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  1. #1

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    Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?


    Are the aircrafts themselves actually judged during an IMAC event? I watched a special on the Top Gun competition, and those were judged on both the aircraft and performance. Is this the same with IMAC?


    Or is all that is required is that the plane be within 10% scale version of a real plane?

    I also looked at a score sheet on IMAC webpage, and there was a box for sound. Is the sound of the plane also judged?

    Thanks,

    Matt

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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?

    ORIGINAL: matt1977


    Are the aircrafts themselves actually judged during an IMAC event? I watched a special on the Top Gun competition, and those were judged on both the aircraft and performance. Is this the same with IMAC?


    Or is all that is required is that the plane be within 10% scale version of a real plane?

    I also looked at a score sheet on IMAC webpage, and there was a box for sound. Is the sound of the plane also judged?

    Thanks,

    Matt
    Matt,

    In IMAC only the sequence being flown is judged. IMAC is all about the pilot but having a properly setup and trimmed plane certainly helps a lot.

    Yes, sound is judged as well. Here is the current rule

    These boxes shall translate in the computer to a score of: Too Noisy - 0, Acceptable – 5, Very Quiet - 10. This score will then be multiplied by the K value for the individual class. If two judges are utilized, both judgesβ€˜ scores must concur to issue a Too Noisy penalty or a Very Quiet bonus. In absence of a Too Noisy or Very Quietβ€– concurrence, an Acceptable will be scored for each sequence flown. If three or more judges are utilized, a simple majority concurrence will issue a Too Noisy penalty or Very Quiet bonus. All Pilots that receive a Too Noisy penalty shall be notified of the penalty by the Contest Director prior to the next round. Pilots that receive a Too Noisy penalty will be allowed to adjust the aircraft setup and fly the next round (Known Unknown). Any pilot, who receives a second Too Noisy penalty during any Known, or Unknown, will be disqualified from further competition at that contest.

    Now it's quite possible to have a plane with a 2-blade prop and standard mufflers and be judged as acceptable using good throttle management

    As far as the 10% rule, that does not apply to the Basic class, only Sportsman and above and then the full scale version of the plane must have flown in a full scale competition at least once. I've never run into a CD (Contest Director) that actually goes through and measures every plane we typically use. In some cases, some of the planes we all fly that are scale representations are not exactly 10% and in some cases are no where near 10%. Sportsman and above is required to have a pilot and dash installed. The pilot is required to be of human form but the dash can be a simple printout from a web site of a dash. I've seen contests won and lost over the 1% penalty that not having the pilot/dash installed

    Basic, is a "bring and fly what you got" type of class (introductory class) so in that respect it's quite a bit more lenient and I've seen 40 size Stik's being used and taking 3rd or even better is some cases. The other area for Basic that's different is that they do not fly an unknown sequence. When everyone else is flying their respective unknown, they get to fly one sequence of their known

    Top Gun is completely different and if you can ever get there to see it, go, you will see some incredible work.
    Bill James

    IMAC NorthEast Regional Director
    2009-2010
    2013-2014

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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?


    ORIGINAL: bubbagates

    ORIGINAL: matt1977


    Are the aircrafts themselves actually judged during an IMAC event? I watched a special on the Top Gun competition, and those were judged on both the aircraft and performance. Is this the same with IMAC?


    Or is all that is required is that the plane be within 10% scale version of a real plane?

    I also looked at a score sheet on IMAC webpage, and there was a box for sound. Is the sound of the plane also judged?

    Thanks,

    Matt

    As far as the 10% rule, that does not apply to the Basic class, only Sportsman and above and then the full scale version of the plane must have flown in a full scale competition at least once. I've never run into a CD (Contest Director) that actually goes through and measures every plane we typically use. In some cases, some of the planes we all fly that are scale representations are not exactly 10% and in some cases are no where near 10%. Sportsman and above is required to have a pilot and dash installed. The pilot is required to be of human form but the dash can be a simple printout from a web site of a dash. I've seen contests won and lost over the 1% penalty that not having the pilot/dash installed


    Top Gun is completely different and if you can ever get there to see it, go, you will see some incredible work.
    I'd like to help clarify a few things. Not to step on Bubba's toes mind you.

