned ..

Sometimes the wiser and more experienced flyers need to set down a few rules to keep the novice from getting in over his head. .A size limitation in Basic would be, IMHO, just one of those cases.
Old 06-12-2003, 03:00 AM
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Divesplat
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Default Wingspan Limit

I have to disagree with Diablo on the IMAC/Pattern thing.

First off, I fly both, that said lets compare a few #'s

in 2001 the IMAC Nats was the largest ever, 78 pilots I believe.
2002 IMAC Nats, less than 40 pilots
2002 Pattern Nats, over 50 pilots in Masters alone. Not sure of total number.
2001 Pattern Nats, over 110 pilots in attendance.

In Texas, or more correctly South Central.

3 years ago several IMAC contests with >40 pilots, and contests sprouting up all over the place. Most contests at least 25 pilots.
This year, one of the longest running contests with usually 25 pilots, without bad weather, only 8 pilots showed up. Another contest only 10 pilots

Pattern on the other hand is thriving, with several previous IMAC pilots flying Pattern now.

This is not to start an arguement but are simply facts. I cannot respond for other parts of the country. But it is UNTRUE that size limitations are preventing pilots from flying Pattern, but I know of a number of people that won't spend 4-8K on a 33-40% plane to be competitive in IMAC.

I also know personally of 3 fields in the Dallas area that have discontinued IMAC contests due to noise, and overfly area required(mostly rolling circle) Again, this is FACT. Not just rumor or hearsay.

Lastly think about something else. Does the World Aerobatic Championships use IMAC as the ruler, or continue to use Pattern?
Pattern is still the standard. Even the new Artistic Aerobatics use Pattern size planes, not the 150cc monsters(although I love to fly mine.)

Food for thought.

Ed
Old 06-12-2003, 06:36 AM
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Kris^
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Default Wingspan Limit

Good points, Ed. . though not the only ones to consider, and stil a very subjective case. that being noted, FAI is proposing the "Scale AErobatic" class (f3X ?) for up to 3m, 45 lbs and 250cc enignes. It's not just "150cc monsters" anymore. Now it's 200+ cc's 130"+ wingspans and yes, rollers are into the next county and our "Big Boys" take up a larger aerobatic box than the full scale planes a lot of the time. "The Box" is smaller yet the patterns and sequences continue to get "larger" There is really only one way to curtail that problem, fly in closer with a smaller plane.

It seems that a lot of people have gotten over the fascination of BIG planes and are starting to downsize. I, for one, am doing so. Except for a couple of special projects I have on the boards, I won't be going over 110" in the near future and will probably settle into the 35-38% range for competition planes. Much bigger, especially in Basic. just makes no sense. People are starting to pay attention to the practical aspect of smaller planes. . I'm sure the trend toward smalled and tighter will become prevalent.
Old 06-13-2003, 10:31 PM
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Default Wingspan Limit

I fly both Pattern and imac, and I love doing both. however I am still in college and I cant afford the best equipment in either class- I have a 1/4 scale cap, priced about $1200 rtf, and a widebody 60, priced about $900. I fly advanced Imac and pattern. I am much more competitive in pattern because the biggest plane can only be 10" bigger than mine, ignoring the cost. Imac is so expensive, that for a 33% plane would cost near $3000, to have the same competive edge that I have in pattern with a 800-900 dollar pattern plane.
If you are going to go all out, they are both very expensive sports, over 5000 dollars- but for lesser equipment, pattern is a better alternative because of its size restriction. take it for what its worth.
that being said, I enjoy IMAC more, though I CD a pattern every year. (it was last weekend)

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