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Jr Vs Multiplex servos

Old 07-23-2003, 05:43 PM
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3wExtra
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

until now I I have been a firm believer that JR rocked. but at the same time I am kind of concerned about the gears on the 8411s. my question is would you use Multiplex servos, and if so which one. thank you
Old 07-24-2003, 03:04 AM
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3wExtra
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Default can some one coment on this please

I need help, i do not want to jump boat if i am not going to gain anything.
thank you
Old 07-24-2003, 11:38 AM
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Flyfalcons
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

Why are you concerned about the gears in the 8411's?
Old 07-24-2003, 01:05 PM
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mglavin
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

Multiplex makes good servos, we used them for some time. You may gain better service from the gear train but thats about it IMO... I am not familiar with any newer Multiplex servos, I believe there were some new servos on the drawing board, not sure if they hit the market yet.

8411's have gained a reputation for gear train wear in short order as compared to others such as my favorite the Hitec 5945's...
Old 07-24-2003, 02:23 PM
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3wExtra
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Default no HighTec's on my planes

gave them 2 chances. and 2 let downs....one of them big time, a 40 FC lost to it. I just wandered if anyone out there had experience or comments with the multiplex
Old 07-24-2003, 04:22 PM
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Doug Cronkhite
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

You lost a 40% FC to a gear problem with an 8411? Can you explain a bit more please?
Old 07-24-2003, 05:07 PM
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3wExtra
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Default not to JR 8411

but to hightec's. lost controll of my elevator due to 3 servos sticking..... tried to emer landing with trottle but i could not save it
Old 07-25-2003, 01:33 PM
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SitNFly
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

I've used the Royal digital servos on a 1/4 scale H9 Cap. No problems at all. Very durable servos. You can do a small amount of programming if you buy MPX's programmer, but not as versatile as the Hitec unit. Anyway, MPX servos worked well for me; can't comment on how they would work on a larger plane.

Rein
Old 07-26-2003, 04:44 PM
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Aero330LX
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Default 8411's

Hi,
As far as the 8411 gear wear. Yes, I've worn some out...after 500-600 flights and a year and a half of use! Up to that point there was some lash, but it doesn't affect the flying or precision of the plane at all until you put 100's of flights on them. If they wear premuturely, the only reason is becasue they were ganged and they weren't setup right...or the user was more obscessed with a slight amount of lash than what the airplane was flying like. As for Hitec, I've seen all I needed to see from those servos. The in air reprogramming mode (sleep mode after recentering) they come equipped with is something I can do without. There are a vocal few on here who rave about how many servos they've bought from Hitec, and that they've never had failures...great! I'm glad those folks have been that lucky, but after seeing first hand what these things will do to a years work and 10 grand I know I'll never take a risk like that. It would actually be less painful to dig a small hole at the field, take the 10 grand and put it in the hole, and set it on fire. The result would be the same...a smoking hole, and a 10 thousand dollar loss, but you would have all that work and setup that you didn't do, and it would free you up to chuck the Hitecs into the hole along with the 10K that they would have burned anyway. That's like coming out with a free airplane from the deal! Or you could just use good quality servos to begin with and skip all the above. I'll take the little bit of gear wear, and the higher performance, and precision of the 8411 anyday. Like was said by FC... these planes are too expensive to throw bugs into the mix. They can also be dangerous when servos have a mind of their own. I have no reason at all to trust a Hitec product, and I've seen no reason for these continuous failures...if you simply do a search on here you will see that the question has been raised many times, but has never been aswered as to why they do it, other than this date code stuff...sorry to say, the stickers haven't fixed the problem, and haven't answered the question as to why they are still doing it either. Is there any question about the reliability of the JR 8411? Nope Is there on the Hitec's? I think that's abundantly clear! Is it worth the risk? I guess that depends on how much disposable income one has, and how much they like to build.
Old 07-26-2003, 11:06 PM
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mglavin
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

Let’s be honest Tim, you know, I know and others are well aware the 8411’s have rightfully earned the reputation for premature gear train wear. That said some are getting better wear than others. As time moved on I suspect JR realized the problem and may have made changes to the composition of the metal/materials used for the gear train (purely speculation) this may account for the FEW that report 500 flights with nary a bit of wear... Ganged servos do not represent a potential for increased wear if anything they absorb and or mask it with there slight misalignment. The servos most likely to show wear earlier on in life are typically the elevators and ailerons. These servos are supporting the weight of the surfaces typically as most do not mass balance the surfaces. It’s also pretty common for modelers to mechanically setup their models for massive throws with huge surfaces. Long arms and short control horn pivots contribute to less the ideal mechanical advantage setups which place more work on the gear train. In short there are several factors that can and will affect gear train wear, I mentioned only a few.