    The plane does not have to have flown in full scale aerobatics (IAC). The rule says that it must be capable of flying in the "box" for full scale. This allows some prototype designs like the Shark to be flown in IMAC that never actually flew IAC. Also its not the CD who measures a plane. All the CD has to do is go to the competitor and say your plane does not meet the 10% rule.......Now prove to me it does. It is the competitor's responsibility to prove to the CD that it is within the 10%. But I have yet to hear of one CD in all of IMAC (50 states and few other countries) enforce the rule. It really boils down to if it looks like an Edge/Yak/Extra/Sukhoi etc then its ok. Also size does not matter. You can fly a glo plane .46 or a 60% Bill Hemple Extra. Whatever your budget allows is what size you should fly. Of course bigger planes allow you to fly a little further out, fly a little slower so you don't feel rushed and typically present better. But I've been beat by an Electric Fliton 1.20size plane while I was flying a 35% Katana. That brings us to sound. First the rule states that every plane should be sound checked on the ground, but most CD's don't have the equipment nor the time to check every plane. The rules allow sound to be judged in the air by the guidelines listed above. As for electrics.....they are not automatic 10's. There are some loud electrics out there that deserve 5's and 0's.

    For the pilot/dash.....the rule states a lifelike 3-D pilot and instrument panel. Like was stated you can go extreme or cheap. Alot of guys use the custom dashes and recently more folks are just printing out a dash on photo paper and glueing it in place. The pilot though is tricky. The rule doesn't say it has to be scale to the size of the plane. Also you can't just take a sideshot of your head (left and right) and glue them together on a flat sheet of paper as that is not 3-D. The pilot can be foam, wood, plastic, fiberglass etc. Just needs to be lifelike. This restricts elmo dolls and homer simpsons etc etc from being allowed. A no pilot/dash is a 1% deduction before normalization in scores. So when scores are posted a deduction should have already been applied in what you see.

    Basic is bring what you got. They are still bound by sound/ACS and their specific manuevers but not by the type of plane or pilot figure/dash.



    Top Gun is a scale event. What you see there is building your plane to scale specs (but downsized). Not only doing that, but you also provide documentation of your model's full scale counterpart. Your plane is judged in scale appearance and then you must fly the plane in a scale manner. There is a list of manuevers you can do that you chose from for the judges. It is just as competitive if not more than IMAC......just a whole nother type of R/C is all.
    www.hobbiesxtreme.com

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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?

    Here are the actual rules:

    3. Open Events:
    3.1: The events accommodate aerobatic monoplanes and biplanes which are replicas of types known to have competed in International Aerobatic Club (IAC) competition, or replicas of types known to be capable of aerobatic competition within the airspace know as the ―Box.β€–

    6. Proof of Scale:
    6.1: To prove that the model resembles a particular aircraft some proof of scale is required.
    6.2: Proof of scale is the responsibility of the contestant.
    6.3: The general outlines of the model shall approximate the full size outlines of the subject aircraft. Exact scale is not required. The model shall be judged for likeness at a distance of approximately 10 feet.
    6.4: If the contestant presents no proof of scale material with the model, and the CD can determine that the aircraft is a replica of a full-size aircraft, then the contestant will be allowed to have his/her entry considered.
    6.5: Scale shall be determined by the wingspan. A change in wingspan will become a change in overall Scale. Fuselage width, height and aircraft planform or any other variations shall not exceed 10% of scale, with the exception of airfoils and size/shape of control surface within the scale outline rule.
    6.6: A realistic three-dimensional human pilot and viewable instrument panel shall be appropriately installed in all Scale Aerobatic aircraft. (A one [1] percent flight score penalty will be assessed for noncompliance.)
    I am a little shocked Sam knowing what a stickler for the rules that you are that you have not been judging the planes for scale as Rule 6.3 requires.

    Also note that rule 6.4 clearly states that it is the CD who makes the determination of whether or not the plane is allowed to fly. The contestant is required to provide proof scale and if they do not then the CD makes the call.

