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2009 Basic Narrative

Old 01-15-2009, 12:11 PM
  #26  
Silent-AV8R
 
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative


ORIGINAL: Bob_S


Seriously though, I wonder if is asking for a "how to properly fly the figure" text instead of a "what is the figure". In the first narrative, he not only gives the how to (pull to vertical, 1/2 roll on the upline etc) but also gives scoring critera.
Unfortunately he included criteria that do no exist in the rule book. Comments about entry and exit altitudes and such.

Aresti is a critical skill to obtain. It is very easy to do as well. But then you also need to have the scoring criteria clearly in your head not only while flying a contest but during practice.

The thing about Aresti is it is faster than talking. Your caller can look at the flimsy and then call it faster than he can read it and say it.
Old 01-15-2009, 01:08 PM
  #27  
Bob_S
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative


ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

The thing about Aresti is it is faster than talking. Your caller can look at the flimsy and then call it faster than he can read it and say it.
I agree. I think what a lot of people are missing is the communication from the caller to the pilot.
Old 01-15-2009, 03:59 PM
  #28  
Danny Baker
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

There won't be time in the contest flight to "call" any scoring criteria such as, "be sure to center this half roll on the downline". Your pilot will be in the ground before you "call" that statement and then call for him to push or pull to exit. There are judging schools going on all over the country over the next two months or so. Check out the IMAC site and you'll see one near you. Have all your guys that you are helping there. Actually it's the pilot that needs to know aresti as well as the coach. The pilot needs to have the scoring criteria in his head as he's flying. This way the "call'' can be shorthand words like in the previous post.
Judging Schools will teach your guys more than you or I can teach them in two months of flying every weekend.
Hope this helps, Dan
Old 01-16-2009, 11:50 AM
  #29  
Zeeb
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

You know as a relative newcomer to IMAC I can appreciate both sides of the arguments presented in this thread.

However it also IMHO, demonstrates one of the critical issues right now and that is consistent judging which folks are now working hard to standardize and that's a good thing.

What isn't good about this thread is that bjames tried to help out newbies or folks who might be interested in learning more about and possibly participating in IMAC. For those people who have read this thread, all you've done is scare 'em off....

I was one of those who was initially of a mind to just forget the whole thing rather than spend time memorizing a bunch of diagrams which meant nothing to me and don't even identify what the manuever is called. Until I found a narrative such as the one posted first in this thread. By going through that and correlating the descriptions of the maneuver with the diagrams, I got started on learning Aresti. Had it not been for that, I'd have just given it a pass. I've experienced the same reluctance I had with other local club members who have either expressed an interest or whom I've tried to introduce to IMAC.

I want to say thanks to bjames for taking the time to do the narrative and get it posted as I've already handed it out to a number of guys who are interested in giving RC aerobatics a try. I'm hoping that someone will continue to post narratives for at least the Basic and Sportsman categories in the future as they've done in the past, they've been a lot of help getting new folks started/interested.

The discussion on the rules and judging is merited, but it ought'a be in a different thread.

JMHO....
Old 01-16-2009, 04:51 PM
  #30  
Danny Baker
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

If it will help anyone out. There is video on Flying Gaints (www.flyinggaints.com) of all the seqences flown. This is video of an airplane actually in the sky doing the manuevers. All classes are flown. Registration to the site is free, it's a site that is very similar to this one. Look under the forums section, Imac forums section, general Imac discussions section, you'll see it.
Old 01-18-2009, 03:19 PM
  #31  
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

Z - I am not sure I understand your concern. Narratives that are helpful tend to be those that are simple decoding of Aresti, such as a the invidual elements that make up a figure. When they get into judging criteria, if they do not follow the language of the rules, they are of little value. What happens though, is that people read them instead of the rules, and the narrative becomes what is quoted, rather than the rule, and that can lead to judging issues. these threads are useful because it brings to light misunderstandng of the rules, and in doing so, creates better judges and better informed competitors. Aresti is a simple and straightforward language, and while i think you can survive in basic without being able to read it, the unknowns in the upper classes pretty much require it. As Danny said, trying to fly a sequence off a narrative is very difficult and requires the caller to be focused on the narrative rather than the flight. Using Aresti only requires a quick glimpse, even for complex figures.

The FAI catalog can be used to construct literally thousands of figures, the larger majority of which do not have names. An Immelman by definition is a half inside loop followed by a half roll. Change the roll to a 1 1/2 snap and it is no longer an Immelman and the caller and pilot need to come up with how it is to be called. Names like teardrop and bowtie are used by convention, but they do not refer to a specific figure, only its outline.

Old 01-18-2009, 06:48 PM
  #32  
Bob_S
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative


ORIGINAL: brknprops
Aresti is a simple and straightforward language, and while i think you can survive in basic without being able to read it, the unknowns in the upper classes pretty much require it. As Danny said, trying to fly a sequence off a narrative is very difficult and requires the caller to be focused on the narrative rather than the flight. Using Aresti only requires a quick glimpse, even for complex figures.
I think it is far more important for the caller to know Aresti than the pilot. After all, the pilot isn't looking at the sheet so it doesn't matter to him whether it is words or symbols. To use your example of unknowns, the pilots may try to memorize the sequence prior to flying it and I'm sure that many can memorize it, but all of them depend on the caller to articulate with words what the Aresti symbols say.

I can read the Aresti and by that alone can figure out what to fly. I think I also know how to fly it based on the rules. (Execution is a different story though! LOL) But the first time I had to call for someone I didn't have a clue what to say. I think this communication is a key part that is missing. "What are the words used between the caller and pilot" is something that is available in very few places. So while it is important to know Aresti, it simply cannot fill that gap.