Since you are not personally using the Hitec 5945’s how is you can offer so much insight on their viability? Some of us have used both extensively and have learned for ourselves from hands on use what is holding up better. You are continually spill hearsay and miss-information with regard to various products that are apparently not up to your standard and you openly suggest you’ve seen this and that, but are lacking the actual specific knowledge of use and abuse but feel you have enough info to point fingers and talk about burning holes of dollars, time and earth. There is something to be said for hands on experience. You’re pretty passionate about your beliefs and that is fine in my book, however I tire of the continual mauling you present of things you have know specific experience with! Furthermore there are hundreds and hundreds of satisfied users of these products that you dislike and dishonor with your unsubstantiated hearsay that report excellent results, what does this all mean?

“Or you could just use good quality servos to begin with and skip all the above. I'll take the little bit of gear wear, and the higher performance, and precision of the 8411 anyday.”

You're kidding right? Why do you believe the 8411 is of a higher quality, because it costs more and is purported to be, name recognition or maybe perceived value? Does quality equate to needed repairs or lack thereof? What about the higher performance and precision? Kindly qualify this rhetoric. Since you have not used the 5945’s I’d find it hard to justify anything you offer as evidence.

“I have no reason at all to trust a Hitec product, and I've seen no reason for these continuous failures...if you simply do a search on here you will see that the question has been raised many times, but has never been aswered as to why they do it, other than this date code stuff...sorry to say, the stickers haven't fixed the problem, and haven't answered the question as to why they are still doing it either.”

Again you are ill informed and offer miss-information and have no specific knowledge of any of the above. If you do a search with respect to Hitecs Digitals you’ll find the answers. There were some issues when Hitec first released the digital that was simply an oversight on their part with regard to how other manufacturers equipment could and would transmit control signals outside of the programmed recognized limits of their NEW digital servos, it was realized and fixed. This problem has not been realized since. More specifically if you look for info on the 5945’s you’ll find very little info on failures, certainly substantially less than 8411’s.. The only other substantiated problem with Hitec’s digitals has been with their 5645’s, 3-pole digital amplified standard servo. These had some problems with the motors, IMO. Whatever the problem, it has been recognized and dealt with.

“Is there any question about the reliability of the JR 8411?”

Absolutely without doubt there have been problems, you want me to qualify my beliefs or should we just agree that they have their problems much like anything else available.

“Is there on the Hitec's?”

Just like the rest there can and will be problems with reliability, to date none of my partners have realized any reliability problems, nor have I.

“I guess that depends on how much disposable income one has, and how much they like to build. ”

You’ve made references repeatedly to the dollars, time and so fourth one is flying around. I’ll offer a simple FACTUAL statement with absolutely no hearsay or fluff; I nearly lost two of those $10,000 aircraft you mention using 8411’s that failed in flight. I have seen several that were not so lucky! Seen even more with servo failures of some sort or another… Sometimes it’s the servo other times it the user and or set-up or installation that leads to a problem. That said it happens, BUT there is no more reason to believe a Hitec 5945 will lead to the demise of your model than an 8411. Simple as that, the FACTS support this easily. I own four Carden 40%, one A/W 40%, two 33% models and lot’s of more small stuff equipped with Hitec digitals. My partners have similar stables with Fiber Classics, A/W models and more, again equipped with Hitec Digitals. I/we don’t have money to BURN and equip our models with what we believe works best.
Old 07-27-2003, 12:07 AM
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Cody-RCU
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

I have had absolutely NO problems whatsoever with Hitec products. My 31% AW Extra has Hitecs all around and it performs flawlessly. I can't say that the servos are the best on the market as I have no experience with Futaba, JR, or Airtronics digis, but I do know that they have been excellent for me, and I DO put a lot of stress on them. The only complaint that I have is a mild amount of slop, but this really doesn't affect the flight performance. Aero330LX, it's fine to show loyalty to a brand, but to flame something else in a condemning manner with gross generalizations and a lack of experience is unnecessary, rude, and downright childish.
Old 07-27-2003, 12:39 AM
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JohnVH
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

Wont find any hitecs in my expensive models, I use and trust the JR servo's. I have seen and heard enough that I wont buy them. I use their mini servo's, the HS81MG's for a smaller model.
I have 8411's in my 33%, 65 flights and no gear slop at all. And that is 3D throws. Mine dont jitter on the ground like others I have seen.

