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Rabbit problems

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Old 07-21-2012, 09:19 PM
  #1  
essyou35
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Default Rabbit problems

Eric, I left you a message and sent a PM, but wanted to post my issues here to give you a heads up.

About a month ago I ran my turbine up on a test stand, no issues at all.

So I installed the turbine into the f-16. First problem is when I give stick commands such as aileron, the ECU shows RPM. So I fixed by giving ECU its own 2s LIFE, by hooking LIFE into the Aux Radio input, and on the throttle input remove the red wire from the cable. However, I still get "glithes" on the screen, in that it looks like pixels randomly light up all over, just dimly though. Also, it appear there are RPM fluctuations when running, when it is idle at 42K, the rpm my jump to over 50K really fast then back down, but turbine did not spool up.

After some tries, I got turbine to run, I let idle for about 4 minutes. Now I could run to 1/2 throttle and above that, everytime it would flame out. ECU would just say "low RPM" and not start cooling cycle, I had to manually start the cycle.

So I hooked fuel line directly into a 2L bottle, bypassing fuel tanks, filters, and UAT. Same issue.

The jet is a f-16 with a big shroud that goes under the turbine. I removed this and realized fuel lines may of been slighty pinched, but not enough to leave a dent in the lines. I run up again tonight and this time I got full thottle fine. I shut the turbine down with the trim but ECU says flameout.

It is giving lot more flames then I remember on test stand, and also wehn I increase throttle I get flames, then they dissapear, every time I ramp up throttle I get some flames for a couple seconds.


Also, one thing to note, I got wierd error ont eh ECU just one time, it said "OVERLOAD", I reset it and it was fine. Only 2s Life was used, and 3s LIFE for the turbine (stock battery).

I will try to reroute fuel lines, and put shroud back in and try again. So I far I only got full throttle with shroud off.

Can a slighty pinched fuel line cuase a flameout? I thought it would just cause it to not get full power.

One other odd thing, I have a K80 and it does not do this, but durgin warmup, when it switchover, the turbine "pulses", perhaps this is normal.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:22 PM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

I forgot to mention, there were never any air bubbles. I only get white smoke after turbine shuts down, before cooling cycle. PW on the pump looked normal to me as well.
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Old 07-22-2012, 03:41 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

essyou35:

First, UNDO the secondary battery and install the system as shown on the diagrams within the manual. Replace the throttle cable you modified with a complete new cable. It is totally normal to see erratic RPM readings displayed on the HDT after turning on the airborne system. As soon as start is initiated and starter engages, you will note RPM is actual and not erratic. The turbine system you received has been well tested as designed. If you make changes to any installation or component, you are on your own. . .

Second, re train the transmitter and ECU. . .Do exactly what the commands are, then enter by using the + .

Make sure the supplied battery for the ECU is fully charged.

Make sure the battery type ( within the START parameters) is set correctly

When the above are complete. . .and the system is set up exactly as shown in the diagram, initiate a start sequence. Should any issues arise, note them and let us know.

Regards,
Eric
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Old 07-22-2012, 06:19 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Eric, I mentioned if I power the ECU from the RX, then the RPM reads as high as 180K just by applying aileron. When I was trying to run it, it would give an error due to the RPM being so erratic. A search of the forum shows others having this issue with digital servos and a Capacitor, or a second life it used to solve the problem, which it did solve that problem.

I will do some more work today but are you saying that I cannot power the ECU from the AUX radio port? Powering it from the RX will not work as the ECU due to the noise from the digital servos.
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Old 07-22-2012, 06:52 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Keep the RPM wires separate from all others in the install.
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Old 07-22-2012, 08:33 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Just wanted to mention so far I got it work with everything installed back in. The issue it seems the main fuel line was getting pinched slightly, so it woudl flame out above half throttle, very strange. Also it seems to forget idle rpm, it will idle at 42000 then after a full run up will idle at 55000 so will do some more testing. I did a test with the installed fuel system no issues it seems.

Pump PW is around 55-65 at idle.
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:31 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

essyou35:

It is very important not to second guess engineering of our system. ECU power for turbine operation comes from the supplied battery which you now say you have installed. Please check in the START menu parameters you have the correct battery selected.

The secondary power for the ECU comes through the THROTTLE channel on the RX. DO NOT use any other source or channel for this. Connect the throttle channel to the ECU throttle port with the connector supplied. . .or an extension while making sure the polarity remains constant. This works perfectly UNLESS you have a radio issue. . .it is not our system

Once set up properly, I strongly suggest you retrain Tx and ECU exactly as shown via the manual. DO NOT do this any other way. When complete, then menu up one scree to verify pulse/% are within acceptable limits. This training must be done PRIOR to any throttle curves being set in the Tx.

