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Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

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Old 03-30-2012, 06:06 AM
  #1  
Diego Doctor
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Default Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

Hi everyone, any news on Eric!!!

We are having some problems here in Brazil with a kero start Rhino, and no answer from Eric since 03/10!!!

We tried Juan as well at the factory but no answer as well since 03/23!!!

We are trying to dowload the data from the ECU with the new cable and program from Xicoy, but no good, any one already use this cable?

Eric I´m put here a copy of your e-mail, please reply as soon as possible!!!!!

Thanks!!!!

Vinicius:
I am sorry my friend. . .when it flamed out, did you see a puff of smoke or smoke trail ? Did you look at hand held data terminal after you got the jet back to see the "error" code. If so, do you remember the numbers?
Flame out is usually fuel related. Can you take a picture of both of your solenoids (fuel and kero burner K ) and send to me?
Michel is operation our new service center. Are you saying he is not helping ?
We will get this resolved my friend. . .please keep communicating. I look forward to your answers.
Regards,
Eric
In a message dated 3/9/2012 6:35:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mfvinicius@uol.com.br writes:

Hi Eric,
Yes,I didsee smoke behind, after the flamed outtwice.
The message that's apears in Data are "FLAMEOUT".
I havepersonallydone a fine combatthe entire assemblyof this aircraft,item by item, andthere's nothingwrong, at leastwith the plane andits assembly,all the goods therearenewand the installation wasdone by a professionaltemplate, I guaranteetoyou.
I Checked Mainly the temperature sensor, because the msg displayed.
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Old 03-30-2012, 06:13 AM
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jbenko
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!


Diego - Just in case you haven't tried it, have you purged/reprimed your fuel pump? Everytime I've had wierd flameout problems, purging the bubbles from the pump/solenoid/fuel line solved it.

Just thought I'd mention it.

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Old 03-30-2012, 07:58 AM
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

Diego. . .

I am right here. . .waiting on your email response to the questions I needed to have answered. Also, Michel in Brazil is authorized to service Jet Central turbines.

Flame out without smoke is a result of the ECU commanding the turbine to shut down. Flame out with smoke is surely an air bubble as a result of something in the fuel system. With the "flame out" error code, did you note the temperature ? Does the flame out happen at a specific time point during the flight?

The thermo couple or perhaps the fuel solenoid could be intermittent. . .

Please advise what you would like to do. I am in the office today and every day unless otherwise advised.

Best regards,
Eric
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Old 03-30-2012, 07:01 PM
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

Just a head up, if you are using a UAT tank, this can be an issue as well. I have seen larger turbines pull so hard on the fuel system that small air bubbles form in the tank, and eventually into the turbine. Make sure when the turbine is at full power the sides of the UAT do not pull in. Hopefully you find out what the issue is.
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:02 PM
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Vinicius Almeida
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

Hello Eric, look for the dates,

Mensagem original
De: Vinicius Almeida < mfvinicius@uol.com.br >
Para: JetArtesSales@aol.com
Assunto: Re: Rhinno 170 s/n de 05/05/2011; Serial Number JF 170-422 invoice 2180
Enviada: 12/03/2012 10:14


Hi Eric,
Yes, I did see smoke behind, after the flamed out twice.
The message that's apears in Data are "FLAME OUT".
I have personally done a fine comb at the entire assembly of this aircraft, item by item, and there's nothing wrong, at least with the plane and its assembly, all the goods there are new and the installation was done by a professional template, I guarantee to you .
I Checked Mainly the temperature sensor, because the msg displayed.
Follow atached the pictures like you asked.
Just for your information, I don't do the download because I don't have the cable for this new FADEC.
I hope to count on your collaboration again.

I thank you,
VinĂ*cius Almeida
mfvinicius@uol.com.br

55 61 8117-0678
55 61 7814-0563
ID: 55*88*9710






Em 10/03/2012 12:39, JetArtesSales@aol.com escreveu:

Vinicius:
I am sorry my friend. . .when it flamed out, did you see a puff of smoke or smoke trail ? Did you look at hand held data terminal after you got the jet back to see the "error" code. If so, do you remember the numbers?
Flame out is usually fuel related. Can you take a picture of both of your solenoids (fuel and kero burner K ) and send to me?
Michel is operation our new service center. Are you saying he is not helping ?
We will get this resolved my friend. . .please keep communicating. I look forward to your answers.
Regards,
Eric
In a message dated 3/9/2012 6:35:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mfvinicius@uol.com.br writes:
Dear Eric,
I bought witch you a Rinno 170, kero start, S/N 422, INVOICE # 2180 in 05/2011.
I flew 07 times and had two flameout.
I talked to Michel representate from Jet Central here in Brazil, but that the guy does not solve anything.
Unfortunately I dont now more confident to fly more with this engine.
What should I do, to resolve that's the problem?
I live in Brazil.
Thanks for your help,