This is my opinion and preference.
Old 07-27-2003, 01:18 AM
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T_Hill
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

Michael,

It's funny how none of the JR guys remember the crashes blamed on 8411's when they came out. They don't remember the recall of the high speed counterpart because of the motors burning out. Were the 8411SA recalled because the heli guys were stripping them. But the guys who claim that 5945's crashed their planes will still be blaming the "cheap Hitec" servos for their crash 10 years from now. I don't fly Hitec because they are cheaper. I fly them because they are better in every respect. I would pay more for the Hitec than the JR. I've not seen an 8411 make it passed 60 flights before the control surface movement is obvious in the air.

Tracy Hill
Old 07-27-2003, 01:20 AM
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JohnVH
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

And on the other side I have not seen one not make it around here.
Old 07-27-2003, 02:02 AM
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shill
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

JohnVH

Then you and the guys around you must not fly 3D as hard or often as you might make it seem, in some of your other posts. Or you are not very observant of the control surfaces when the plane is in the air. Another note to all of this is please tell me why JR was or is still telling the sponsored pilots that the servos needed new gears after 40 to 50 flights and they should send them in for this.


Steve Hill
Old 07-27-2003, 02:20 AM
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mglavin
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

Below are some of the common problems we experienced with 8411's. As of this time I believe most of these problems have been addressed and may now be non existent. Like other manufacturers JR recognized short comings and addressed them as they were realized. Servos evolve from use, the end result is failure and upgrades. All manufacturers experience the same thing, time tells all.

I want to make it perfectly clear that I believe JR's-8411 are good servos and I am in no way bashing them. I'm simply sharing my/our real world experiences with these servos.

#1 Premature gear train wear and or excessive slop!

#2 Miss-matched centers and end-points. I have literally had 30-40 of these things on the bench in an attempt to cherry pick those which could be used together with ailerons, elevators and ganged rudders. Matchboxes and the like solved this dilemma.

Rumor has it that JR has decided that programmable high speed, high torque servos are a desirable features and are in the works! These will be JRs ultimate Digital servo and their weapon of choice for aerobatic airframes in the future.

#3 Pins which are used to hold the gears in place dislocated or breaking free of the plastic servo case top. This was subsequently remedied with retrofitted case tops.

#4 Motors failing.

#5 Amplifiers failing.

#6 Excessive current draw overheated wiring systems and melted/damaged connectors and wire insulation. This may have been caused by #4 or #5 above or not, as this occurred several times and the servos still worked but were replaced.

#7 Damage to the primary gear from the slightest impact or shock, required gear set replacement. I think they eventually changed the material used for this gear.

#8 Service or repairs on these things was killing me. Rarely were things covered. Gear sets never were, something about normal wear and tear.

#9 Warranty including gear set replacement was finally extended to 3 years. Most likely due to the competition.
Old 07-27-2003, 02:30 AM
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

Remember what I said in my post about "the vocal few"? There's your sign. They always pull the "insert into" trick. In other words, the above individual is putting words into my mouth and twisting the post around from it's intent.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that a servo that goes full hardover and stays there is a failure. You sure as he-- don't have to own one to figure that out either. Yes, it happens on the 5945's and if the date code stickers fixed the problem then why is it still happening? Aw, almost forgot...it's the users fault! Mmmmhmmm, that's exactly why the guys that bought these and had these same issues are no longer using them. I don't know about everywhere, but I do know that ones I have seen were definitely not the users fault and it's almost painfully funny that folks seem to blame a user that they don't even know who it is. I guess these people are just lying...they really don't wanna fly, they just bought this stuff to complain...yeah, that's what it is. As far as the last response to me about the failures on here at RCU it's laughable...it really is. I can type in Hitec Servo Failures and get 15 pages of hits on that string alone and they are all (with the exception of a few) saying they have had or seen the exact same things! I can get not one thread much less a page or 15 pages on 8411 failures. As for brand loyalty well, anyone who thinks that about me has no clue. I've been in this for 19 years now and I'm well above that! The main reason I'm using JR is real simple...I've flown it 17 of the 19 years I've been in R/C and haven't had one issue with the equipment...not so much as a glitch, and I have seen the same thing with everyone around me. On the flipside of that, I go out to the field to see these "updated" hitecs and get the fear of god put in me, and then come on here to find out that it's happening to the majority of others. When Hitec can come up with an answer about why these things are recentering in the air and a fix they may be worth a look. If anyone thinks that I'm gonna blow sunshine and recommend something I know for a fact has already crashed airplanes they must be out of their mind! I would really like to hear from anyone that can tell me they've seen a JR servo recenter itself and then take a nap...ah shoot! dagonnit I forgot again, the date code fixed the problem...rrrright!
Old 07-27-2003, 02:43 AM
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JohnVH
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