After running (because the ECU has had much to compensate for) run the turbine at full throttle until RPM reaches preset max and PW is STABLE. Then reduce slowly (at 5 second intervals) the throttle until you reach idle. This allows the ECU to again learn the operation of the turbine.

Regards,
Eric

PS: We simply do not have "noise" issues or static issues with our system when installed in accordance with the manual.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:09 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Eric plz cqll me asap so we can discuss
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:24 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems


[quote]ORIGINAL: BluFox

PS: We simply do not have ''noise'' issues or static issues with our system when installed in accordance with the manual.
[/quote

Sorry Eric. I don't agree with you. My HDT does the same thing, and the LCD readout flickers constantly across the whole screen. And this is it just sitting on the bench test with no servos attached. Seeing RPMs sitting at 64k prior to a start seems odd to me, but hey, if you say it's normal, then so be it. For me, it should read "0".
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:39 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

My RPM now reads 0 if I do not power the ECU using the Rx. Eric, I will plug a life into the throttle channel but it will be a different life than the one powering the RX. I am not trying t re-invent the wheel at all, however I can assure you if I power the ECU from the RX as designed I will have so much noise in the RPM Readings the turbine will not even start. It has nothing to do with the cable either, I eliminated that cause.

I am sl not saying your system has noise in it, but rather it is susceptible to noise in the power line, especually from hitech digital servos. Perhaps many people use a powerbox for this reason?
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Old 07-22-2012, 06:39 PM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

essyou:

Again, it is normal for the RPM to jump around when you turn the switch (airborne) to the on position. Again, when you initiate "START" the RPM settle down and read accurately.

Should you decide to NOT use the supplied JR style connector from the throttle channel in the Rx to the Throttle channel in the ECU, you are on your own. The ECU derives its power from the ECU battery with secondary power from the Rx throttle channel to the ECU throttle channel port. We strongly advise these connections not be changed. With this connection changed, the ECU may read "Rx power fail" or Rx Signal lost. Last, without this connection, you will not be able to train the Tx to the ECU.

Regards,
Eric
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:40 AM
  #12  
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Eric, I was hoping you would call me but help me out here. With everything hooked up per the manual:"

-The RPM can reas as high as 185K or low as 23k when I give stick input on the radio. If I unplug servos, then this does not happen meaning this is caused by servo noise.
-Once I start the turbine, it will filter out the noise correctly and read the correct RPM? Even with stick input?

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Old 07-24-2012, 01:37 PM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Don't know that I have seen this on any of my Jet Central turbines. Have you tried a different receiver just to eliminate that as a possibility?
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:08 PM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

essy, can you post a video, maybe from your phone of what is happening?
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:36 PM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Guys, I went out and did some testing, before I go to start mode, I can cause major fluctuations in the RPM readings by moving ailerons and elevators. I had trouble starting it once installed and assumed this was the issue, so I powered the ECU by its own LIFE lipo, not through the Rx, which works great. But I will still flaming out at 1/2 throttle. Turns out some small pressure on the main fuel line was causing this.


I just now put the ECu back under power from the RX. Same issue with the RPM, however once running it does not have as big of effect, but some. I get jumps from 42000RPM to over 50000 for a half second then it drops down, the turbine did not really change RPM.

So eric was right, once running the noise from the servos is not an issue.

Eric, can you ask your engineers, if they install a small capacitor on the RPM wire, all noise will be filtered out and RPM will read 0 when motor not moving.

Also Eric, I think you misunderstood what I was doing, as you mentioned what could happen such as not being able to train the RX. All I did is plug a life into the ECU instead of powering it from RX.

I'll do some more testing but I know the pinched fuel line messed up the ECU trim setting and I let those reset with the way eric said to do it.

In the future, if someone complain of flameout at 1/2 throttle, mention that even a small sharp bend or small pressure on fuel line can cause it!
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:56 PM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

I would have to see it... that does not sound normal. I have quite a bit of time on the brand/ECU and the only time there is erratic/erroneous RPM is:

1) ECU battery not plugged in
2) Momentarily when voltage is being applied to the burner and the starter motor has not begun. ("Burner On" phase)

Besides those two scenerios - the RPM readings should be rock solid. Digital servos or not.

The other thing is, I wouldn't second guess the wiring and circuitry of the unit. Rest assured that the people that have designed the motor and the ECU are very experienced as they are directly the pioneers in the hobby of micro turbines. If there needed to be a capacitor in the line - they would've put it there - and YES, they probably have thought of everything. Now, am I saying that these things don't malfunction... NO! Sometimes they do. Again, a video would be helpful and I would do extensive ground runs at all throttle settings before flying that overweight airplane with this questionable condition.
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:57 PM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Smitty, here is the video, the darn sound did not come through, basically here is what I did on the vid:
Started off by showing the RPM reads 0 and that I have the ECU powered by the RX
Showed you the wire mess I made troubleshooting all this
Then I show the RPM wire how it goes outside of the air craft.
the 30 to 40 mark I am turning on the radio
Then I move the sticks around on the radio, doesnt matter which ones, and I show it reads RPM, some over 150K
I made the video in 10 seconds so if you need more clarification I can make another.