    But in the real world, if your plane even remotely resembles any of the typical aerobatic planes you will not have any issues. No judging is done and I have only once seen a plane challenged. It was a pattern plane that despite looking outside the rules actually was legal within the 10% rule as determined by the CD (which in this case was me).
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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?

    Thanks for correcting me guys....mucho appreciato

    I've been making these little but important mistakes lately when explaining things, guess it's time to sit and re-read the books
    Bill James

    IMAC NorthEast Regional Director
    2009-2010
    2013-2014

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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?

    Don't sweat it bubba, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

    And thank you Silent for adding that small correction.


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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?

    Since we are on the subject, I can't think of any stock built aerobatic planes (arfs or kits) that would not be allowed to fly. I know there are a few out there that exceed the 10% rule by just a "pinch", but would fly in a contest without causing concerning. Excuding pattern planes that look somewhat like Extras, what are your thoughts Mr. Bubba and Mr. Silent.?

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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?


    ORIGINAL: Danny Baker I know there are a few out there that exceed the 10% rule by just a "pinch", but would fly in a contest without causing concerning.
    I am not aware of anyone who has actually measured any of the current crop of planes. The guiding principle seems to be if you can look at it and have some clue as to what it is then it is legal. Scale is set by the wingspan and from there you can vary most everything by 10%. You would be surprised how much leeway that gives you!!
    Team Futaba - RClipos.com

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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?

    Danny,

    I've seen both, let's look at a common full Yak 55 airframe (cannot find a pic of the 55 SP in full scale anywhere), they are basically a bubble type canopy with a very short and stubby rudder and no turtle deck. Now take a look at the Comp-Arf Yak 55 SP in the 2.6M, 3M and 3.3M versions, you have a much taller rudder and a turtle deck. Yak 54's are very close to our models as well as some Extra's though I do not know of a full scale Extra, in any version, that has counterbalances where a lot of our models do.

    Now look at the Krill Models Yak 55, very very close to the real thing but since it is initially set by wingspan 10% of everything else leaves a lot of leeway

    I saw in the AMA forum a year or so ago where this 10% was beat to death with a few people picking apart the rule almost line by line and comparing models and the results were interesting. It appeared that most of what we fly are closer to 11% OVERALL, again it's been a while and I really do not feel like trying to find it.

    Honestly, as a CD I do not even worry about the 10% rule, I know that's a bad thing, but I'm not about to tell someone that has a model that is very close that because it's a percent or two out of spec, he/she cannot fly. As a member of this years IRC we actually talked a bit about this and will talk about it more later on.

    If I was judging Top Gun, that would be a totally different story but from IMAC, they do all their own documentation and the builder/pilot must prove it's accurate and scale
    Bill James

    IMAC NorthEast Regional Director
    2009-2010
    2013-2014

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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?


    ORIGINAL: bubbagates
    It appeared that most of what we fly are closer to 11% OVERALL, again it's been a while and I really do not feel like trying to find it.

    Honestly, as a CD I do not even worry about the 10% rule,
    Again, it is not 10% "overall", it is each and every measurement can vary 10%. So once the wingspan has set the scale then you can play with the other dimensions at will. So the fuse can be 10% longer than scale and 10% shorter in height than scale. The vertical stab can be up to 10% higher, or 10% shorter. Same with the horizontal stab. And also with the stab location on the fuse.

    So take a plane at 40% scale as set by the wing span. An Extra 300L at 40% scale will have a wing span of 126.24". The fuse at 40% should be 109.44 inches long, but it could be as short as 98.50 inches or as long as 120.38 inches. That's a range of 21.88 inches, almost TWO full feet difference, and they would both be legal according to the rules. Now add in the same types of ranges in all the other measurements and the possible permutations that you can get by combining them, and you can see where it gets you.

    For instance the fuse could be 90% of the the actual scale in length and 110% of scale height. The stab span could be 110% of scale span and 90% of scale chord. Same goes for the wing. The span cannot be changed, but the chord can. So while the span needs to be 126 inches, the chord could range from 90% to 110% of scale. (average chord at 40% would be 21 inches, so for instance it could range between 18.9 and 23.1 inches on average. And it is actually worse than that since the root chord and the tip chord would be measured differently you can range each of those from 90% to 110% of the actual scale measurement.