Originally posted by shill
JohnVH

Then you and the guys around you must not fly 3D as hard or often as you might make it seem, in some of your other posts. Or you are not very observant of the control surfaces when the plane is in the air. Another note to all of this is please tell me why JR was or is still telling the sponsored pilots that the servos needed new gears after 40 to 50 flights and they should send them in for this.


Steve Hill
We fly our equip as much as we can. And as hard as we can. We are not TOC winners. We just have fun. And, I am going off what I see at the field, in the enviroment I fly in. Thats how I get my conclusion. You can get yours another way, thats fine.
Old 07-27-2003, 05:00 AM
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mglavin
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

Remember what I said in my post about "the vocal few"? There's your sign. They always pull the "insert into" trick. In other words, the above individual is putting words into my mouth and twisting the post around from it's intent.

Tim

What are you talking about? What was your intent, if not to bad mouth Hitec Digital servos? You made several comments of which most are inaccurate, ancient history and or full of misleading information. I have no desire to edit your misgivings. I have issue with nothing more than your misguided trivia.

Yes, I am one of the vocal few that are aware the Hitec Digital servos, there are many more. I think most satisfied users just don’t care if the unknowing preach of things that have no experience with. I’m not one of them! What I really enjoy are the guys that have the “fear of God attitude in them” when I hit the tarmac with my Hitecs. I mean really, c’mon Tim you’ve never witnessed one the thousands of 8411’s failures. If an when I ever loose a GS model (it hasn’t happened yet) and I can contribute it to the servos in use, I will simply realize it was my time nothing more. Like I said previously all of this stuff is subject to failure, my experience has been different that yours, yet I don’t beat dead horses. When you have personally purchased, setup, installed and experienced a problem with these servos then you will have some credibility to go along with your wining. Until such time allow the rest of to relax and enjoy our hobby and leave religion at home.

I am currently not aware of any of the 5900 servos experiencing the hard over phenomena. Like I said this was addressed with software revisions. Did you see this happen currently and how many times are you suggesting it has happened that you are intimately aware of?

You have to consider what’s going on within these servos, they incorporate NEW cutting edge technology (at least to us), thus there has been some teething problems. The hard over problem that was initially realized and subsequently addressed with software revisions is the only 5900 series problem I am aware of. Several problems have been realized with the individual installation that may go unnoticed with the less evolved 8411 digital amplifiers. Some of these problems are low quality mis-matched standard connectors and wyes, poor designed and implemented power supplies (allowing severe voltage degradation), linkage incorrectly setup which allows things to bind hard over if over rotated (seen this many times and is a problem with any servo, you know like short servo arms and to much ATV), ill tuned TX’s which transmit outside of the acceptable parameters of the digital amplifier. In summarry these servos may require greater attention to detail and installation, but these same things are paramount regardless of the servos used, IMO.

I am not suggesting that the hard-over phenomena does not happen as I am aware of it by virtue of the Internet and two documented cases early on the release of the Hitec Digitals. I have never experienced it, seen it and do not know personally anyone that has.

And yes there are lot’s of pages of information with regard to the full line of Hitec Digital servos, it’s a slanted search comparison for sure; Hitec Digitals verses 8411’s. Very few problems have been attributed to the 5900 series, most of the posts are related to the problems associated with the 5600 series and or have provided learning information for those interested. Many resolve their problems and find the servos are not at fault (see the info above), alas there have been many issues with the 5600 series and failures, this I accept.