I'm bringing this up again because Dicksnyder was asking about how to tell a pilot what to fly and also because of my own difficulties in calling for someone. In my opinion, this is a critical communication skill and isn't really illustrated anywhere save a few videos.
Old 01-18-2009, 08:01 PM
  #33  
Danny Baker
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

Most all pilots are also callers for their fellow' pilot. One thing I have learned when I went to "calling" the manuever straight from the aresti sheet is: Now there's time for me to look up and help coach my pilot through the maneuver. As an example, my pilot may not see that his humpty is falling off track since his eyes and his plane are so high up and all he sees is blue sky. I can now tell him, " right rudder over the top", and my pilot will do it, trusting me that I've looked down at the treeline or the runway and determined that he's tracking off. If we are reading text from a written sheet the caller will have not have the same amount of time to give "in the manuever" coaching. I used to call off a sheet of text, switch to calling off the aresti a few years ago. Will never go back. I will say, that when I started out, I called off written text though.
Old 01-18-2009, 08:49 PM
  #34  
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

[email protected]
Old 01-19-2009, 09:55 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative


ORIGINAL: brknprops

Z - I am not sure I understand your concern.
The problem is that these discussions go way overboard toward those individuals who start out wanting to compete.

In my experience and this includes me, I had no intention of going to any contests but wanted to get into the aerobatics as a means to improve my flying skills. There are a number of guys at our club who have started playing around with the basic sequence and telling them up front they've got to learn Aresti first is just a deal killer.

I venture to say that almost all of those who would use a narrative will never go any further than a Basic sequence and not many of them will ever go to a contest. But if we don't try to introduce new folks to this area of the hobby, where will they come from?

While my experience so far has been a mostly good one with meeting some really friendly and helpful people, IMAC also has it's elitists and those who treat a question from a newcomer as not worth answering. In a thread like this, the opinions expressed by some if read by a newbie would just say "you either learn Aresti or don't bother" and that's not what's needed. Those who find the experience fun and or challenging, will go on and find out that they need to learn Aresti and pay attention to the rules and judging criteria. As I said, the disscussion itself has merit and things that need to be clarified are being covered in a manor more suitable to a thread on judging which wouldn't interest most newbies when they're first starting out. In my case, of the six or so individuals who I've introduced to the concept of scale aerobatics, there's only one who MIGHT be interested in this discussion. None of them (I suspect) would do anything with it this year if they had to learn Aresti in order to go out to the field and fly the sequence since there wasn't a narrative available.

Now the guys I fly with who do compete would have their own ideas/opinions about the discussion and might add to it if they saw it, but they most likely won't look due to the thread title. Those who would look due to the thread title are overwhelmed at the complexity of the discussion and the attitudes of some responders.

IMHO, the narrative in the first post ought to be left as a sticky and all this other stuff relegated to a judging thread....
Old 01-19-2009, 11:06 AM
  #36  
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

I disagree, and as a newcomer to imac and pattern, I will need to learn it all too, the thing that concerns me is the terminology between caller and pilot, which is something new to me. I see arresti as being clear concise shorthand for the caller to work with. I also see a lot of value in learning about judging, the criteria, values and demerits etc can only help a pilot to judge himself accurately as he practises. It will give him a good idea as to how he is flying and an help overcome bad habits etc. Not everyone has an advanced level pilot to help him along getting it together either. Is it complicated? I dont think so, but like any competitive sport, its not something you just go and master in 5 minutes either.
Old 01-19-2009, 12:00 PM
  #37  
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

First, Thanks for the BASIC narrative. When I first inquired on here all I wanted was the names of maneuvers.
Like #6 LOOP and #5 Teardrop. I still think the narrative will help my guys. When I showed it to them, they were excited. Yes, I can read the aresti and tell them what to do but this they can study and work on. Having taught hundreds of guys over the last 55 years, think I can still help some more. And I don't think carrying around an Aresti book is best way to get these guys doing. Sure, after a while, they will be using it. But right now, they just need some informative help. And anyone who goes out on a 12 degree day like we did last Saturday here in Dallastown, wants to fly and enjoy it. So I would still like to see a list of other class maneuvers, with or without the narrative, Like I said I just want the maneuver names. If anyone can help me out, my E-mail address is [email protected].
Thanks, Dick Snyeer
Old 01-21-2009, 08:12 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

I used to make fun of my wife, because she plays Mah Jongg, and every year they change the hands. Now she can laugh at me, because every year IMAC changes the sequences. What's good for the goose.......
Old 01-22-2009, 12:35 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

Hello DS,
I did just as you described when I flew in a few events last year. I can read the Aresti but wrote down the manuevers by "common name" for my "non-RC girlfriend" to use when calling for me.

I'm hoping to get to a few more meets this year. I think there are 3 or 4 scheduled pretty close to us in May and early June. If the guys you are "getting into it" come with you to the York Club on Thursdays...I'll have to take off a few days and come over...

Steve
Old 01-27-2009, 12:43 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

Steve,
Will do. Hope we can fly together some this year. What is a flimsy I saw one guy refer up above?
Keep those locknuts tight.
Dick Snyder
Old 01-27-2009, 03:36 PM
  #41  
Danny Baker
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

Flimsy is slang for a call sheet that has been laminated so it can get wet, be laid on the ground, fuel get poured on it, etc. Some take the aresti and laminated it also. Anything laminated that is used as a call sheet.
Old 01-28-2009, 09:59 AM
  #42  
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Default RE: 2009 Basic Narrative

Actually "flimsy" is a term that originated in IAC and it simply refers to the paper printout of the sequence. It does not have to be laminated or anything like that to be referred to as a "flimsy". IAC does not use a call sheet, since the pilot is his/her own caller. The whole idea behind Aresti is that it is an easy to understand depiction of the sequence so the pilot can know what to do on the fly as it were!!

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