VinĂ*cius Almeida
mfvinicius@uol.com.br

55 61 8117-0678
55 61 7814-0563
ID: 55*88*9710
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:33 PM
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Vinicius Almeida
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

Follow some of the photos of the assembly of UL !
Detail, I am almost two months without fly my plane because of the engine !
Thanks for your Help ! ! !
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:37 PM
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Vinicius Almeida
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

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Old 04-01-2012, 06:39 PM
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Vinicius Almeida
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:08 AM
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

In the picture it looks like you have tygon tubing from the UAT. You may want to change that.
I had a flame out once with my rhino. I removed all tygon and replaced with 6mm festo. The tygon was too soft.
I was also collapsing the standard BVM UAT. Changed it out to a MAP High Flow. Not a problem since.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:46 AM
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

Venicius:

Your install from what I can see in the pictures is very good. However, in two of the pictures with the T fitting, there is a clear picture of air in the lines immediately before/after. That air bubble will shut the turbine down. Another question: The flame out with smoke happens when? Is it about the same time during the flight ? If so, this tells us when the fuel reaches a certain level, air enters the system. I would check (yes, I know you have) this as well. We have a customer with an Ultra Bandit who flamed out after 4 minutes in the flight. The cause was the pick up tubing inside one tank had come off resulting in immediate air and shut down as the fuel stopped flowing. Last, are your tanks in series or parallel ?

Please know we will do what ever it takes to resolve this. If you suspect the fuel solenoid for example, bypass it to test. I strongly suggest you do not bypass this permanently. . .just for the test.

Sincerely,
Eric

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Old 04-02-2012, 05:46 AM
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Diego Doctor
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

Hi Eric!!!

Thank you for the response, That´s how a service should be!!!

The tanks are in paralell, we will try to bypass the solenoid and check the tanks as well.

We send the turbine to Michel as well so he could do some of more tests.

Best Regards

Diego Marques.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:06 AM
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George
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

Just a couple of observations;

1. I see "zip ties" on the UAT at the fill and tank-side lines. When the zip-tie is pulled tight, it can possibly cause the line to pull up into the "corner" the zip-tie produces when you pull it through the locking mechanism.

2. I do not see and safety wire on any of the "T"s. This is definitely personal preference, but could be a potential area to look as well.

3. It's hard to tell from the pics, but how tight is the bend coming from the center (out) of the UAT?

Just my opinions.

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Old 04-02-2012, 09:08 AM
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

Just another observation, The two Festo's flush mounted on your panel marked " JET-A " and "SMOKE ", are those fill ports for the fuel and smoke systems ??? If so, the Festo on the Jet-A fill port may be sucking air, as it goes direct into the UAT. We had a fill plug suck air and it shut down the turbine. In that case, the UAT was completely empty. That being said, In my big F-18 I use a Large DuBro fill port, but I have it backed up with a 6mm Festo valve in line to the UAT. .. Open to fill, close to run. Looks like you have that setup on your main on/off fuel to the turbine on you panel too. I would add another on/off festo between the fill port and UAT to take the fill port out of the equation while running. I just don't trust a Festo check valve with suction on one side and atmosphere on the other. That Pump/Engine is sucking pretty good and is looking for path of least resistance, and that be air !! It will find it if it's there !!!


Good Luck !!!

Dan Massey
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:49 AM
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

Diego. . .

My friend, I do not think it is anything to do with the turbine. Both GEORGE and rcjetsaok are personal friends, extremely knowledgeable and have a good eye for things to check. They both point out very good observations which if corrected will eliminate most if not all possibilities of air leaks. Each of us are modelers which to an extent, creates the engineering mind within us, necessary to figure out each installation so while complex, works well and without issue. I do know it is a "time" project to check everything, but worth it.

Thank you for the email you sent. It is being reviewed today.

Kind regards,
Eric
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:47 PM
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Default RE: Rhino problems!! WHERE ARE YOU ERIC!!!

Okay folks, I understand the placement of you, but the truth is this, I removed the Jetcentral Rhinno thats has 02 flamed out during 05 flights, the plane and put a Jet Cat 180, and the plane is flying very well with the same assembly that saw you guys ! So I believe do not be a problem with the plane installation ! thans for your Help !
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