    The whole point being that there is an enormous amount of variablility that can be had in these planes and it is not really worth worrying about. If it looks like an Edge, then it's an Edge, or Yak, or Extra, or whatever.
    Team Futaba - RClipos.com

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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?


    ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

    Here are the actual rules:

    3. Open Events:
    3.1: The events accommodate aerobatic monoplanes and biplanes which are replicas of types known to have competed in International Aerobatic Club (IAC) competition, or replicas of types known to be capable of aerobatic competition within the airspace know as the ―Box.β€–

    6. Proof of Scale:
    6.1: To prove that the model resembles a particular aircraft some proof of scale is required.
    6.2: Proof of scale is the responsibility of the contestant.
    6.3: The general outlines of the model shall approximate the full size outlines of the subject aircraft. Exact scale is not required. The model shall be judged for likeness at a distance of approximately 10 feet.
    6.4: If the contestant presents no proof of scale material with the model, and the CD can determine that the aircraft is a replica of a full-size aircraft, then the contestant will be allowed to have his/her entry considered.
    6.5: Scale shall be determined by the wingspan. A change in wingspan will become a change in overall Scale. Fuselage width, height and aircraft planform or any other variations shall not exceed 10% of scale, with the exception of airfoils and size/shape of control surface within the scale outline rule.
    6.6: A realistic three-dimensional human pilot and viewable instrument panel shall be appropriately installed in all Scale Aerobatic aircraft. (A one [1] percent flight score penalty will be assessed for noncompliance.)
    I am a little shocked Sam knowing what a stickler for the rules that you are that you have not been judging the planes for scale as Rule 6.3 requires.

    Also note that rule 6.4 clearly states that it is the CD who makes the determination of whether or not the plane is allowed to fly. The contestant is required to provide proof scale and if they do not then the CD makes the call.

    But in the real world, if your plane even remotely resembles any of the typical aerobatic planes you will not have any issues. No judging is done and I have only once seen a plane challenged. It was a pattern plane that despite looking outside the rules actually was legal within the 10% rule as determined by the CD (which in this case was me).

    You are quite right......though that judging in no way reflects in the scoring which is really what I was referring to. I would say I have been "Judging" scale though as I routinely walk up and down the flight line to ensure there are pilot figures/dashes installed. I have not yet been a CD/contestant where a plane hasn't looked like a full scale. Like everyone says.....10% gives you alot of wiggle room. When it says judged by the CD, it simply means if I, as the CD, look at the plane and can determine its a scale plane then there is no issue. If I cannot, then I would be forced to ask the contestant for proof. If the contestant does not supply the proof then I would have the right to DQ them.

    But thanks for making me more honest. I'm not afraid to read the rules more closely and be sure I'm not doing anything wrong.
    www.hobbiesxtreme.com

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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?

    Bubba, look in airliners.net under Technoavia SP-55m. I read somewhere that the sp is a fully composite aircraft as opposed to the yaks. Im not exactly sure of all the exact details tho......Gene

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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?


    ORIGINAL: bubbagates

    Danny,

    I've seen both, let's look at a common full Yak 55 airframe (cannot find a pic of the 55 SP in full scale anywhere), they are basically a bubble type canopy with a very short and stubby rudder and no turtle deck. Now take a look at the Comp-Arf Yak 55 SP in the 2.6M, 3M and 3.3M versions, you have a much taller rudder and a turtle deck. Yak 54's are very close to our models as well as some Extra's though I do not know of a full scale Extra, in any version, that has counterbalances where a lot of our models do.


    If I was judging Top Gun, that would be a totally different story but from IMAC, they do all their own documentation and the builder/pilot must prove it's accurate and scale
    Hey there Bill... Just to bring you up to speed. The CompArf Yak 55sp is actually a Technoavia SP55m (As Gene mentions above). Here is the latest photo of an Australian full-scale.
    Wayne
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  14. #14
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    RE: Are aircraft themselves judged in IMAC events?

    Thanks guys
    Bill James

    IMAC NorthEast Regional Director
    2009-2010
    2013-2014


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