I am working on cleaning up my wire mess, I basically gutted the turbine and everything out trying to fix this issue.
Also note, If I unplug the servos, and move the sticks around, I get not RPM reading, so it is being caused by servo noise in the power source. Others have had this issue and fixed it one of the two ways I talked about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bp6b...=youtube_gdata
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:30 PM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

I've never seen that before...
I have a series of questions for you, please answer each one:

1) Are you sure everything is plugged in correctly now as per the manual? All polarities are correct, etc. ?
2) Do you have a different receiver that you can plug into the ECU temporarily? (and connect a digital servo) If so, try the same thing in the video and report results.
3) Also, with setup as per manual, unplug the EGT lead to the ECU and like in the video, wiggle your tx sticks, report results.
4) Next, with setup as per manual, unplug the starter/igniter cable (multiplex connector) and like in the video, wiggle your tx sticks, report results.
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Old 07-25-2012, 05:06 PM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Smitty here are the answers:
1) Everything is plugged in correctly, anything wrong would cause the turbine not to run. There is very little that can be reversed on this anyways, RPM and EGT is about it, both are confirmed correct
2) I tried a 7 channel RX, a real not cline, from futaba. I plugged in the ecu, powered it through the RX, and plugged in 1 servo from the aileron, same issue with the rpm
3) disconnecting the EGT had no effect
4) discconnecting the starter and burner line caused a way more pronounced fluctuation in the RPM. Normallhy I have to apply stick input to get the RPM to jump, however, when I plugged that it would jump all over, and stick imput would show even higher RPM.

Now what?
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Old 07-25-2012, 07:51 PM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Here's a thread too that talks about this, there are a few out there.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1069271/printable.htm
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:00 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Essy,

I was fully expecting one of the isolations to stop the problem and lead us down another path. I have never seen that before. The thread you sent a link to is nearly ten years old - the ECU has gone through many, many revisions since then so I would take that into consideration as well. I have to officially say that this is above my pay grade! I will follow with interest!
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Old 07-28-2012, 09:24 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

...
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:04 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

essyou35:

if you still have doubts about the performance of our system, and truly believe there to be an issue with one or more components included with your turbine, please pack up EVERYTHING in the black supplied case and ship to my office here in Florida. I will bench test your complete system (I use JR) with my Rx and Tx and the supplied battery for your ECU. My Rx battery will be a 6v 5 cell niMh pack I use for bench testing. Any issue found (or not found) will be reported on this forum. If you prefer an alternate (non company) source to send to for testing, I can arrange this as well.

Please advise as to your intentions.

Thank you,
Eric
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Old 07-29-2012, 10:29 PM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

Your system could have a flaw, Eric but its most likely the inStall. let see how good JC customer service is. so far I rate it a 5 because you came out saying it wasn not the system and that it is perfect and THERE IS NOT WAY ANYTHING can go wrong.
GOOD LUCK
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Old 07-30-2012, 06:01 AM
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Default RE: Rabbit problems

LIttlepiton, is 5 good or bad? LOL. Eric is trying to help me but I think a phone call would go a long way... Online support only sucks!

Eric thanks for the offer, I will consider it. I have put 2 hours on the turbine troubleshooting and I havent even flown yet!
It appears there are two main "things":

The RPM reading fluctuates and it is very sensitive to the lipo (3s life) charge status. Whent he lipo nears 60% capacity, the noise gets worse and I get flame outs randomly, and failt to starts, if I keep the lipo charged the noise is filtered out for the most part. The thing that sucks is it detects engine running very fastly, and goes to switover mode too soon, as it is reading hihg RPM due to the noise when lipo at 50% or less. What this means is as the 3s life gets lower, the noise gets worse. I tried another 3s life same issue. I try multiple Rx, same issue.

The other thing, my fault, is how sensitive the main fuel line off the pump to the turbine is. Any type of pressure on it, pressure that does not even appear to squeaze it all, will cause a flame out above 50% thorttle. I believe it is the ECU causing the flameout, it detects increasing pump PW but not corresponding expected RPM and shuts down. I would expect the turbine to keep running just not put out power!

The ony thing that will make me happy is if you take this turbine back and either refund my money or give me a new Rabbit. Is that a possibility?

I am flying a 29 lb 1/8 scale jet with this and a flameout will ruin my day!
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