There is room for all of us at the field, even the guys with things we don't find favor with. There is no reason to belittle those that find useful products outside of the GQ click. Lastly JR servos do not have an unblemished service and or quality history, accept it!
Old 07-27-2003, 06:16 AM
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

I agree the programmability idea is nice but hardly "cutting edge"

Frankly I like the idea of a radio that can have every servo on a separate channel and adjust them that way. Which is the one thing that I wish my Stylus had. It is also the reason that I am thinking of going to the Multiplex Royal Evo when (or if) it becomes available over here.


but more to the point I deleted my previous post because this is suppose to be a thread about multiplex and Jr servos....not a p!@#$%^ match about Hitecs..

both of you guys grow up and stick to the topic.
Old 07-27-2003, 07:39 AM
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

How many times do I have to say that I have SEEN this happen? Are you calling me a liar on here? Huh? I'd like to know what you seem to think is innacurate about that! Misguided trivia? That just shows the RCU world that you have a one track mind, and regardless of what anyone else says Glavin is always right. I used to think like that...when I was 16! The fear of god I was referring to had nothing to do with religion belive me...it had to do with that feeling of "where is that plane gonna end up" when the guy yelled "HEADS"! You know that feeling when you hear that of trying to run in two different directions at the same time? Ever heard that yelled out before? It means in plain english "pick your chin up and watch this plane because 'I ain't got it' ". Since we are talking about factual info. and heresay, where'd you come up with the heresay that there were 1000's of 8411 failures? Do you have anything at all to back up that claim? In answer to your question, No, I have seen no failures that resulted in the loss of a model with these. I've seen one that the main gear got stripped when the aileron was banged on a FC 2.6 330 that had the servo arm locked from moving it all the way to full travel to clean around it. I've also seen a few that were plum wore out, but after a year or more and 100's of flights that's to be expected. Other than that, all I have seen from them is them working flawlessly, and around here that's alot of servos as JR stuff is flown almost exclusively. I don't have to purchase some defective servo to have any credibility when I've already seen what happens with my own two eyes. I'm sorry to hear you're not aware that this is happening and haven't seen it, but let me re-iterate again...I HAVE! What is this new "cutting edge technology" stuff? I haven't seen the first thing out of these that was cutting edge...all I have seen is a multitude of bugs that even you wrote almost a paragraph about, along with the bit about the "less evolved JR amp"...hmmmm... you mean the Mitsubishi amp? That one? LOL Do you seriously believe that a company like Hitec has the knowledge base of a giant like Mitsubishi? Holy cow man, I about flipped out of my chair when I read that. I do have one thing I'd like to retract though on this thread, and then I'm done with it. The Hitec Digitals and 8411 thing was pretty slanted, so I guess I should've said Hitec Digitals/ JR digitals. Or if you like 5945/8411...gotta be fair about these things.
Old 07-27-2003, 03:02 PM
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3wExtra
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Default guys?

WHY do bring Hitech into the equation? I asked about the JR Vs MULTIPLEX. and for whatever reason I did not and Will not consider Hitech for this project. please stick to JR an Multiplex, no futaba, not hitech, not fma, not whatever else is out there.
thank you to both sides of the Hitch-jr for their "unbiased" recommendation.
Old 07-27-2003, 03:17 PM
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JohnVH
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

The only multiplex I have seen here was a big rudder servo, dont know the numbers, but it would not center worth a darn. He paid alot for that thing too. The linkages were tight, the servo was tight, it just didnt come back to center each time.
Old 07-27-2003, 05:12 PM
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Default Jr Vs Multiplex servos

For what its worth, I think that the 8411 is simply the best all round servo. Yes, there have been failures here and there, but for the no. of people i see that are happy with them, versus the no. of people that are not, it really is the only servo that I would cconsider for a giant scale. beleive me, I researched alot of options, and in the end, the only one that I was happy with, was the 8411. I even gave up my Futaba brand loyalty, which says ALOT!
Old 07-28-2003, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: guys?

Originally posted by FC26
WHY do bring Hitech into the equation? I asked about the JR Vs MULTIPLEX. and for whatever reason I did not and Will not consider Hitech for this project. please stick to JR an Multiplex, no futaba, not hitech, not fma, not whatever else is out there.
thank you to both sides of the Hitch-jr for their "unbiased" recommendation.

For what its worth, I have been using Multiplex gear for the last 25 years and never had an issue with them.

I will not compare them to JR since I have never used JR equipment.

I used the first generation digitals which by the way they were the first digitals on the market, and then the second generation digitals which were the first programmable servos, and now using the 3rd generation digitals. I think I will continue using them.

This is not to say that JR is not good , only that I haven't use them so I can't compare.

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